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Old 01-02-2017, 09:31 PM   #876
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Originally Posted by TheUnclean View Post
seems like the dish cut would be a more cost intensive option over just grinding down the side a little.
The chamfered bolts also have the dish-cut, they just possess a chamfer on the one side as well.
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Old 01-02-2017, 10:28 PM   #877
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I emailed this to Molot usa :
There is a new 10 round vepr 54 magazine out, made by csspecs. After releasing the magazine it was discovered that vepr 54's made after 2014 have a different style of lug on the bolt which is causing issues while using this magazine. There used to be a small triangle section on the left side of the bottom lug that was removed, after 2014 this section is not removed. Me and several others have been trying to figure out the reason for this, with no luck. If you know the reason for this change or can contact someone who does know, will you let me know. If you need more help understanding exactly what I am talking about, just send me an email address and I'll email you photo's of these 2 different bolt lug types. Thanks, JW
Let's see if they reply, maybe we can get some light shed on this.
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Old 01-02-2017, 11:53 PM   #878
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The chamfered bolts also have the dish-cut, they just possess a chamfer on the one side as well.
My 2014 have chamfer but no dish. Its flat in the middle. Ill take some pics this weekend when i get home
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Old 01-03-2017, 01:08 AM   #879
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My 2014 is chamfered but, no dish. Did they change it in mid 2014 for some reason?
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Old 01-03-2017, 01:19 AM   #880
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mines a 2015 with the dish cut. once my dummys get here ill start doing the filing work unless by some miracle they cycle ok. how much of the lugs actually do the job of locking the bolt? looking through my magwell i can see at least 70% of the bottom lug just kinda sitting in the open.
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Old 01-03-2017, 01:51 AM   #881
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mines a 2015 with the dish cut. once my dummys get here ill start doing the filing work unless by some miracle they cycle ok. how much of the lugs actually do the job of locking the bolt? looking through my magwell i can see at least 70% of the bottom lug just kinda sitting in the open.
Ok, the bottom lug, which is the only one you'll be working on does lock in, but only the right side of it. If your looking at your bolt thru the bottom of your mag well, you will see that sharp edge pointing right at you, that's the edge you need to file. Pull your charging handle back far enough to make the bolt twist and you'll see exactly where the right side of the lug twist in and out from behind your trunion. That whole right corner slides in behind there. None of the left side locks or engages anywhere else on the rifle, but that bottom lug does reinforce your bolt face so you don't want to take too much off. Take off that hard edge and round it off until it pushes your bullet down instead of slamming into it. You don't want to or need to get close to the fornt of the lug, the end nearest the barrel, But on mine I did also round off the hard edge on the back of the lug right in the dish cut part, just to ensure it wouldn't snag the bullet case rim, which only happened when I was shooting undersized shorter projectiles. If you do it right you'll get a smooth action that works with any combination of mag or bullet. You might not be able to bump fire with sgm mags though, so Ive heard.

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Old 01-03-2017, 02:01 AM   #882
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My 2014 is chamfered but, no dish. Did they change it in mid 2014 for some reason?
Wow, so this means they went from chamfer with dish / to chamfer no dish / to no chamfer with dish. WTF ? So now we have 3 lug types. I'm wondering, without that dish cut, does it chew up the rim of your case or anything weird like that?
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Old 01-03-2017, 02:30 AM   #883
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My 2014 have chamfer but no dish. Its flat in the middle. Ill take some pics this weekend when i get home
I'd like to see that picture. You said earlier that your rifle cycles like butter with the csspecs mags, I'm guessing it does fine with the molot as well, but they still changed it again adding the dish and doing away with the chamfer. I wonder if the back of your bolt knocks hard against your bullet case. With most normal bullets the projectile makes contact first and moves the case rim out of the way. From a photo we should be able to tell where things are touching at.
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:25 AM   #884
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Ok, the bottom lug, which is the only one you'll be working on does lock in, but only the right side of it. If your looking at your bolt thru the bottom of your mag well, you will see that sharp edge pointing right at you, that's the edge you need to file. Pull your charging handle back far enough to make the bolt twist and you'll see exactly where the right side of the lug twist in and out from behind your trunion. That whole right corner slides in behind there. None of the left side locks or engages anywhere else on the rifle, but that bottom lug does reinforce your bolt face so you don't want to take too much off. Take off that hard edge and round it off until it pushes your bullet down instead of slamming into it. You don't want to or need to get close to the fornt of the lug, the end nearest the barrel, But on mine I did also round off the hard edge on the back of the lug right in the dish cut part, just to ensure it wouldn't snag the bullet case rim, which only happened when I was shooting undersized shorter projectiles. If you do it right you'll get a smooth action that works with any combination of mag or bullet. You might not be able to bump fire with sgm mags though, so Ive heard.
thanks for the info. i have no interest in bump fire and avoided sgm mags like the plague after reading so much bad things about them.
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Old 01-03-2017, 06:35 AM   #885
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My 23" 2014 VEPR has the chamfer without the dish. I haven't used my mags yet but I will take them out this weekend.
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Old 01-03-2017, 08:51 AM   #886
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Originally Posted by jeremiahwillis View Post
I emailed this to Molot usa :
There is a new 10 round vepr 54 magazine out, made by csspecs. After releasing the magazine it was discovered that vepr 54's made after 2014 have a different style of lug on the bolt which is causing issues while using this magazine. There used to be a small triangle section on the left side of the bottom lug that was removed, after 2014 this section is not removed. Me and several others have been trying to figure out the reason for this, with no luck. If you know the reason for this change or can contact someone who does know, will you let me know. If you need more help understanding exactly what I am talking about, just send me an email address and I'll email you photo's of these 2 different bolt lug types. Thanks, JW
Let's see if they reply, maybe we can get some light shed on this.

Did you know that you can contact the manufacturer Molot direct by email? http://molot.biz/en/contacts.html I sorta wonder if a US based distributor would have direct access to their engineering department.
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:00 AM   #887
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Did you know that you can contact the manufacturer Molot direct by email? http://molot.biz/en/contacts.html I sorta wonder if a US based distributor would have direct access to their engineering department.
Do they speak english ? If their u.s. people can't help Ill try that. I'm sure I can manage some broken Russian, those extra letters though. Thanks
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:32 AM   #888
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Molot has in the past shown a complete disinterest in the US market.

And I doubt they are willing to help a magazine maker when they probably make more off their magazines than they do off the rifle.

I do remind people. I have the ability to replace your magazines, I CANNOT and will not be able to replace your rifle if you damage the bolt by modifying it.

We are working on a solution if you can just sit tight for a couple weeks. We have been having trouble tracking down a rifle local, the CA rush added to the holiday buying season emptied the shelves. I have a shop a couple hours away that may have one.

Just chill for a bit.
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Old 01-03-2017, 11:46 AM   #889
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Molot has in the past shown a complete disinterest in the US market.

And I doubt they are willing to help a magazine maker when they probably make more off their magazines than they do off the rifle.

I do remind people. I have the ability to replace your magazines, I CANNOT and will not be able to replace your rifle if you damage the bolt.

We are working on a solution if you can just sit tight for a couple weeks. We have been having trouble tracking down a rifle local, the CA rush added to the holiday buying season emptied the shelves. I have a shop a couple hours away that may have one.

Just chill for a bit.


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Old 01-03-2017, 12:50 PM   #890
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Damn, I was sick since Christmas and this happens? Whats going on here? certain versions of VEPRs dont chamber a round with csspecs mags? Mine ran flawless picking up each round but now im getting kind of scared. Better check my bolt to see any damage. Think ive ran at least about 200+ rounds now through my VEPR with csspecs mag without a hitch. Only problem was failure to fire and that was because of old commy rounds.
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Old 01-03-2017, 01:09 PM   #891
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... I have 10 PPU cased dummy rounds (from Dummybullet.com -- I'd highly recommend following the advice provided by CSSPECS [on the included orange paper] about using dummy rounds as someone on vepr.org had a kaboom exactly as described). I loaded up the first magazine and the rifle wouldn't pick up the rounds out of the magazine. I then unloaded and reloaded the magazine. No dice. I then loaded up my 2nd magazine. It seems to cycle just fine. So I reloaded the original magazine and tried hand cycling again it (rather violently even) and still no dice. It won't even pick up the first round. I triple checked the fit and it is perfect. I must be a victim of tolerance stack...
Update: I heard from CSSPECS and tried what was suggested and it worked. Both magazines now feed properly. Their suggestion, for anyone else who has run across this problem, is below:

"Odds are the ramp on the back of the magazine has a little more open finish on it.. Try this, load the magazine with 8 round and then add a steel cased one on top, then push the steel cased one back into the magazine against the ramps on the back working it back and forth about a dozen times. Now retry your dummy rounds.

The brass is really soft and snags on the ramps when the finish is new, once the finish gets rubbed a little it will be smooth."
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Old 01-03-2017, 02:23 PM   #892
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I am just trying to figure out why they changed the lug twice, why they changed it at all. Especially when the first configuration seems best. The chamfer cut is superior.
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Old 01-03-2017, 02:36 PM   #893
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Damn, I was sick since Christmas and this happens? Whats going on here? certain versions of VEPRs dont chamber a round with csspecs mags? Mine ran flawless picking up each round but now im getting kind of scared. Better check my bolt to see any damage. Think ive ran at least about 200+ rounds now through my VEPR with csspecs mag without a hitch. Only problem was failure to fire and that was because of old commy rounds.
Check out csspecs thread on " possible issue with different bolts on verp 54s " or something like that. Chances are you have a vepr older than 2015, with a chamfer cut lug.
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:53 PM   #894
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I was just thinking about what csspecs said "Molot has in the past shown a complete disinterest in the US market. And I doubt they are willing to help a magazine maker when they probably make more off their magazines than they do off the rifle." What if they changed that lug, just to ensure that people would have to buy their mags ? Think about it, at the time the only aftermarket magazine was sgm"s, and they had a 10 rounder. So who would want to buy a $50 5 round mag from them when they could buy a $40 10 round sgm mag. By changing that lug they really screwed up the way the sgm mags work, bad, almost like that's what it was intended to do. Maybe they tried removing the dish cut, that didn't seem to do the trick so then they did away with the chamfer cut and boom, sgm mags became useless, while only molot mags would work right. Csspecs reminded me of one very important fact, company's don't run on logic and what is best for the consumer, they run on greed and the bottom line. What do you guys think ?
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Old 01-03-2017, 05:35 PM   #895
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I'd like to see that picture. You said earlier that your rifle cycles like butter with the csspecs mags, I'm guessing it does fine with the molot as well, but they still changed it again adding the dish and doing away with the chamfer. I wonder if the back of your bolt knocks hard against your bullet case. With most normal bullets the projectile makes contact first and moves the case rim out of the way. From a photo we should be able to tell where things are touching at.
With Molot and SGM mags i test it last year on slow, rapid and bump fire. No problems with Molot mags, SGM mags didnt like bump fire but worked fine on slow and rapid fire.
I didnt have a chance to test CSSpecs mags with live ammo but i did tested with 10 A Zoom snap caps and 10 reloaded withoit primer and powder. I did pull charging handle as fast i could in many different rifle positions, and no hickups whats so ever. I hope live ammo will be work same way, maybe recoil may affect top cartridge in the mag but wont know till i test it

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Old 01-03-2017, 06:53 PM   #896
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I was just thinking about what csspecs said "Molot has in the past shown a complete disinterest in the US market. And I doubt they are willing to help a magazine maker when they probably make more off their magazines than they do off the rifle." What if they changed that lug, just to ensure that people would have to buy their mags ? Think about it, at the time the only aftermarket magazine was sgm"s, and they had a 10 rounder. So who would want to buy a $50 5 round mag from them when they could buy a $40 10 round sgm mag. By changing that lug they really screwed up the way the sgm mags work, bad, almost like that's what it was intended to do. Maybe they tried removing the dish cut, that didn't seem to do the trick so then they did away with the chamfer cut and boom, sgm mags became useless, while only molot mags would work right. Csspecs reminded me of one very important fact, company's don't run on logic and what is best for the consumer, they run on greed and the bottom line. What do you guys think ?
as much of a conspiracy as this sounds it does make sense. 50 for a plastic 5 round mag is absurd so i can totally see this as a design choice to limit us to the factory 5s and keeping the money rolling in.
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Old 01-03-2017, 07:06 PM   #897
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as much of a conspiracy as this sounds it does make sense. 50 for a plastic 5 round mag is absurd so i can totally see this as a design choice to limit us to the factory 5s and keeping the money rolling in.
The timing seems about right, didn't sgm release their 10 round mag sometime in 2012 ? that gave molot a year or 2 to notice the mags, the loss in sells, and figure out what to do about it.
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Old 01-03-2017, 07:21 PM   #898
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I am just trying to figure out why they changed the lug twice, why they changed it at all. Especially when the first configuration seems best. The chamfer cut is superior.
So I went and looked at the bolt in the rifle and realized that the section of the bolt lug that is a problem is just sitting out in the air which makes the redesign that much more baffling.



I'm going to try to get ahold of someone further up the line at FIME group and see if they could pass along a request/demand to Molot to fix this, since it seems to be a very counter productive alteration.

I've been told for a long time I am not to suggest any bolt mods ever. But even the partners are considering a change in this stance in this case.
Only about 1/3 of it even goes in the pocket. I don't see how having the chamfer AND the dished cut would cause any problems at all. The chamfer is tiny anyway and on the far other side of the lug.

I'm still looking toward a magazine alteration to fix this..
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Old 01-03-2017, 07:33 PM   #899
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So I went and looked at the bolt in the rifle and realized that the section of the bolt lug that is a problem is just sitting out in the air which makes the redesign that much more baffling.

Only about 1/3 of it even goes in the pocket.

exactly what i said earlier it makes no sense (beyond what JW said about the change to restrict magazine usage to factory). the part they changed doesnt even do anyhting besides be in the way.
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Old 01-03-2017, 07:36 PM   #900
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The timing seems about right, didn't sgm release their 10 round mag sometime in 2012 ? that gave molot a year or 2 to notice the mags, the loss in sells, and figure out what to do about it.
pretty close to it. sgm was also working on a double to single stack 20 round. last i heard on that was from 2014 or so and 2 years later it seems the 20 round got abandoned. maybe because of the lug change causing issues with the 10. maybe smg mags arnt crap. maybe the lug change led to all the bad experiences with them. idk. coincidence?
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Old 01-03-2017, 07:53 PM   #901
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It could be.. I honestly did not find the issues that are often reported with SGM mags when we tested them (I was looking for their problem to eliminated it in our design). Sadly my sample guns did not have the different bolt pattern so it did not show up.

However SGM may have also requested the change in an effort to eliminate the back tear off issue that they had early on, which happens when the third lug strikes the rim of a cartridge in a magazine that has rim locked, so every rim lock blows the back off the magazine.
I think SGM and WPA are connected somehow, and WPA was the importer during the time the change was made. I sold vepr .308 magazines in volume to WPA back before SGM had their version, and googling the mailing address brought me to an older page for SGM that had the same mailing address and contact name.

I don't think they intentionally screwed themselves, but my brother often says "change one thing and you change ten things".. Basically that one small seemingly simple alteration often causes another issue. In this case changing one section changed how the thing worked.
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Old 01-03-2017, 07:56 PM   #902
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2015 built Legion VEPR 54r with scalloped bolt - checking in & standing by.

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Old 01-03-2017, 10:03 PM   #903
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Ok, From that photo that csspecs posted on the bolt issues thread, It looks like the old " chamfer cut " also had the dish cut as well, from the photo he posted of it in the mag well you can tell that there's only a chamfer cut and no dish. So we only have 2 bolt types. If sgm really did have the factory change the lug to accommodate their magazine, then that's just funny as hell, because without the chamfer you get this crap. I never experienced the rim lock issue with the sgm mags, but I did realize it was a possibility. So this means I have the only bolt lug with a chamfer and a dish cut, Ive got the best vepr in the world, Hell yeah!
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:18 PM   #904
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Ok, From that photo that csspecs posted on the bolt issues thread, It looks like the old " chamfer cut " also had the dish cut as well, from the photo he posted of it in the mag well you can tell that there's only a chamfer cut and no dish. So we only have 2 bolt types. If sgm really did have the factory change the lug to accommodate their magazine, then that's just funny as hell, because without the chamfer you get this crap. I never experienced the rim lock issue with the sgm mags, but I did realize it was a possibility. So this means I have the only bolt lug with a chamfer and a dish cut, Ive got the best vepr in the world, Hell yeah!
ill be modifying mine after i get my dummy rounds to test. them and a file. waiting patiently for stuff.
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:51 PM   #905
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ill be modifying mine after i get my dummy rounds to test. them and a file. waiting patiently for stuff.
I'm going to see if I can get some sort of schematic from the rifle manufacturer. I think that the current bolt is not a bad design, but that the chamfer needs to be there.

I can get the dimensions off of our test rifle bolts to prevent guessing.

And I am still not saying to go and file.. But it is looking more like a decent idea.
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:57 PM   #906
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my 23" x54r Vepr was made December 2014, and has the dish cut. No chamfer at all, just the dish.
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Old 01-03-2017, 11:12 PM   #907
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I'm going to see if I can get some sort of schematic from the rifle manufacturer. I think that the current bolt is not a bad design, but that the chamfer needs to be there.

I can get the dimensions off of our test rifle bolts to prevent guessing.

And I am still not saying to go and file.. But it is looking more like a decent idea.
it seems to be the easiest option at the moment. as long as dont go to far forward for the cut and hit the bolt face. really wonder if they couldve made that lug half the size. just big enough to fill the point where it locks in. it seems like the 3rd lug is to big for how much of it actually does the job of locking. arnt the x39 veprs only a 2 lug bolt? for the record my vepr is a 20in made in june 2015 with the dish cut.
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Old 01-03-2017, 11:32 PM   #908
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The timing seems about right, didn't sgm release their 10 round mag sometime in 2012 ? that gave molot a year or 2 to notice the mags, the loss in sells, and figure out what to do about it.
I don't think that would be the case, because at that time there were basically no Molot 5 rounders for sale in any stores anywhere. They barely imported any extra mags to begin with, they mainly only came with rifles, and then the whole confusion with the sanctions that caused even more delays in getting more mags state side.

IIRC, it was basically from the end of 2012 to the end of 2014 that there were no new 54r factory mags that came in from any importer.
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Old 01-05-2017, 06:02 PM   #909
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Just cycle tested. Factory mags cycle ok but the bolt still scraps up the bullet pretty good. And then the ossue of how mean the gun is to brass cases. But i guess thats how the vepr is to brass. So imo this cut NEEDS to be there as even with factory mags the bolt is dinging and scraping the rounds.
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:20 PM   #910
jeremiahwillis
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Originally Posted by TheUnclean View Post
Just cycle tested. Factory mags cycle ok but the bolt still scraps up the bullet pretty good. And then the ossue of how mean the gun is to brass cases. But i guess thats how the vepr is to brass. So imo this cut NEEDS to be there as even with factory mags the bolt is dinging and scraping the rounds.
I think some people just don't notice the bullet damage, seems like most of the time the rifle will still cycle ok with molot mags. I first only noticed it with different ammo, WCUBED only noticed it with specific ammo, but Pregnar says his does fine with all sorts of ammo, and he's using 19 different molot magazines ? Its odd the factory would keep making bolts without the chamfer, surely they've noticed what that lug is doing to bullets and like I said before, It seems like it would be at least a safety concern.
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