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Old 01-01-2017, 09:52 AM   #841
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"Grind the bolt down" on any firearm is a bad idea. Removing case hardening of an unknown type of steel with an unknown depth on a 60,000 PSI pressure lug is a bad idea. This is a bad idea.
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Old 01-01-2017, 11:20 AM   #842
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Originally Posted by DkHelmet View Post
"Grind the bolt down" on any firearm is a bad idea. Removing case hardening of an unknown type of steel with an unknown depth on a 60,000 PSI pressure lug is a bad idea. This is a bad idea.
Tell that the the SKS guys doing the bolt mod for years.

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ps - too bad about the bolt redesign. a smith or handy person could probably reprofile it to match, but the average guy without the experience runs the risk of removing too much material and rendering his weapon dangerous.
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Old 01-01-2017, 11:23 AM   #843
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CSSPEC .... I know this might not be the best time to pitch an idea, but have you considered doing a run of "Russian Slabside" mags? I was just looking for the group that aimsurplus has for sale at $60.00 and was wondering if there might be a market sub $50 for modern, American made versions.

Happy New Year to yall and hope the bolt issue turns out to be minor!

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Old 01-01-2017, 11:38 AM   #844
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I'm getting tired of seeing this same thing. Everyone bashed sgm because of what might have been this same issue. Now these csspec mags are sweet, I don't think I can watch this happen without saying just grind that edge on the left side of your bottom lug down. It takes 5 minutes. Then, amazingly, your vepr will eat anything. We probably could of had 20 round mags by now if it wasn't for that damn bottom lug.
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"Grind the bolt down" on any firearm is a bad idea. Removing case hardening of an unknown type of steel with an unknown depth on a 60,000 PSI pressure lug is a bad idea. This is a bad idea.
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Tell that the the SKS guys doing the bolt mod for years.

-Dave

ps - too bad about the bolt redesign. a smith or handy person could probably reprofile it to match, but the average guy without the experience runs the risk of removing too much material and rendering his weapon dangerous.
I'd have to say that modifying the bolt is a bad idea. I know the SKS guys have been doing this for years, but they don't suffer the spare parts issues that Molot has. I've been trying to get WPA (the importer of my Vepr-54R) to sell me a spare top cover for the last year, with no luck whatsoever (mine was slightly tweaked when I experienced an out-of-battery detonation of a round)). Not only is communication with them awful, and dodgy at best, they simply can't get the parts. I can't imagine the nightmare of trying to get another bolt.

I can also attest that the need for spare extractor claws for the 54R Veprs was so dire that last year a machinist on Vepr.org had to resort to manufacturing extractor claws for himself and other members because WPA and FIME were unable to get parts to support their imports.
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:22 PM   #845
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No, Its not a bad idea, Its a great idea and it works great. I didn't go into detail about how. But if you look at csspecs thread on the 2 bolt lug types you'll see the " chamfer" cut bolt lugs on the older 54r's. If you have a newer vepr it won't have that little edge ground down. You won't be hurting anything, unless your a moron with zero craftsman skills at all. All that hard edge accomplishes is screwing up your bullets and causing issues like the one csspecs is experiencing now. Look at that thread and that photo, just do that. I did mine over 1000 rounds ago but I put a bit more of a curve in mine, compared to what the older 54r's have.
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:29 PM   #846
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No, Its not a bad idea, Its a great idea and it works great. I didn't go into detail about how. But if you look at csspecs thread on the 2 bolt lug types you'll see the " chamfer" cut bolt lugs on the older 54r's. If you have a newer vepr it won't have that little edge ground down. You won't be hurting anything, unless your a moron with zero craftsman skills at all. All that hard edge accomplishes is screwing up your bullets and causing issues like the one csspecs is experiencing now. Look at that thread and that photo, just do that. I did mine over 1000 rounds ago but I put a bit more of a curve in mine, compared to what the older 54r's have.
Mind emailing me a picture?

I am not going to start suggesting bolt modifications. Because outside of the forum most people are not comfortable with modifying anything. So I need to solve this on my end if possible.
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:44 PM   #847
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Old 01-01-2017, 04:39 PM   #848
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I've been looking a lot at my Vepr (2011 model with the chamfer lug), and it seems to me that as long as the only change was the dish cut, then adding the same kind of chamfer to the dish cut lug shouldn't be any cause for concern.

If there are changes to the rifle itself along with the dish cut lug, then there might be a potential risk that would have to be investigated.

Yes, modifying the mag would be the first and best approach, but if the csspecs mag design is the best we can get then modifying the bolt might not be that big of an issue as an alternative.
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Old 01-01-2017, 05:54 PM   #849
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IF you do decide to grind down your lug, do it with a file, not a dremel. You don't want to put any heat into the part, a hand file will do the job without changing hardness.
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Old 01-01-2017, 07:24 PM   #850
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I'm a bit leery about grinding down the lug. Molot must of had a reason to go to the second cup design. I just wonder what that reason was.
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Old 01-01-2017, 07:49 PM   #851
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I wonder that too. If you never used anything other than the molot mags then that "chamfer" cut would simply be unnecessary. I didn't know they used to make them with the "chamfer" cut until just now, usually the bullet wouldn't be forward far enough to be touching that lug until after the lug has made it's twist and started coming back. I first did this so my vepr would work with the sgm mags, they had a tendency of letting the last bullet slide way forward, getting caught on that lug. I also had issues using different types of ammo. I love this modification, since Ive done it, well, I can't remember the last malfunction I've had. I can use any kind of ammo. It seems to really add to the reliability of the rifle, there are all sorts of things that can cause your bullet to end up in between those lugs, and this ensures they will feed. Actually this probably makes your rifle safer, before mine used to knock the projectile out spilling powder everywhere. This could even help accuracy, the lug won't be screwing up the tips of your bullets. As for anyone concerned about whether or not the bolt is still strong enough, I guarantee you mine is just fine, I've loaded and shot some VERY hot loads, a few maybe too hot. My bolt is still here. I've ran a whole crate ( 880) of mil surplus, about 100 or so PPU, and maybe 200 hand loads thru it since I fixed it.
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Old 01-01-2017, 08:15 PM   #852
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i have dummy 54r rounds on the way. given that the issue is when the bolt does its recoil stroke it hits the bullet of the waiting round this should be easy to create this situation using dummy rounds right?
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Old 01-01-2017, 08:27 PM   #853
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I replied to the email I got from csspecs that I have a 2014 with the dish cut. Tonight I loaded a single round into one of their mags, and I could not chamber the round.

Not a big deal at the moment as current upstate NY weather is not enjoyable shooting for me. I will wait for the dust to settle before making any decision.

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Originally Posted by jeremiahwillis View Post
I wonder that too. If you never used anything other than the molot mags then that "chamfer" cut would simply be unnecessary. I didn't know they used to make them with the "chamfer" cut until just now, usually the bullet wouldn't be forward far enough to be touching that lug until after the lug has made it's twist and started coming back. I first did this so my vepr would work with the sgm mags, they had a tendency of letting the last bullet slide way forward, getting caught on that lug. I also had issues using different types of ammo. I love this modification, since Ive done it, well, I can't remember the last malfunction I've had. I can use any kind of ammo. It seems to really add to the reliability of the rifle, there are all sorts of things that can cause your bullet to end up in between those lugs, and this ensures they will feed. Actually this probably makes your rifle safer, before mine used to knock the projectile out spilling powder everywhere. This could even help accuracy, the lug won't be screwing up the tips of your bullets. As for anyone concerned about whether or not the bolt is still strong enough, I guarantee you mine is just fine, I've loaded and shot some VERY hot loads, a few maybe too hot. My bolt is still here. I've ran a whole crate ( 880) of mil surplus, about 100 or so PPU, and maybe 200 hand loads thru it since I fixed it.
Interesting. When I got my VEPR nearly a year ago, I first grabbed some surplus brass cased ammo, and had nothing but trouble, and I only had the 5 round Molot mags. I had heard that the VEPR is tough on brass cased, but I had a few rounds where the bullet was knocked right out of the brass, others where the round did not load correctly or at all, the cases were heavily damaged on anything that did fire, and even a couple times where the bolt got locked up completely and I had to pound on it to get it open.

This particular tin of ammo hadn't even been shot out of my Mosins yet so I assumed it was the powder, since it was getting rather old, being from the 50's, that was causing erratic operation of the semi-auto. I switched to running steel cased tulammo exclusively since then, and haven't had any serious problems, except that I've noticed a few of the ejected steel cases have damage to the leading edge. Now I wonder how much of my problems with the brass cased ammo were related to the dish cut lug.
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Old 01-01-2017, 09:50 PM   #854
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i have dummy 54r rounds on the way. given that the issue is when the bolt does its recoil stroke it hits the bullet of the waiting round this should be easy to create this situation using dummy rounds right?
Should be very easy. Using the csspec mag, a normal sized bullet will be sitting far enough forward for almost 1/4 inch of the tip of the bullet to be sitting directly under the bolt lugs. As you pull the bolt carrier back the bolt with its lugs will twist 1/8 of a turn counter clockwise. If you charge your rifle while holding it upside down without a magazine in you can see this action. That hard edge on the bottom lug will jam against the bullet, or scar it, But if you file it down the way I did in those photo's, instead of causing a problem the bullet is gently pushed down a bit as it gracefully rolls around the rounded edge of that lug.
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Old 01-01-2017, 09:57 PM   #855
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I replied to the email I got from csspecs that I have a 2014 with the dish cut. Tonight I loaded a single round into one of their mags, and I could not chamber the round.

Not a big deal at the moment as current upstate NY weather is not enjoyable shooting for me. I will wait for the dust to settle before making any decision.



Interesting. When I got my VEPR nearly a year ago, I first grabbed some surplus brass cased ammo, and had nothing but trouble, and I only had the 5 round Molot mags. I had heard that the VEPR is tough on brass cased, but I had a few rounds where the bullet was knocked right out of the brass, others where the round did not load correctly or at all, the cases were heavily damaged on anything that did fire, and even a couple times where the bolt got locked up completely and I had to pound on it to get it open.

This particular tin of ammo hadn't even been shot out of my Mosins yet so I assumed it was the powder, since it was getting rather old, being from the 50's, that was causing erratic operation of the semi-auto. I switched to running steel cased tulammo exclusively since then, and haven't had any serious problems, except that I've noticed a few of the ejected steel cases have damage to the leading edge. Now I wonder how much of my problems with the brass cased ammo were related to the dish cut lug.
The way you describe it, It sounds exactly like the lug issue. I too first ran into it using some ammo I had hand loaded, It was sized or shaped differently, maybe those bullets of yours were different in some way causing them to sit farther forward, or for part of the projectile to be closer to that lug. But the projectiles being knocked out and the action not opening are definitely caused by the square lug. I'm not sure about the marks on your casings. Usually my vepr just puts a nice dent in the middle of the case where it hits the edge of the dust cover while being ejected.
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Old 01-01-2017, 10:00 PM   #856
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IF you do decide to grind down your lug, do it with a file, not a dremel. You don't want to put any heat into the part, a hand file will do the job without changing hardness.
THIS!!!! Plus you will only pull a bit of material off at a time. Less is more!

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Old 01-01-2017, 10:17 PM   #857
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Also, WCUBED, even if the brass cased bullets are the exact same size as the steel cased, you just might not notice the steel cased bullets getting knocked. The steel is a lot stronger than the brass, so maybe even if the steel is getting hit, your just not noticing it because the case is strong enough to hold on to the projectile, allowing the bullet to bounce out of the way without ripping the projectile out or bending everything, Then you send it down range and the evidence is gone. I'm sure that if it was sitting up in there far enough though, it would still cause your action to jam shut.
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Old 01-01-2017, 10:37 PM   #858
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out of curiosity would ceramic rods for knife sharpening work to file the bolt lug? i dont doubt it will cut the material just wondering if id be there for a week.
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Old 01-01-2017, 11:34 PM   #859
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You would be there for a week. Its not incredibly hard metal, but that's a lot of material for a ceramic rod, a lower grit stone maybe, a file, hell even 40 or 80 grit sand paper would be better, then you could polish it with the ceramic.
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Old 01-02-2017, 01:16 AM   #860
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My 2014 Vepr have chamfer edge but no dish in the middle. Cycle like butter with CSSpecs mags. If i didnt have chamfer edge i would filed down. I dont know why some guys are scared to file down but no problems filing magazines. I get it rifle cost alot and no spare parts, but its not like you gonna use angle grinder

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Old 01-02-2017, 02:46 AM   #861
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My 2014 Vepr have chamfer edge but no dish in the middle. Cie like butter with CSSpecs mags. If i didnt have chamfer edge i would filed down. I dont know why some guys are scared to file down but no problems filing magazines. I get it rifle cost alot and nl spare parts, but its not like you gonna use angle grinder
most likely because its on the bolt lug. but yeah only removing like 1 millimeter of material.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:39 AM   #862
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The way you describe it, It sounds exactly like the lug issue. I too first ran into it using some ammo I had hand loaded, It was sized or shaped differently, maybe those bullets of yours were different in some way causing them to sit farther forward, or for part of the projectile to be closer to that lug. But the projectiles being knocked out and the action not opening are definitely caused by the square lug. I'm not sure about the marks on your casings. Usually my vepr just puts a nice dent in the middle of the case where it hits the edge of the dust cover while being ejected.
I had saved some of the casing after it happened, but have since thrown them out. Too bad, I could have posted some pictures. In any case, there was a good bit of the edge of the brass neck that was folded over from the lug contacting it, and this was with the Molot mags.

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Also, WCUBED, even if the brass cased bullets are the exact same size as the steel cased, you just might not notice the steel cased bullets getting knocked. The steel is a lot stronger than the brass, so maybe even if the steel is getting hit, your just not noticing it because the case is strong enough to hold on to the projectile, allowing the bullet to bounce out of the way without ripping the projectile out or bending everything, Then you send it down range and the evidence is gone. I'm sure that if it was sitting up in there far enough though, it would still cause your action to jam shut.
I thought I had seen a bit of occasional damage to the neck of the tulammo, but like I said, I have since thrown them out. Regardless, I'm sure you are right.

This says to me that this issue is more of a Molot problem with the redesigned lug, than with the csspecs magazine. There is a Molot representative on the VEPR forum. I wonder if he could provide insight into this redesigned lug.

Perhaps it was just a case of skipping a step in the manufacturing process as a cost savings measure?
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Old 01-02-2017, 11:36 AM   #863
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I wonder that too. If you never used anything other than the molot mags then that "chamfer" cut would simply be unnecessary. I didn't know they used to make them with the "chamfer" cut until just now, usually the bullet wouldn't be forward far enough to be touching that lug until after the lug has made it's twist and started coming back. I first did this so my vepr would work with the sgm mags, they had a tendency of letting the last bullet slide way forward, getting caught on that lug. I also had issues using different types of ammo. I love this modification, since Ive done it, well, I can't remember the last malfunction I've had. I can use any kind of ammo. It seems to really add to the reliability of the rifle, there are all sorts of things that can cause your bullet to end up in between those lugs, and this ensures they will feed. Actually this probably makes your rifle safer, before mine used to knock the projectile out spilling powder everywhere. This could even help accuracy, the lug won't be screwing up the tips of your bullets. As for anyone concerned about whether or not the bolt is still strong enough, I guarantee you mine is just fine, I've loaded and shot some VERY hot loads, a few maybe too hot. My bolt is still here. I've ran a whole crate ( 880) of mil surplus, about 100 or so PPU, and maybe 200 hand loads thru it since I fixed it.
Your modification seems very mild, and looks to resolve the issue.. I'm still wanting to chase down the issue with the mag, so I'm going to work that for the week or so.

The projectile does contact the bolt each time. It has to sit high to get into the chamber. Same is true with the factory mags.. They just sit a little different that lets them move out of the way.

I have a couple ideas on why they made this change to the bolt.. I think it could actually be a good thing if it stays around.
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Old 01-02-2017, 01:37 PM   #864
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Your modification seems very mild, and looks to resolve the issue.. I'm still wanting to chase down the issue with the mag, so I'm going to work that for the week or so.

The projectile does contact the bolt each time. It has to sit high to get into the chamber. Same is true with the factory mags.. They just sit a little different that lets them move out of the way.

I have a couple ideas on why they made this change to the bolt.. I think it could actually be a good thing if it stays around.
Your right, Ive been comparing your magazine to molots and sgm's. They do all make contact with that lug, just in different ways. Using your awesome mag the bullet sits just a hair higher and a hair farther forward, this is on the last round, but your spring tension seems to be about the same. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to get it to where the molot is. Now sgm's mags make that bullet sit way higher, and I know from experience that it also lets the bullet slide even farther forward. I never really used the molot mags much, but I'm beginning to wonder if people with the dish cut haven't been having the same issue with them. I'm sure it would at least be chewing up the projectile. I don't have an unmodified bolt to try it out. You said you have some ideas as to why molot would stop doing the chamfer cut, I'm interested to know, I sure can't figure it out. In fact all I see out of it is issues and potential for issues. Seems like a bad thing if whenever a bullet doesn't sit exactly right, your action jams or your projectile gets ripped off. I really hope this issue doesn't effect the plans for the 15's. Like many others I've been patiently waiting for a very long time to get my capacity above 10, I'm sure your more distressed over this than I am. Whenever you get one of the dish cut bolts in your hand, look him square in the eye and calmly but firmly ask WHY.
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Old 01-02-2017, 02:00 PM   #865
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Your right, Ive been comparing your magazine to molots and sgm's. They do all make contact with that lug, just in different ways. Using your awesome mag the bullet sits just a hair higher and a hair farther forward, this is on the last round, but your spring tension seems to be about the same. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to get it to where the molot is. Now sgm's mags make that bullet sit way higher, and I know from experience that it also lets the bullet slide even farther forward. I never really used the molot mags much, but I'm beginning to wonder if people with the dish cut haven't been having the same issue with them. I'm sure it would at least be chewing up the projectile. I don't have an unmodified bolt to try it out. You said you have some ideas as to why molot would stop doing the chamfer cut, I'm interested to know, I sure can't figure it out. In fact all I see out of it is issues and potential for issues. Seems like a bad thing if whenever a bullet doesn't sit exactly right, your action jams or your projectile gets ripped off. I really hope this issue doesn't effect the plans for the 15's. Like many others I've been patiently waiting for a very long time to get my capacity above 10, I'm sure your more distressed over this than I am. Whenever you get one of the dish cut bolts in your hand, look him square in the eye and calmly but firmly ask WHY.
I have 19 of the Molot OEM five-round magazines, and not a single one of them has ever malfunctioned, or caused a malfunction. The ONLY problem I have with the Molot magazines is the capacity (or lack there-of).
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:17 PM   #866
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I have 19 of the Molot OEM five-round magazines, and not a single one of them has ever malfunctioned, or caused a malfunction. The ONLY problem I have with the Molot magazines is the capacity (or lack there-of).
19 ! Damn. Yeah they hold them in there just right. Even using my modified bolt I can feel a bit of resistance right where I begin to pull the charging handle and the turning of the bolt pushes the bullet down. There's almost nothing to notice with the molot mags, some with the csspecs and a lot with the sgm. Seems a little difference does a lot in this case. Have you tried a lot of different ammo, maybe some brass cased or different shaped projectiles. I remember the soft point and round nose were the worst. The soft lead on the tip would just get dug into and hold the lug. I'm not sure if I ran anything like that using the molot mag, but I can run it all now fine using any magazine.
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:49 PM   #867
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19 ! Damn. Yeah they hold them in there just right. Even using my modified bolt I can feel a bit of resistance right where I begin to pull the charging handle and the turning of the bolt pushes the bullet down. There's almost nothing to notice with the molot mags, some with the csspecs and a lot with the sgm. Seems a little difference does a lot in this case. Have you tried a lot of different ammo, maybe some brass cased or different shaped projectiles. I remember the soft point and round nose were the worst. The soft lead on the tip would just get dug into and hold the lug. I'm not sure if I ran anything like that using the molot mag, but I can run it all now fine using any magazine.
Yeah, 19. I make-up for the lack of capacity with more magazines (I found that three magazines per pocket are a perfect fit in my old WWII era BAR magazine belt). Plus, if you don't have a working magazine for a rifle, then it's just a club.

I have tried PPU brass-cased ammunition in my Vepr. It cycled and shot just fine, but the brass would get mangled beyond re-use on ejection. The mouths of the cases would get smashed nearly shut, rendering them un-reloadable. I've shot every kind of steel-cased ammo I can find through the Vepr without malfunction. It tends to prefer "heavy ball" for accuracy.

Regarding round-nose and soft-tip; I believe it has something to do with the Vepr loading to the center of the chamber, instead of the lower quadrant (hence the lack of feed ramps, at least on the 54R models). This means that the round must ride a little higher in the magazine, and probably contributes to the excessive contact while the bolt is making it's rearward stroke.
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Old 01-02-2017, 04:16 PM   #868
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Yeah, I'm sure that's why the bullets are so high and make that contact. Hey, I'm not trying to knock the vepr, no no no. I love this rifle. If my house was on fire, I would run back in, braving the flames and falling ceiling to save it. The contact is a must, I'm wondering about that hard edge during the twist of the bolt right before it starts moving backward. Do you think that if you were shooting soft tip or round nose out of a molot mag that the bullet would make it around that hard edge during the bolt turn, without catching or mangling the projectile ?
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Old 01-02-2017, 04:28 PM   #869
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I believe they changed it mid 2014.
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Old 01-02-2017, 04:53 PM   #870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiahwillis View Post
Yeah, I'm sure that's why the bullets are so high and make that contact. Hey, I'm not trying to knock the vepr, no no no. I love this rifle. If my house was on fire, I would run back in, braving the flames and falling ceiling to save it. The contact is a must, I'm wondering about that hard edge during the twist of the bolt right before it starts moving backward. Do you think that if you were shooting soft tip or round nose out of a molot mag that the bullet would make it around that hard edge during the bolt turn, without catching or mangling the projectile ?
Yes. My Molot magazines (all 19 of them) have cycled soft-points without problems, and I have the non-chamfered bolt.

I believe the issue has something to do with Molot building the 54R Vepr to be able to run on ANY commercial ammunition. It is my understanding that the PSL (an obvious foundation for the Vepr) has a drawback of only being able to run on "light ball" (150 grain or less) ammunition without beating itself into a pile of parts with a relative quickness. In order to make the rifle palatable to the consumer market, the Vepr needed to be able to digest ammunition with all of the bullet weights available commercially. To make this happen, they had to strengthen the front trunion, which meant going to a single-stack magazine. Which brings us to the magazine issues we have today.

I might be completely off-base with this line of reasoning, but it makes some sense to me.
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Old 01-02-2017, 05:44 PM   #871
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Well then, that means that a magazine has to hold the bullets in there just so. The slightest variation ( While using a non modified dish cut ) is going to cause these issues. This is bad news for anyone wanting higher capacity mags who isn't willing to file that edge off their lug or doesn't have the chamfer cut. I don't know, csspecs might not have that much trouble doing this, but sgm failed miserably. In their mags the bullets sit way different. Seems so counterproductive for molot to have done away with the chamfer cut lug.
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Old 01-02-2017, 05:50 PM   #872
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Well the way i test all my guns and mags is i load them up and pull trigger as fast i can, bump fire sometimes too. I didnt test Csspecs yet but i couldnt get SGM mags to feed properly on bump fire, they did wirk on slow rate of fire. Molot mags did work good on bump fire
My Vepr is 2014 model with Molot filed lug
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:02 PM   #873
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why couldn't they just use both? i mean looking at the bolt lug the sides around the dish seems so aggressive to me. seems like it would've been the smart move on their part to smooth those out if not for clearance just as a added measure encase the bolt does make contact when its moving.

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Old 01-02-2017, 08:59 PM   #874
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I'd like to hear from a Molot representative on this. There must be a reason as to why they changed the contour on that bolt lug sometime around 2014. Maybe the reasons were significant, or maybe it was something as innocuous as saving some money by eliminating a machining step in order to make a price point.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:20 PM   #875
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I'd like to hear from a Molot representative on this. There must be a reason as to why they changed the contour on that bolt lug sometime around 2014. Maybe the reasons were significant, or maybe it was something as innocuous as saving some money by eliminating a machining step in order to make a price point.
seems like the dish cut would be a more cost intensive option over just grinding down the side a little.
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