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Old 05-19-2018, 06:04 PM   #1
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Default MAGLATCH CA Legal Option For Vepr 12

MagLatch has released their new Vepr 12 -CA Legal Gas Plug option that can convert the Russian semi auto mag fed shotgun into a manually operated firearm making it legal for shipment to CA. This is a great option to be able to get these great sporting shotguns into CA.

MagLatch




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Old 05-19-2018, 06:25 PM   #2
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That’s so sad that California has worse gun laws than many European countries now.
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Old 05-20-2018, 02:49 AM   #3
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This is cool.

So does this negate the requirement to put a grip fin on it as well? Or does that’s still apply?

Also, why not just take the gas puc out completely?

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Old 05-20-2018, 09:19 AM   #4
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Quote:
So does this negate the requirement to put a grip fin on it as well? Or does that’s still apply?
It does not need the fin wrap but the client needs to verify all of this with their transfer dealer before placing the order .
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:30 PM   #5
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Personally (while I am not a fan of detachable-mag fed shotguns) I would prefer the grip wrap over the puc if I was going to get one. Despite ruining the ergonomics of the weapon the wrap at least allows for it to function as designed.

And is just as easily removed once the laws allow.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:39 PM   #6
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The first thing you owe yourself, so you can enjoy your guns is to stay out of jail.

I looked at your ad which talks about this being CA Legal, and below that line, your disclaimer about how this isn't CADOJ approved.

Also watched the video/demonstration of the Maglatch where the prospective buyer is urged/cautioned to talk to their FFL before going this route.

Some of the featureless stuff for AK's and AR's is being sold w/the same/similar suggestion that it conforms to the law, but w/a disclaimer that it hasn't been CADOJ approved.

My .02 cents is don't just talk to your FFL, but contact the CADOJ and get an approval in writing if you're going in another direction besides reg. your gun as an AW. Times running out but you still got 40 days to do it.

They'll tell you yes, it's ok, or no, we're going to consider what you want to do as illegal, or if you do it, we're not going to prosecute.



They're going to make these decisions whether you ask them or not.



My advice is to get this or whatever you want to do approved in writing from the CADOJ so you can stay out of trouble, because you're not going to the range anytime soon locked up on a felony because what somebody else thought was CA Legal was not the CADOJ interpretation which is the only thing that counts.

It's a beautiful Sunday here, so if you disagree fine, but don't bother me with the name calling, disrespect, and questioning somebodies manhood that's going on in the forums back in CA, because I'm with the gun owners, NOT the CADOJ.

Be careful folks, so you can stay free.



BTW: I absolutely HATED registering my guns, thought a LONG time about going the other route, but I made my choice hoping at some point in the future, that all this will be reversed.

Last edited by AllTen; 05-20-2018 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTen View Post
The first thing you owe yourself, so you can enjoy your guns is to stay out of jail.

I looked at your ad which talks about this being CA Legal, and below that line, your disclaimer about how this isn't CADOJ approved.

Also watched the video/demonstration of the Maglatch where the prospective buyer is urged/cautioned to talk to their FFL before going this route.

Some of the featureless stuff for AK's and AR's is being sold w/the same/similar suggestion that it conforms to the law, but w/a disclaimer that it hasn't been CADOJ approved.

My .02 cents is don't just talk to your FFL, but contact the CADOJ and get an approval in writing if you're going in another direction besides reg. your gun as an AW. Times running out but you still got 40 days to do it.

They'll tell you yes, it's ok, or no, we're going to consider what you want to do as illegal, or if you do it, we're not going to prosecute.



They're going to make these decisions whether you ask them or not.



My advice is to get this or whatever you want to do approved in writing from the CADOJ so you can stay out of trouble, because you're not going to the range anytime soon locked up on a felony because what somebody else thought was CA Legal was not the CADOJ interpretation which is the only thing that counts.

It's a beautiful Sunday here, so if you disagree fine, but don't bother me with the name calling, disrespect, and questioning somebodies manhood that's going on in the forums back in CA, because I'm with the gun owners, NOT the CADOJ.

Be careful folks, so you can stay free.



BTW: I absolutely HATED registering my guns, thought a LONG time about going the other route, but I made my choice hoping at some point in the future, that all this will be reversed.
CADOJ will never go on the record with an approval.

Just look at the "bullet button", CADOJ NEVER publicly stated that such was legal despite decades of use. Major weapons manufacturers couldn't get an answer and simply followed the crowd after many years of aftermarket use by owners of rifles that resulted in no arrests.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:35 PM   #8
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I'm not talking about manufacturers, I'm talking about an individual whose unsure about all this, contacting the CADOJ for a response about a particular option.

You say they'll never respond w/an approval, that's your honest opinion and I respect that, but I would still ask anyway.

If what you say is true, that regardless of whether anybody asks or not, the CADOJ is not going to give an approval in writing........................................... .......

....................................... then how can anybody come up with a device, and turn around an suggest to anybody that it's CA. Legal?



This whole discussion w/you is why I didn't go the featureless route. I was sorely tempted, but couldn't get a straight answer from anybody.

So for me, suggesting that something is "CA legal", along w/a disclaimer that it's not CADOJ approved is not good enough. If it's actually CA legal................. why the disclaimer?

What does that actually mean, we're selling you this, and according to the way we see the law, it's legal, but BTW the folks who'll decide if they're going to prosecute you for doing this, have not approved it.


For me that's not going to work.



I may be wrong, you may be right, but for me, I won't take that risk. I'd still advise asking, if you plan to go this route or featureless, which at least suggests that if you in fact do take this risk, that you're attempting to find out in following the law.

Again, I don't like this whole deal, but even according to you, doing it the other way CADOJ won't approve in writing.



I did it this way because I do have a paper approving my possessing these guns in CA., and if somebody breaks into my house, and I ending using one of my Vepr 12's to defend my self, I'm still legal.


Is this whole affair ridiculous.............and needless....................yes it is...............I've had close to 25-30 background checks. I'm a few months from 70. I've never reached for my guns in anger, and never
will, The idea that I have to register a gun twice isn't the answer to anything. My safety and the safety of others comes from me being the person I am, not from my guns.

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Old 05-20-2018, 09:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTen View Post
I'm not talking about manufacturers, I'm talking about an individual whose unsure about all this, contacting the CADOJ for a response about a particular option.

You say they'll never respond w/an approval, that's your honest opinion and I respect that, but I would still ask anyway.

If what you say is true, that regardless of whether anybody asks or not, the CADOJ is not going to give an approval in writing........................................... .......

....................................... then how can anybody come up with a device, and turn around an suggest to anybody that it's CA. Legal?



This whole discussion w/you is why I didn't go the featureless route. I was sorely tempted, but couldn't get a straight answer from anybody.

So for me, suggesting that something is "CA legal", along w/a disclaimer that it's not CADOJ approved is not good enough. If it's actually CA legal................. why the disclaimer?

What does that actually mean, we're selling you this, and according to the way we see the law, it's legal, but BTW the folks who'll decide if they're going to prosecute you for doing this, have not approved it.


For me that's not going to work.



I may be wrong, you may be right, but for me, I won't take that risk. I'd still advise asking, if you plan to go this route or featureless, which at least suggests that if you in fact do take this risk, that you're attempting to find out in following the law.

Again, I don't like this whole deal, but even according to you, doing it the other way CADOJ won't approve in writing.



I did it this way because I do have a paper approving my possessing these guns in CA., and if somebody breaks into my house, and I ending using one of my Vepr 12's to defend my self, I'm still legal.


Is this whole affair ridiculous.............and needless....................yes it is...............I've had close to 25-30 background checks. I'm a few months from 70. I've never reached for my guns in anger, and never
will, The idea that I have to register a gun twice isn't the answer to anything. My safety and the safety of others comes from me being the person I am, not from my guns.
Obviously your rifles had bullet buttons as the only legal non-BB rifles were registered already during the first AWB back in 1992.

So you already ran this play this with them, as like I said there was never anything from the DOJ that said they were legal. Did you perhaps think that since the stores were selling them there must be something in writing about it?

It is not a case of right or wrong...it is a FACT that CADOJ never ruled on the legality of the bullet button. Head over to CalGuns and ask their lawyer who litigates current cases for the CalGuns Foundation what DOJ ever stated about the BB.

As to registering them twice, that is incorrect as the 4473 you filled out at time of purchase did NOT register the weapon. This was where many ill informed gun owners helped almost pass previous legislation in CA that called for registration of all rifles...because they "thought" their weapons were already registered (4473) and it was only the bad guys weapons the Law was calling for registration on.

Even CADOJ approval isn't going to be a safe thing as back in the day they first approved and then disapproved the sale of a certain style of SKS here in CA. Where people who bought them legally(?) had them confiscated without reimbursement for their loss.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:56 PM   #10
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"Obviously your rifles had bullet buttons as the only legal non-BB rifles were registered already during the first AWB back in 1992.

So you already ran this play this with them, as like I said there was never anything from the DOJ that said they were legal. Did you perhaps think that since the stores were selling them there must be something in writing about it?"................................





No............................................Inco rrect............................................. ....................

I don't have any rifles, only shotguns..............................and I bought my 2 Vepr 12's in 2016, and they came w/the BB.

I wasn't/haven't taken issue w/you over the BB, so you're mixing up issues.........

Whatever you were talking about, my issue was w/the Maglatch, and the featureless devices, and the suggestion that they're CA legal, along w/the disclaimer that they not CADOJ approved and my suggestion that anyone going this route contact the CADOJ and ask for a written approval of what they are considering doing.

It doesn't do any good for somebody to take a risk w/the Maglatch and/or the featureless devices, when you could've asked, gotten the legality of these straight from the "horses mouth".

It certainly doesn't do any good to NOT ask the CADOJ for written approval, and assume that because somebody else says something is legal, that you go ahead and do this anyway, and then at later date, CADOJ decides/considers you to be in possession of an illegal gun. If that does happen to you, they wont care what anybody else told you.


The CADOJ may not respond to you in writing, but you ask first...............have you asked the CADOJ anything, personally, where they didn't respond/or refused a response? I've talked to them on the phone TWICE.

As to being incorrect about registering my Vepr's 12, I got the same paperwork for them that I got when I purchased my other firearms, so you're making a distinction w/o a difference, and regardless of that particular point, doesn't change my suggestion to use caution......................and to ask the CADOJ if you've got a question, or call them on the phone, that is to do everything you possibly can to avoid needless heartache, and stay out of jail.

I worked in a jail, so I'll guarantee you one thing. Life isn't fair and neither is the law, and I had a few folks locked up where I read their files and didn't think they should've been locked up (that's saying something for me, because most folks locked up deserved to be locked up).

They were in the wrong place at the wrong time, or had the wrong lawyer or gotten prosecuted over something not anywhere near as serious as what we're talking about now.

You got your opinion and I've got mine, and rightly or wrongly, and whether I'm ill informed or not, I've said all I have to say about this, and nothing else on my end needs to be said.

Have a good evening.

Last edited by AllTen; 05-20-2018 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:23 AM   #11
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Whether you want to listen or not, I am clearing up the erroneous info you are posting.

Rifle or shotgun it matters not, the point is they came with a BB. A BB that comes with the same disclaimer of "being CA compliant" as the CADOJ has NEVER approved them as being CA legal. So you have had them for years and never called DOJ to ask if it was legal because you just assumed it was because you bought them that way.


As to calling to ask CADOJ about something, just as with the IRS, anything the person on the phone tells you is NOT legally binding and won't protect you in a legal action. If it isn't in writing then it is worthless. And like I pointed out even being in writing didn't stop them from reversing themselves on the SKS decision at a later date.

It has also been proven that CADOJ has LIED to people on the phone as to the things being illegal that were actually legal.

You spoke of registering your weapons twice, which is incorrect. The DROS did NOT actually register it (though I'm sure that DOJ doesn't destroy the record of the DROS like they are supposed to either). The Assault Weapons Registration form you just sent into DOJ is what actually registered the weapon to you in an easily searched legal database.


Anyone wanting the true scoop on CA gun laws needs to head over to CalGuns. Where like I said the actual lawyer involved in legal action for the Foundation (to include SCOTUS cases) can be talked to on the Forum. How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me

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Old 05-22-2018, 07:48 PM   #12
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I really wanted to dis-engage from this, but I'm not going to back away from sticking up for myself because there's nothing erroneous about what I said.

So if I need to jump back in to do that, then jump back in I will.



There's nothing erroneous in this discussion except your wrong assumptions, and willingness to misrepresent what somebody who disagrees w/you said.

First off, you make an absolutely wild and baseless assumption, and state that assumption as fact, that I have rifles w/bullet buttons, and that I did something w/them in 1992. You were 100% wrong..........................

When you make this kind of mistake, when you're this much off target, you admit it, but you don't, and then say it doesn't matter. It does matter.




The "Straw Man argument": Here's a commonly accepted definition of a straw man argument:


A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument. Intentional strawmanning is usually done with a certain goal in mind, including:



1. Avoiding real debate against an opponent's real argument, because the misrepresenter risks losing in fair debate



2. Making the opponent's position appear ridiculous as a way of poisoning the well Unintentional misrepresentations are also possible, but in this case, the misrepresenter would only be guilty of simple ignorance. While their argument would still be fallacious, they can be at least excused of malice




In my discussion with you, there's



Straw man 1: You suggest I don't know the difference between the Dros paperwork and gun registration.

I never said anything about a Dros being the same as registering a gun; you interjected that as my suggesting/saying that.



Straw man 2: I never suggested you call up CADOJ and get approval for doing anything verbally, I said I've talked to them TWICE and I have. Neither time was to get an approval over the phone, and I never suggested that, you did.



You engaged in A "Straw Man" argument and "putting words in my mouth" by saying this..............................

"As to calling to ask CADOJ about something, just as with the IRS, anything the person on the phone tells you is NOT legally binding and won't protect you in a legal action. If it isn't in writing then it is worthless. And like I pointed out even being in writing didn't stop them from reversing themselves on the SKS decision at a later date........................................"





I called them once to clarify an issue w/one of my guns (not the Veprs), which ended w/my asking them for a document reflecting what they told me over the phone, and they obliged and sent me the document which is in my safe.

The second call to the CADOJ was regarding my going through the process to register my Vepr 12's as AW, and their rep was unable to help on that particular issue, but I was able to complete the registration anyway.




If they don't respond to you in writing/by email on an issue regarding whether something is "CA legal"/something you're considering doing, you call them up and ask. They'll check and then tell you yes or no, or they'll tell you they'll research it, and to call them back.


If they tell you they're not going to approve what you want, then it's up to you whether or not you do it anyway despite the non-approval.

If they tell you they have no problem approving what you want, then you ask them to send a document that says that in writing.

I mentioned several times getting written approval for whatever you want to do when dealing w/the CADOJ, over the course of this discussion, and I've never suggested that anyone should do otherwise.




Not only did you throw "straw men" at me, but you avoid the main issue of our discussion about whether or not a particular device is CA legal, as it relates to CADOJ approval.




Because the logic behind developing a device like the Maglatch/the featureless devices "makes sense" as a "workaround" of the new AW laws, doesn't mean the CADOJ is going to accept that reasoning.

There's no getting around it..................If it isn't CADOJ approved. It ISN'T CA legal.




I'll say it again a 2nd time so it can sink in for you.



Not CADOJ approved, NOT CA legal.





I harped on this point because I'd hate to see someone come along, who sees the text "CA Legal" behind a device and they think that the legality of the device is without question, when actually it is, which might result in their having problems later along the line.




It is incumbent on everybody involved in these discussions not to play around w/people's lives, because missteps involving all of this could cause serious repercussions.



I asked you about your direct dealings w/the CADOJ to find out if what you're saying is from your personal/direct knowledge of the CADOJ, and you avoid answering that question.




The question again, is have you dealt w/the CADOJ directly, or are you passing along what you've read.


That refers particularly to when you say something like this............... "It has also been proven that CADOJ has LIED to people on the phone as to the things being illegal that were actually legal.".............................


If you know this statement to be true from your direct involvement, then give the folks here the specifics so they can arm themselves w/the tools they need to deal w/the CADOJ.


Specifics like how was it proved, how did they lie, and to who, and about what..............


Did the CADOJ lie to you over the phone, or to somebody else, and you're getting this info about an incident secondhand.


You want to clear up erroneous info, and blanket generalizations w/o specifics, then which is it?



If your suggestion/statement is true, that the CADOJ will straight out lie to you about the illegality of these devices, then you can draw the inference that it would be truly CRAZY to risk using one of these devices and expect that the CADOJ is going to treat you fairly if some kind of problem arises from what you did.


There's no getting around that either................and it comes from a premise that came directly out of your mouth.





If you haven't dealt directly with the CADOJ, I can still say that I have, and that means something when you and I talk about the CADOJ.



I chronicled my dealings w/the CADOJ in registering my 2 Vepr 12's in my "Lightning in Both Hands" thread to give folks specifics as to what I went through. That was weeks ago.


I also steered folks to a link to CALGUNS in that same thread, way before you mentioned CAL GUNS in this thread, and I used their tutorial to register my Veprs, which has used the input of lawyers in compiling it.

All of that is here.................


http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328243



Now having said that, and in terms of taking the risk of using workarounds to the AW laws like the Maglatch/featureless devices, and you've haven't gotten approval from CADOJ, my .02 is don't depend exclusively on lawyers/legal advice given over the internet (whether they've argued before the Supreme Court or not).


If I were taking such a risk w/o CADOJ approval instead of registering the guns as AW, I would consult my personal lawyer who is an advocate for me and not a group that's trying to make a point (and I say this despite the fact that I think they're absolutely right) and have him go over all of this and then give you his personal assessment of your risk taking/doing it the way you want to do it.


This is the EXACT same advice quite a few folks are suggesting on CAL GUNS, and it makes sense.


Talk to your lawyer, he doesn't want to see you get locked up, because if you do, he stops getting paid.


Hopefully your personal lawyer also cares about you, and will advise you so you can avoid a costly fight in court and/or jail.



If you want to disagree w/what I said fine, but do it w/o the sideshow of misrepresenting what I say, and avoiding the main issues which is what the folks trying to figure this out need to hear.



BTW: Re the issue of the Bullet Button......................The way things turned out for the BB doesn't mean that you can assume/predict/guarantee that things will turn out the same way for a totally different device, should you decide to slap that device on your gun as a workaround to the AW laws....................................You can't extrapolate the circumstances to the same end result from the Bullet Button to a totally different device.

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