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Old 03-06-2018, 08:13 PM   #1
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Default What constitutes “modifying” an arm brace?

Let me start off my saying I have no intentions to circumvent the NFA and never have. I do not intend to redesign an arm brace to be considered a shoulder stock. My rifles and intended to be rifles, my SBRs are intended to be SBRs and my pistols are intended to remain pistols. So that being said, certain arm braces are unstable and slide all over place when the pistol is leaned against a wall/rack/bench/etc. I have had them fall over on many occasions which could be considered unsafe at certain ranges. Do you guys think that putting some friction tape on the brace to prevent the sliding would be considered modifying it to become a stock? Would it make a difference if I added grip tape to all of the surfaces that would aid in the brace being used as designed and with no other changes? This question may not have an answer at this time but i’m Interested to hear what you guys think.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:32 PM   #2
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I don't see how the BATF could consider applying grip tape as a modification.
That said the the SB47s are FUGLY!, the Galils slightly less so and I still haven't seen anybody undo the velcro...
Get a KAK Shockwave and you won't have the stock roll when pistol is leaned.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:32 PM   #3
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if its not exactly the way it was brand new out of the box, its modified
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:46 PM   #4
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if its not exactly the way it was brand new out of the box, its modified
Thats the way I read the letter. You take the velcro off, modified. etc.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:59 PM   #5
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Ain't disagreeing: you take velcro OFF or DIY add wrist length adjustment and you're modifying. Shockwave Blade comes sanctioned with tube adjustment and doesn't need any other skateboard tape adder.
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:25 AM   #6
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Thats the way I read the letter. You take the velcro off, modified. etc.
yea my dad took the velcro straps off his SB47 and drilled through the rubber on the back to install a QD mount with a threaded backing plate in the inside of the rubber........I promply advised him thats a no go in the terms of the law........highly doubt he would ever be in a situation where anyone would pay attention or give a fuck, but still.
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:16 AM   #7
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Good info, wasn’t sure if modifying in any way was the same as modifying to make a stock. I guess it doesn’t matter.
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:40 PM   #8
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I put one layer of electrical tape sticky side down the tube of my sob47 and now its tight as a drum

I'm not qualified to give you legal advise but I'm not worried about it at least
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:54 AM   #9
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This is a little off topic, but I learned recently from an attorney that shouldering a brace can still convert a pistol to an SBR.

If your using the brace as its supposedly made to be used, and once in a while you unintentionally shoulder the brace, you are OK. If you shoulder the brace intentionally on every shot you take, or most of the shots you take, you are NOT OK. The brace becomes a buttstock which makes the pistol become an SBR.

So for example, you are at the gun range with your braced pistol and there is an ATF agent there watching you shoot. You take 20 shots. If on 3 of the shots the brace was unintentionally shouldered, you are OK. If on all 20 shots, the brace was intentionally shouldered, you are NOT OK.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:07 AM   #10
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This is a little off topic, but I learned recently from an attorney that shouldering a brace can still convert a pistol to an SBR.

If your using the brace as its supposedly made to be used, and once in a while you unintentionally shoulder the brace, you are OK. If you shoulder the brace intentionally on every shot you take, or most of the shots you take, you are NOT OK. The brace becomes a buttstock which makes the pistol become an SBR.

So for example, you are at the gun range with your braced pistol and there is an ATF agent there watching you shoot. You take 20 shots. If on 3 of the shots the brace was unintentionally shouldered, you are OK. If on all 20 shots, the brace was intentionally shouldered, you are NOT OK.
Yeah, that's written in the U.S. Code.

I keep telling folks this, but nobody believes me - even though it's there in black & white for anyone to read for themselves.


Ignorance is bliss, I guess ( at least until the bracelets get clapped on )
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:39 AM   #11
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Modifying is modifying....

It's a silly rule, but, so is the nfa garbage.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:58 AM   #12
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So for example, you are at the gun range with your braced pistol and there is an ATF agent there watching you shoot. You take 20 shots. If on 3 of the shots the brace was unintentionally shouldered, you are OK. If on all 20 shots, the brace was intentionally shouldered, you are NOT OK.
that's why you should not shoot with ATF agents or cameras around. Try it.

For fucks sake people, let me start a thread if ATF recommends wiping your ass with left or right hand, may be they can search and find some laws to that extent, I don't know.
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Old 04-06-2018, 04:59 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tbryanh View Post
This is a little off topic, but I learned recently from an attorney that shouldering a brace can still convert a pistol to an SBR.

If your using the brace as its supposedly made to be used, and once in a while you unintentionally shoulder the brace, you are OK. If you shoulder the brace intentionally on every shot you take, or most of the shots you take, you are NOT OK. The brace becomes a buttstock which makes the pistol become an SBR.

So for example, you are at the gun range with your braced pistol and there is an ATF agent there watching you shoot. You take 20 shots. If on 3 of the shots the brace was unintentionally shouldered, you are OK. If on all 20 shots, the brace was intentionally shouldered, you are NOT OK.
Jesus -What a pile of BS...
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:09 PM   #14
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Jesus -What a pile of BS...
Yes, and it's such a smelly pile, they actually put it in the letter of the law.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbryanh View Post
This is a little off topic, but I learned recently from an attorney that shouldering a brace can still convert a pistol to an SBR.

If your using the brace as its supposedly made to be used, and once in a while you unintentionally shoulder the brace, you are OK. If you shoulder the brace intentionally on every shot you take, or most of the shots you take, you are NOT OK. The brace becomes a buttstock which makes the pistol become an SBR.

So for example, you are at the gun range with your braced pistol and there is an ATF agent there watching you shoot. You take 20 shots. If on 3 of the shots the brace was unintentionally shouldered, you are OK. If on all 20 shots, the brace was intentionally shouldered, you are NOT OK.
Of course, you also have people building firearms with braces, anddoing the same thing. Which would in fact constitute a “design or redesign, made or remade” situation.

I chose to buy my braced mp5, with brace installed. Someone I know, bought his sans brace, then bought and added the brace later on. Who in this case made or remade anything? I opened the case, filled mags and shot away.

The real question is, if you are shooting a braced firearm and the brace doesn’t touch your deltoids, but is firmly planted in your pectoral muscle, is it considered shouldered?
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Old 05-08-2018, 02:45 PM   #16
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Yeah, that's written in the U.S. Code.

I keep telling folks this, but nobody believes me - even though it's there in black & white for anyone to read for themselves.


Ignorance is bliss, I guess ( at least until the bracelets get clapped on )
Do you have a link anywhere? Iirc the atf statement said you can shoulder it
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Old 05-08-2018, 03:08 PM   #17
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Do you have a link anywhere? Iirc the atf statement said you can shoulder it
The ATF says lots of things they have no business saying.

The batboys can't change the law of the land.

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions


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Old 05-08-2018, 03:09 PM   #18
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Do you have a link anywhere? Iirc the atf statement said you can shoulder it
https://forum.texaslawshield.com/ind...3mq615#msg5758

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“Incidental” firing from the shoulder does not turn a pistol with one of these braces into an SBR, but regular firing from the shoulder . . . would turn this gun into an SBR.

Last edited by tbryanh; 05-08-2018 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 05-08-2018, 03:25 PM   #19
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Unfortunately, many gun writers have written articles indicating pistol braces can be shouldered without any consequences. They come across as experts, but they are uninformed.
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Old 05-09-2018, 06:33 PM   #20
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I did a little research, and I want to share some of my observations. Note that I am not an attorney, and I am not giving legal advice.

SB-Tactical, a manufactuer of pistol braces, had their attorneys, Mark Barnes & Associates, argue to the ATF that a pistol brace remains a pistol brace regardless of how it is used. To support the argument, they used the act of hammering nails into wood with a screwdriver. They claimed that a screwdriver does not become a hammer just because it is used as a hammer and that, like a screwdriver, a stablizing brace does not become a buttstock just because it is used as a buttstock.

In their response to SB-Tactical's attorneys, the ATF rejected the argument, and in the process, they clarified a misconception about the law. They explained that incidental or sporadic shouldering of a braced pistol does not necessarily convert the pistol into an SBR as some people may have believed. SB-Tactical and other gun writers hyped the clarification as being a reversal of the ATF's decision on the use of braces as buttstocks.

In their January 2015 open letter, the ATF states that the "pistol stabilizing brace was neither 'designed' nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a 'redesign' of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked. Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA." The ATF's response to SB-Tactical's attorneys does not change this law.

As a side note, the January 2015 open letter also indicates that the stabalizing brace is approved for one-handed firing of a pistol. Using two hands to fire a braced pistol is a misuse of the brace and probably also helps to indicate the brace is actually a buttstock.


SOURCES
January 2015 OPEN LETTER ON THE REDESIGN OF “STABILIZING BRACES” https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

SB Tactical™ Announces Reversal of ATF Open Letter on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces® https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-conte...Position-1.pdf

PRESS RELEASE: SB Tactical™ Announces Reversal of ATF Open Letter on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces® https://www.sb-tactical.com/blog/sb-...lizing-braces/

Breaking News: ATF Reverses Its Stance On Shouldering Stabilizing Braces http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...lizing-braces/

SB Tactical Announces Reversal of ATF Open Letter on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces http://www.gunsandtech.com/news/tyan...lizing-braces/

ATF Reverses Position on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces http://gunsinthenews.com/atf-reverse...lizing-braces/

Last edited by tbryanh; 05-09-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:48 PM   #21
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I guess a whooooole lot of people belong in prison then to include leo’s and other federal agents as well! Haha. I’m glad no ones going along with that bullshit. They’ve gone back and forth so many times nobody gives a shit anymore and I’d really hope the ATF had better things to do. Using a spoon as a fork doesn’t make it a fork. Wish GOA or someone would actually sue the government over the NFA as a clear violated of the 2nd amendment.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:53 AM   #22
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The law will probably be enforced when someone uses a braced pistol either in self defense or while committing a crime. If witnesses say the brace was shouldered, then charges for an illegal SBR will probably be brought.
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Old 05-27-2018, 05:02 AM   #23
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As far as I know, LEOs and Feds have access to NFA items, so probably there is no problem with them shouldering braced pistols while on duty.
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Old 05-27-2018, 05:23 AM   #24
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Unfortunately, many gun writers have written articles indicating pistol braces can be shouldered without any consequences. They come across as experts, but they are uninformed.
Experts are like assholes everybody has one...
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by tbryanh View Post
I did a little research, and I want to share some of my observations. Note that I am not an attorney, and I am not giving legal advice.

SB-Tactical, a manufactuer of pistol braces, had their attorneys, Mark Barnes & Associates, argue to the ATF that a pistol brace remains a pistol brace regardless of how it is used. To support the argument, they used the act of hammering nails into wood with a screwdriver. They claimed that a screwdriver does not become a hammer just because it is used as a hammer and that, like a screwdriver, a stablizing brace does not become a buttstock just because it is used as a buttstock.

In their response to SB-Tactical's attorneys, the ATF rejected the argument, and in the process, they clarified a misconception about the law. They explained that incidental or sporadic shouldering of a braced pistol does not necessarily convert the pistol into an SBR as some people may have believed. SB-Tactical and other gun writers hyped the clarification as being a reversal of the ATF's decision on the use of braces as buttstocks.

In their January 2015 open letter, the ATF states that the "pistol stabilizing brace was neither 'designed' nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a 'redesign' of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked. Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA." The ATF's response to SB-Tactical's attorneys does not change this law.

As a side note, the January 2015 open letter also indicates that the stabalizing brace is approved for one-handed firing of a pistol. Using two hands to fire a braced pistol is a misuse of the brace and probably also helps to indicate the brace is actually a buttstock.


SOURCES
January 2015 OPEN LETTER ON THE REDESIGN OF “STABILIZING BRACES” https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

SB Tactical™ Announces Reversal of ATF Open Letter on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces® https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-conte...Position-1.pdf

PRESS RELEASE: SB Tactical™ Announces Reversal of ATF Open Letter on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces® https://www.sb-tactical.com/blog/sb-...lizing-braces/

Breaking News: ATF Reverses Its Stance On Shouldering Stabilizing Braces http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...lizing-braces/

SB Tactical Announces Reversal of ATF Open Letter on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces http://www.gunsandtech.com/news/tyan...lizing-braces/

ATF Reverses Position on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces http://gunsinthenews.com/atf-reverse...lizing-braces/
Shoulder a brace “on accident,” you’re likely okay, make youtube videos saying it’s an NFA work around and burying it in your shoulder “like a boss” well, pray the ATF isn’t having a slow day and perusing the internet for easy marks.
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:47 PM   #26
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...snip...

The real question is, if you are shooting a braced firearm and the brace doesn’t touch your deltoids, but is firmly planted in your pectoral muscle, is it considered shouldered?
When the regulations concerning use become so precise as to say which part of the body the accessory can or can't touch this type of question definitely displays the absurdity of the regulations. Along similar lines the armbrace makes for an adequate cheek weld even if the armbrace never touches one's shoulder.

FWIW I have witnessed LEOs, active duty .mil, and .fed employees shoot armbraced AKs and/or ARs with the brace all over their shoulder 'area' yet I haven't seen an arrest or even a word of reprimand. YMMV.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:38 PM   #27
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FWIW I have witnessed LEOs, active duty .mil, and .fed employees shoot armbraced AKs and/or ARs with the brace all over their shoulder 'area' yet I haven't seen an arrest or even a word of reprimand. YMMV.
So you list "exempt" people and expect the law to apply to them?


( Psssst, almost every member of the military has an M16 )
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:18 PM   #28
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So you list "exempt" people and expect the law to apply to them?


( Psssst, almost every member of the military has an M16 )
I think I get your point, but not all of these people were/are exempt. Just because one works for a .fed organization doesn't mean one can run free without NFA and similar restrictions. Also, Mr. Soldier isn't allowed to just take his .gov issued select fire weapon out in public. One of the LEOs even asked how to fire my Yugo M92 in FA mode. He seemed to think all AK variants allow FA fire.

Do you ever tire of arguments that have little if any bearing on the topic?
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:30 PM   #29
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I think I get your point, but not all of these people were/are exempt. Just because one works for a .fed organization doesn't mean one can run free without NFA and similar restrictions. Also, Mr. Soldier isn't allowed to just take his .gov issued select fire weapon out in public. One of the LEOs even asked how to fire my Yugo M92 in FA mode. He seemed to think all AK variants allow FA fire.

Do you ever tire of arguments that have little if any bearing on the topic?
When I was in the Army, we carried our M16s "out in public" all the time. Grocery stores, restaurants, wherever.

If we'd wanted to go to the local gun range, we probably could have.
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:41 PM   #30
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When I was in the Army, we carried our M16s "out in public" all the time. Grocery stores, restaurants, wherever.

If we'd wanted to go to the local gun range, we probably could have.
What's your point now and how does it relate to the topic of use and modifications of armbraces on 'pistols'?

When I was in high school I could put my rifle in the back window gun rack in my truck and go directly to class after a deer hunting morning. For better or worse times change. What you did 1/2 a life ago has little bearing now when the ATF is making decisions that effect the legality of our firearms whenever the urge hits them.
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:44 PM   #31
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What's your point now and how does it relate to the topic of use and modifications of armbraces on 'pistols'?

When I was in high school I could put my rifle in the back window gun rack in my truck and go directly to class after a deer hunting morning. For better or worse times change. What you did 1/2 a life ago has little bearing now when the ATF is making decisions that effect the legality of our firearms whenever the urge hits them.
Wow, what a short attention span you have.

I was responding to your previous post.


BTW, whether "half a life ago" or today, the ATF has zero jurisdiction over military personnel and federal law enforcement agencies are exempt from the NFA.
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:09 PM   #32
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Wow, what a short attention span you have.

I was responding to your previous post.


BTW, whether "half a life ago" or today, the ATF has zero jurisdiction over military personnel and federal law enforcement agencies are exempt from the NFA.
What a snarky attitude you have.

I didn't say .fed LEOs anyway, I said .fed employees, as in paper pushers and such. Go ahead with you ridiculous semantics arguements if you wish, you still aren't on the modification or normal civilian use of an armbrace topic.
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:14 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by GGGultimateAK View Post
What a snarky attitude you have.

I didn't say .fed LEOs anyway, I said .fed employees, as in paper pushers and such. Go ahead with you ridiculous semantics arguements if you wish, you still aren't on the modification or normal civilian use of an armbrace topic.
Did you know the IRS has its own SWAT team?


I've said all I care to say about arm braces across the hundreds of threads we've had on them.
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:47 PM   #34
GGGultimateAK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Did you know the IRS has its own SWAT team?


I've said all I care to say about arm braces across the hundreds of threads we've had on them.
Yes. They also have accountants

So you came to the thread to moderate I guess
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:23 PM   #35
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Dosent the aluminum tail hook brace clamp solid to the tube ??
If does why can't a rubber type??
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