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Old 10-12-2017, 02:17 AM   #1
Laufer
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Question Summarize which VZ-58s are quality products.

Having read about this totally different 7.62x39 rifle, just noticed a writer's comments about preference for the CSA (former D-Technik) products.

Are the actual 58s always better steel and assembly quality than the 2008 series, or were too many components and quality changed over the years?

If there are more dependable brands, similar to the WASR's etc quality vs. (i.e.) RAS and IO, could somebody describe their experiences?

I started the same topic over at Czech guns, on Gunboards.
Maybe there is a solid 58 brand, under $1,000 used.
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:23 AM   #2
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It's easy.

Any Vz58 built in the Czech Republic or Slovakia is 100% G2G

Any Vz58 built by Ohio Ordnance Works is mmmmmmkay ( this rifle was sold as the "Vz 2000" )

Any Vz58 built by Century is, well, built by Century
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:26 AM   #3
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Cz USA imported and czechpoint usa(d-tech) are the way to go.
The vz 58 is not a gun you can get quality without the price unless you find the above mentioned at a good used price.

The problem with century imported and assembled is the non Czech parts and the different contractors that make them at different years from what I've read.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:40 AM   #4
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Century's VZ-2008 gets mostly positive reviews, but they are not without problems and quirks:

1. Their barrel is not CHF/CL like vz.58 sporters imported by D-Technik/CSA, and that could be a problem in a humid environment. I don't think they are nitrided either and supposely made by Green Mountain with 4140 steel. If the maker is indeed Green Mountain, I have no doubt that it will serve the shooter well with a better accuracy than chrome lined ones from Czech Republic, but the life expectancy would be much shorter compared to a real one.

2. They have this infamous "gremlin" effect where a trigger wouldn't reset after pulled if the shooter puts the safety in a wrong position repeatedly (D-Technik/CSA guns are impossible to do this) and the only way to fix this problem is to weld a tab onto the bolt carrier. From what I've read, Century was actually aware of the issue before building vz.2008s but CSA apparently have a patent on tab welding design so they just built the rifle and hoped for the best. Welding a tab at the bottom of bolt carrier group isn't that big of a deal if you know someone who has tools, but it is still a nuisance nonetheless.

P.S) Apparently this gremlin effect also happens on genuine vz.58 sporters before they started welding tabs at the bottom of the bolt carrier group so make sure to check the rifle if you ever come across one in person.

3. One good thing about vz.2008s is that since they use a parts kit from a milsurp gun, the front sight base comes with a bayonet lug and you can also change out the AKM style muzzle brake if you wish to customize it. Also, you can still find these in a used market (Armslist) for around $600-700 range, unless someone put some "Tacticool" accessories and make it a $1,000 rifle, of course.


Regarding D-Technik's vz.58 sporters, I got an excellent deal from a local pawn shop few years ago (bought the thing in great condition for only $650 OTD, which is even less than what people sell their vz.2008s on Armslist nowadays) and shot the rifle bunch of times with no hiccups whatsoever. However, they are not without flaws either.

1. No bayonet lug under the barrel and threading at the end of muzzle is covered by a thread protector that is welded. Unlike ban-state friendly WASRs that have a muzzle nut that is tack welded, you can't see the weld unless you know where to dremmel, so you need to be more careful with the tools. I personally didn't bother with removing the nut since the gun shoots pretty good even without a muzzle break, but it is something to consider if you would like to customize the gun to fit your needs.

2. You would expect the rifle from Czech Republic to hold the finish well even in a most adverse condition, but my rifle's finish is literally peeling off on places where bolt locks into the receiver and inside the magazine well. You can see a little bit of that "peeling off" in the photo below that I took when I bought the rifle:



I heard that vz.58 sporters are imported with single stack magazine weld and cut to accept double stack magazine in the U.S like WASR's do, and that maybe the reason why the inside of my rifle's magazine well is almost finish-less at this point, but it can be very mind boggling if you live in a very humid environment (I live in Northwest WA so guns get rusted pretty easily around here). Now thankfully the rifle on the outside doesn't peel off that easy so it doesn't look ugly as long as you don't pay attention to the inside, but I think that may hurt the value of the rifle if you decide to sell it later (which I am not going to, at least for now ).


If you want to buy a genuine Czech made vz.58 sporters and don't want to spend more than $1,000, then I suggest stop browsing Gunbroker and start looking around local pawn shops for a good deal. Anyone who has both a D-Technik/CSA vz.58 sporter and a Gunbroker account will never let one go under $1,000, and same goes for anyone who is on AK/VZ forums too (In fact, someone from here offered me $1,300 for the rifle even though he knew I paid only $650 for it).

Now, the rifle is definitely an underdog compared to ARs and AKs and the amount of sporters sold in the U.S. is even less than Century's vz.2008s so you will be waiting a very long time to score one (It took more than 3 years to actually buy one, let alone see one in person so I wasn't ready to let it go, even at $1,300 offering). If you don't like waiting, you can certainly buy new ones from Czechpoint but they sell very few at a time and gets sold out as soon as it becomes available so you will have to wait either way. However, If I can tell you one thing, the waiting and price is worth every second/penny if you get to score one, so be prepared to save the money and spend it the moment you see a deal. Good luck!

Last edited by ZZANG1847; 10-12-2017 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZANG1847 View Post
1. No bayonet lug under the barrel and threading at the end of muzzle is covered by a thread protector that is welded. Unlike ban-state friendly WASRs that have a muzzle nut that is tack welded, you can't see the weld unless you know where to dremmel, so you need to be more careful with the tools. I personally didn't bother with removing the nut since the gun shoots pretty good even without any muzzle breaks, but it is something to consider if you would like to customize the gun to fit your needs.
One thing you need to bear in mind, is that isn't just a "muzzle nut", but a barrel extension; the military Czech barrel is just a hair under our 16" length limit, so that nut is spot welded on to bring the barrel to legal length. Cutting it off and leaving it off results in a short barreled rifle. Something to be aware of.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZANG1847 View Post
1. No bayonet lug under the barrel and threading at the end of muzzle is covered by a thread protector that is welded. Unlike ban-state friendly WASRs that have a muzzle nut that is tack welded, you can't see the weld unless you know where to dremmel, so you need to be more careful with the tools. I personally didn't bother with removing the nut since the gun shoots pretty good even without a muzzle break, but it is something to consider if you would like to customize the gun to fit your needs.
The "thread protector" is there to bring the barrel length to 16 inches from the Czech milspec 15.3333" ( The Czeck & Slovakian Vz58s use milsurp barrels )

Removing it will make you an instafelon if you do not have the parts & tools to immediately attach another muzzle device that brings the barrel length over 16".
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:55 AM   #7
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Thanks very much for the very clear briefings.
Nalioth confirmed what I read tonight, plus bits in the past. Muzzle situation similar to my (TGI) AMD-65's 12" barrel plus the wicked muzzle brake (works quite well).

A nice example of a CSA at the huge Tulsa gun show will probably list/sell for more than I would want to justify.

But one never knows who inherited unwanted/unfamiliar guns (& don't want to risk Politburo states' laws) , post-election, post-'Las Vegas' variables in demand etc.

Last edited by Laufer; 10-12-2017 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:34 AM   #8
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VZ2008's are excellent. Mine have been 100% reliable. One has 3,000 rounds on it -- still young -- and the barrel is holding up fine. They were ~$400 a few years ago with five magazines and a load of schwag. Today, they go for about $700, usually with only a mag or two. A Czechpoint, when available, is $400-500 more. The benefits of spending the extra money on the Czechpoint is the chrome-lined barrel and 5-year warranty (as opposed to Century's...ahem...warranty).

If I were to get another in today's market, I'd spend the extra money for a Czechpoint. But if you find a good deal on a VZ2008, you'll probably be happy with that as well.

A side note: Since you'd probably be buying used, when you open up the receiver you will see parallel gouge marks on the rail, as well as some scuffing (peeling) along the action. That's normal. Don't let it dissuade you as it happens to some extent or another on all makes, even the original military rifles. Aside from the gremlin solved with the welded tab, there may be a couple of other minor issues, but all are easily solved. Unless you're dealing with headspace, these rifles are very easy to work on. One of mine needed some work on the folding stock, and I shimmed out the sideways travel on the triggers, even though it didn't affect function. Otherwise, they've been rack and go.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cztulsa View Post
One thing you need to bear in mind, is that isn't just a "muzzle nut", but a barrel extension; the military Czech barrel is just a hair under our 16" length limit, so that nut is spot welded on to bring the barrel to legal length. Cutting it off and leaving it off results in a short barreled rifle. Something to be aware of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
The "thread protector" is there to bring the barrel length to 16 inches from the Czech milspec 15.3333" ( The Czeck & Slovakian Vz58s use milsurp barrels )

Removing it will make you an instafelon if you do not have the parts & tools to immediately attach another muzzle device that brings the barrel length over 16".
I saw people from other forums mentioning about it before but forgot to include it in. I guess that explains why CSA/D-Technik didn't leave the tab out in the open like WASRs do for shooters to remove it easily. While I could technically remove the thread protector, add a muzzle brake of my choice and reweld to permanently to avoid becoming a felon, that's too much of a risky move for such a tiny part so I guess I will just leave the rifle the way it is.
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:02 AM   #10
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We have offered all of them and thus far the VZ58 Rifle imported by Czechpoint has been the nicest . They are more expensive than the Century Arms kit builds but if you are looking for factory built goodness these are the way to go.




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Old 10-12-2017, 07:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZANG1847 View Post
Century's VZ-2008 gets mostly positive reviews, but they are not without problems and quirks:

1. Their barrel is not CHF/CL like vz.58 sporters imported by D-Technik/CSA, and that could be a problem in a humid environment. I don't think they are nitrided either and supposely made by Green Mountain with 4140 steel. If the maker is indeed Green Mountain, I have no doubt that it will serve the shooter well with a better accuracy than chrome lined ones from Czech Republic, but the life expectancy would be much shorter compared to a real one.
This isn't completely the case. My Century VZ2008 had a chrome lined barrel. It was a great rifle. But from the sounds of things maybe mine was an anomaly.
I only sold it because it had Century etched on it. I kinda regret selling it, but I did replace it with a Chinese AK.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:26 AM   #12
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I bought mine for $350 ;-) it's a CAI VZ2008. I always thought the guns looked like a comical AK. shockingly I like the gun, even the skinny folding stock works for me. I gave up on AK UFs. no issues so far, the carrier is un-tabbed.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:47 AM   #13
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I have one of the earliest Century models (came with tabbed carrier before Czechpoint caught on). Works great
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:23 AM   #14
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If you want a quality vz 58 then the Czechpoint is your only answer. Century and quality doesn't go together much like oil and water don't mix. The people who bought the century junk did so because it was cheap. If they were never offered or not cheap these guys would have never bought the century copy.

The century guys can ramble on all they want about their flawless round count but the fact is their century vz is a cheap POS. Czechpoint is quality. Next post from OP will be "I bought the century anyway."
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:04 AM   #15
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At my last count there are 5 different batches of the vz2008. Do not get one of the first batch.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZANG1847 View Post
I saw people from other forums mentioning about it before but forgot to include it in. I guess that explains why CSA/D-Technik didn't leave the tab out in the open like WASRs do for shooters to remove it easily. While I could technically remove the thread protector, add a muzzle brake of my choice and reweld to permanently to avoid becoming a felon, that's too much of a risky move for such a tiny part so I guess I will just leave the rifle the way it is.
I did a write-up several years ago on the CZ forum about removing the extension and blind-pinning a Czech brake on it. Don't know if you can find it there with a search, but it would be way deep by now. I wouldn't mind going back at some point and adding a replacement FSB with the bayonet lug, only because I want it. Maybe some other time.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:42 AM   #17
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Don't the Czechpoints come with a polymer trigger or something? I remember some having this.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:53 AM   #18
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My Czechpoint with Bonesteel furniture and Aimpoint would be my go-to gun when the zombies attack. Wonderful gun with incredible accuracy, despite the relatively short barrel.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
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At my last count there are 5 different batches of the vz2008. Do not get one of the first batch.
First batch had the tabbed carrier. No issues with mine. Eats everything and is accurate
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:05 AM   #20
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If you get the fixed stock version can you never add the folding stock?
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
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If you get the fixed stock version can you never add the folding stock?
Both fixed & folding stocks are attached using the same mechanism.

Maybe give this a look?

Nalioth's Vz58 pictorial
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:23 AM   #22
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If you get the fixed stock version can you never add the folding stock?
Yes you can change the stock, just one big screw in back.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:26 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornpone View Post
If you want a quality vz 58 then the Czechpoint is your only answer. Century and quality doesn't go together much like oil and water don't mix. The people who bought the century junk did so because it was cheap. If they were never offered or not cheap these guys would have never bought the century copy.

The century guys can ramble on all they want about their flawless round count but the fact is their century vz is a cheap POS. Czechpoint is quality. Next post from OP will be "I bought the century anyway."

+1

The original VZ58 is a higher quality firearm than the Century VZ2008 no doubt about it. However the Vz2008 is one of Century's better Builds and for $400.00 they were a bargain. I sold off my Vz2008 and still have my VZ58.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:28 AM   #24
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I dressed mine up in FAB defense (same ones that supply the Czechs with modern furniture) and really like how it performs. Of course, it is easily put back to its original config (no way in hell I'd get rid of the beaver barf)
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Don't the Czechpoints come with a polymer trigger or something? I remember some having this.
Yes.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:50 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Don't the Czechpoints come with a polymer trigger or something? I remember some having this.
You have the option to get an upgraded trigger for some more $$$

I have a d-technic and a newer CSA import

The d-technic is absolutely the nicer rifle and the best you could get bit it does have a welded and/or pinned extension and no bayonet lug but the original Czech barrels are very good

The CSA new import is every bit as functional and shootable but has a shitty “arsenal” finish if you will, it’s basically spray paint and does not tolerate even mild wear and tear before it chips off. The new CSA guns also come with barrels made by Lothar Walther and are also fantastic barrels, I’m going to go ahead and say that either one is better than the green mountain barrels on just about every category. If you get the full size rifle they are 16.x” barrels and will be threaded with a bayou lug, if you get either size of the pistol/krinkish? Guns there is no bayonet lug because of how the bayonet attachs you’d never be able to attach it
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Don't the Czechpoints come with a polymer trigger or something? I remember some having this.
Yes on the rifles for 922r, no on the pistols. They are completely Czech but the triggers are fine as poly and switch out to steel also an easy job. I do believe Czechpoint offers a switch over as well. I have rifles, carbines and pistols all SBRs and in 5.56 as well as x39. They are exceptional guns and as with all Czech made guns, exceptionally made.
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:36 PM   #28
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Just an interesting point is that the Czech manufactured rifles are patented (US 7676974 B2) which is why Century had to cease and desist the installiation the bolt interrupter on their rifles.
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:15 PM   #29
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Just an interesting point is that the Czech manufactured rifles are patented (US 7676974 B2) which is why Century had to cease and desist the installiation the bolt interrupter on their rifles.
There is a fellow on the CZ forum that goes by “forced march”. I think his name is Morgan but I bought several unissued carriers from RTG parts and he welds on the tab from bar stock. Excellent work. He also does other work on VZs
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3931/...f5d37ecc_b.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3941/...d5889dbe_c.jpg
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/...2bb148cc_c.jpg
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:09 PM   #30
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For me, it was always as simple as this:

1. Buy a D-Technik rifle. It has as many Czech MILITARY parts as are allowed by US import laws.
2. IGNORE everything else because it is inferior.

Pretty simple. I bought one as soon as they started importing way back when. I knew they were going to go up in value. I now own two and I can say with confidence that, out of ALL the rifles I own, my VZ58's are my absolutely no hands down favorites. They are as well built as anything else I own, including my Swiss rifles. So, if you want THE BEST, buy one of the older D-Tech rifles made from left over military parts. IGNORE everything else. Never buy a cheaper copy when you can buy the real thing. Period.

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Old 10-12-2017, 10:53 PM   #31
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About 10-15 yrs ago I bought a OOW VZ2000 and have been very happy with it. I feel it's a good quality piece and love that beautiful slate grey finish.
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Old 10-13-2017, 07:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sboone View Post
You have the option to get an upgraded trigger for some more $$$

I have a d-technic and a newer CSA import

The d-technic is absolutely the nicer rifle and the best you could get bit it does have a welded and/or pinned extension and no bayonet lug but the original Czech barrels are very good

The CSA new import is every bit as functional and shootable but has a shitty “arsenal” finish if you will, it’s basically spray paint and does not tolerate even mild wear and tear before it chips off. The new CSA guns also come with barrels made by Lothar Walther and are also fantastic barrels, I’m going to go ahead and say that either one is better than the green mountain barrels on just about every category. If you get the full size rifle they are 16.x” barrels and will be threaded with a bayou lug, if you get either size of the pistol/krinkish? Guns there is no bayonet lug because of how the bayonet attachs you’d never be able to attach it
I looked at the CSA website and it says they still do not have bayonet lugs. Was this an added option or something? I remember several places adding them in the past. I have a ban era vz2000 I'd love to replace the FSB with a lugged one on it.
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Old 10-13-2017, 07:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizenkane View Post
I looked at the CSA website and it says they still do not have bayonet lugs. Was this an added option or something? I remember several places adding them in the past. I have a ban era vz2000 I'd love to replace the FSB with a lugged one on it.
My mistake, I just looked and they say that they don’t import with bayonet lugs due to import laws. There are different vendors who have surplus FSB w/ lugs that you can buy the. Just tap out the pins pull off your old FSB and press on the new one with a lug on it. I wanna say apex sells them and maybe desert fox sales
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:10 PM   #34
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Agreed with the idea that back when the VZ2008 was $400 or even $500, and was coming with 5 mags, bayo, and accessories; it was a really good buy.

Now though with it in the $700+ range and few accessories coming with, I think the notion of saving up a bit more to get a D-technik/CSA import is the right way to go.

Czechpoint has had 3 slightly different guns; all in stock within the last year.
1) Current & modern production imports - built in the Czech Republic with a mix of new production and original surplus parts. Features a true milled receiver, 16.1" cold hammer forged & chromelined barrel made in Germany by Walther (they claim they tested these against Czech mfg barrels and found the Walthers to be better), 14x1 right hand muzzle threads, removable muzzle device (either nut or brake depending on variant), and a whole range of furniture options.
2) Older D-Technik Imports, recently converted by Czechpoint - Pretty much same as above, but these are old stock sporters imported several years ago and in storage til now. They have the original 15.4" barrel, so will come with a muzzle device pinned on (either the original extension or a Czech 'beercan' muzzle brake), built with a mix of new & surplus parts, but more likely to have more surplus for having been built earlier. Sold with military furniture; either wood or bakelite, and fixed or folding stock. Could be black or dark grey finished.
3) Czechpoint assembled kits on original Czech receivers - These are kind of like the old Arsenal SA M-7s. Czechpoint did make them here in the USA, but with a complete parts kit with original barrel and imported receiver marked D-Technik. This is the only Czechpoint model that I am aware of with a working bayonet lug, and it has a beercan brake pinned onto the original 15.4" barrel. All parts are military surplus, except for the Czech milled receiver and the 922(r) parts (FCG, follower, and floorplate).

I have all 3 myself, and honestly my favorite is the third option, because it has the bayo lug, came with the scope mount on the left side, and because its all surplus parts. Yes, it was put together here, but Czechpoint is a great outfit and did it right.

Option #1 is great too and retains the ability to switch out the muzzle device, while still having an excellent quality barrel. Plus it has a neato Czech Lion on the receiver.

Option #2 is good for having a lot of surplus parts too, but since it lacks both the bayo lug and the removable brake (plus no neat lion crest), it tends to be my least favorite. That said, It was my first Vz.58 and I like it for that reason. Mine actually came from Century and was one of the first 100 Vz.58 Sporters to ever come in. I had to convert it myself...but the Czechpoint D-Technik converts look identical to it.

Any Vz.58 built on a Czech milled receiver will serve you well. Anything sold by Czechpoint will be of great quality. They hold themselves to a high standard. They really remind me of how Arsenal Inc. used to be back 2002-2005; small company that really takes pride in its work.

Anyway, these are the reasons I like the Czech import over the Century kit build:
1) Collectibility/Desirability, the imports will simply hold value better and be easier to move along later down the road....and if not for you, maybe for your kids or grand kids when you're long gone.
2) True milled receiver - Not sure if the Century VZ2008 has an actual milled receiver? or one that is first rough cast and then machined into final shape. They have always been pretty sketchy about those kinds of details. What is know is that the imports have a true milled receiver.
3) Barrel - Really here there's no contest, the import barrel (be it Czech or German) is of higher quality with a longer service life.
4) Quality of parts - The import either has like new surplus or new new parts. The VZ2008s were built with parts ranging from int condition down to just 'Good' condition. I have seen some pretty heavy wear on some of their parts; not enough to effect anything but enough to be cosmetically 'meh.'
4) And this is a weird one, recoil - For some reason, the Century VZ2008 (at least some of them) has more felt recoil than an import. I do not know why this is, but it has been observed by myself and several others when firing both back-to-back. Three possible reasons come to mind...could be that the Century receiver has different structure and thus transmits vibrations/recoil differently. Or could be that the recoil springs that Century uses have more milage on them, so are a bit weaker than the ones in the imports. Or could be that the Century barrel has a larger gas port, thus the rifles have a slightly more violent action? All just guesses really.

In the end, the Czech imports are just better guns....however, if you do stumble upon a VZ2008 for $500 or so and it has a lot of mags, its not a bad rifle and would be a fun plinker.
But if you have to pay much more, just save up and get the real thing. I really think in the end you won't regret it. And hey, if you do just e-mail me and I'll buy it off you. I've never regretted any of the imports; either buying for myself or for my store. I've sold a good number of them, both Century and imports.
Customer satisfaction has been 100% with the imports. Seriously, I can not recall a single complaint or major issue. One time I sent a guy a steel trigger because he didn't like the polymer one, but no big deal. Those triggers are cheap.
As for the VZ2008s, most I sold guys really liked but we did have a few problems and a couple guns that just didn't work and had to be sent back.
One of the problems was actually with the gun that went to Jay (my youtube partner). His FCG was pretty messed up right out of the box. He had to take it out of the VZ2008, correct a couple things, and then reinstall it. The rifle worked fine after that, but in the end he sold it and bought a Czechpoint.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:20 PM   #35
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I had an early D-technic and sold it late last year due as I never had a desire to shoot it with all the AK's I've got to shoot. Now I'm itching to find one again.
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