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Old 04-15-2019, 08:13 PM   #71
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Not really.

Barrel hardness, longevity, etc. are about the same between eastern bloc countries.
Reading comprehension, my friend.

Go back and read my posts. Not once did I mention a Romanian barrel keyholing.
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:16 PM   #72
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Reading comprehension, my friend.

Go back and read my posts. Not once did I mention a Romanian barrel keyholing.


My original comment was about barrel quality, to which you responded you would not put Romanians up high on the list.

I think I comprehended what you said just fine.

If I misunderstood, care to clarify?
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:20 PM   #73
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My original comment was about barrel quality, to which you responded you would not put Romanians up high on the list.

I think I comprehended what you said just fine.

If I misunderstood, care to clarify?
Good, we're halfway there. Now go look at your response.
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:29 PM   #74
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Good, we're halfway there. Now go look at your response.
c'mon, really? My response was in relation to barrel quality. you are picking the wrong fight, every response was on target. Back to barrels.

Point being Romanian barrels have just as long longevity, hardness, and accuracy as other eastern block barrels.
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:30 PM   #75
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All of these barrels are produced on the same machinery from Steyr.

All use almost the exact same steel quality.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:35 PM   #76
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buy it used?

well loved?

round count?

mag dumper?

I'm genuinely curious.
Brand new in box 10/63. Out of the box keyholing shit. Never a mag dump. It was such an egregious piece of crap it turned me away from AKs in general for years.

That being said, my AES-10B is matched in accuracy only by my PSA lol. So I'm not saying Romania can't build barrels. I'd love to add a SAR one day.

My only point in this thread is that arguing anything must be good because the military uses it is pure fucking retarded.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:52 PM   #77
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Lets keep in mind, what should be 1 very obvious fact of life.
All nations have undergone economic recessions, depressions, etc.

In America, I'll use General Motors as a most recent example of QC taking a nose dive
in the 5 years prior to the 2007-2011 recession. That led them to mismanagement of
funds, assets, eventual bankruptcy, bailout, .....corporatism. After the recession GM had the most recorded recalls of their entire history from that leadup to the crash as a result of SNAFU management.

Now lets switch the topic to Romania & Bulgaria
We all know these aren't 1st world countries like America. Romania has had a checkered history of QC, just like Bulgaria. It is not outside the realm of reasonable speculation based on what we CAN confirm, that Romania or Bulgaria has suffered tough economic time periods that led to lessor QC strings of time. Maybe Nicolae came to work drunk that day, or Vasille got fired, and a new recruit with lessor knowledge ran the machines. WE all know for sure there was a period of very bad rifles, and Century Arms was blamed for it all as the importer/modder.

My point being, I don't think we can 100% factually say every year in either Romania, or Bulgaria that QC or materials used has been exactly the same. We are all guessing here, and reports of Good , bad, fantastic, and abysmal have been reported for years.

Bottomline, fluctuating economics, and human error is involved. Nothing is perfect.
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:01 AM   #78
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All of these barrels are produced on the same machinery from Steyr.

All use almost the exact same steel quality.
And you wonder why I'm trying to hold your hand with a reading comprehension lesson.

Just because it's made on Steyr machinery, or using the same type of steel, doesn't mean the worker that day didn't screw up the quality control. There's still a human element, and the Romanians Cugir hires seem to take an extra shot or two of vodka or rakija or whatever the fuck it is they drink in Romania.

Do the barrels work? Yes.
Are they "high quality"? No.

I have an Egyptian Maadi built on "Soviet machinery" by "Soviet trained workers". Front trunnion is installed improperly and bored on an angle, so the barrel is tilted to one side.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:22 AM   #79
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And you wonder why I'm trying to hold your hand with a reading comprehension lesson.

Just because it's made on Steyr machinery, or using the same type of steel, doesn't mean the worker that day didn't screw up the quality control. There's still a human element, and the Romanians Cugir hires seem to take an extra shot or two of vodka or rakija or whatever the fuck it is they drink in Romania.

Do the barrels work? Yes.
Are they "high quality"? No.

I have an Egyptian Maadi built on "Soviet machinery" by "Soviet trained workers". Front trunnion is installed improperly and bored on an angle, so the barrel is tilted to one side.
Now, I only have two Romanian guns, the 10/63 that scared me out of AKs, and an AES-10B I picked up used this year. The 10/63 I chock up to being crap because it was a WASR. That said, the AES-10B is more crooked than a politician. I mean, the first thing I show ANYONE who looks at it is the fact that there's not a straight line on the whole damn thing! It's twisted, it's bumpy, it looks like it was cobbled together by a drunken monkey. I mean, it's so bad it's comical.

The second thing I show them is that it shoots straight as a lazer.

It's actually funny seeing how such a sloppy looking gun is still such a great shooter. So yeah, QC is all over the place, but I think from what I've seen, each country has it's own QC questions and stereotypes. Romania (since that's been the topic here) by all acounts seems to be assembled by drunk monkeys, but out of apocalyptic reliable metal.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:27 AM   #80
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And you wonder why I'm trying to hold your hand with a reading comprehension lesson.

Just because it's made on Steyr machinery, or using the same type of steel, doesn't mean the worker that day didn't screw up the quality control. There's still a human element, and the Romanians Cugir hires seem to take an extra shot or two of vodka or rakija or whatever the fuck it is they drink in Romania.

Do the barrels work? Yes.
Are they "high quality"? No.

I have an Egyptian Maadi built on "Soviet machinery" by "Soviet trained workers". Front trunnion is installed improperly and bored on an angle, so the barrel is tilted to one side.
I'm not talking about QC. Again, we are discussing barrels.

All eastern bloc war factories have vodka breaks...
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:30 AM   #81
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You can't exclude QC from any manufacturing discussion.

There is QC into the materials ,
QC into the steel grades,
QC into the rolling of the barrels,
QC into many processes

Put a newcomer into any single point of those processes, and it can net a bad outcome.

One thing we can confirm is that Rob Ski has had a few very bad QC barrels from Bulgaria, as well as Romania.
Throat erosion , accuracy, installation SNAFU, etc.

If you want an example of piss poor American QC that is a rolling hill of ups and downs, just look to Chrysler.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:35 AM   #82
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You can't exclude QC from any manufacturing discussion.
You're right, but CHF barrel making has become an automated process. There is not too many things you have to have a human do.

I concur, there are certainly QC issues on many AKs from Romania, Bulgaria, pretty much everywhere.

Barrel steel quality is almost uniform between the different Eastern Bloc AK manufacturers. We are not talking match grade barrels here, but good quality barrels that can put a 3-5 inch group on a target at 300, and last tens of thousands of rounds of 7.62x39mm.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:37 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
You can't exclude QC from any manufacturing discussion.

There is QC into the materials ,
QC into the steel grades,
QC into the rolling of the barrels,
QC into many processes

Put a newcomer into any single point of those processes, and it can net a bad outcome.

One thing we can confirm is that Rob Ski has had a few very bad QC barrels from Bulgaria, as well as Romania.
Throat erosion , accuracy, installation SNAFU, etc.

If you want an example of piss poor American QC that is a rolling hill of ups and downs, just look to Chrysler.
I almost forgot about steel rolling. You bring up a fair point.

But I believe this has become heavily automated as well
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:38 AM   #84
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For the most part, I can say I have no EXACT idea how the production is at Izhmash, Cugir, or Arsenal.

As I have never seen the processes 1st hand, but I have seen the lines of people in Izhmash where
measuring, etc takes place to ensure well......QC.

It is outside of everyone's true knowledge here if the materials quality has remained true, or changed.
Perhaps Steel grades got expensive in say a random year of 2014 and they used more of an alloy they
thought no one would ever notice.

We don't exactly test barrels here routinely so it's easy to slip things like this by the buying public.
Would you not agree ?? It's my speculation that some barrels are showing erosion after only a few
thousand rounds, while others historically lasted 100,000 means that something is amiss.

Take WASR10/63's for example, some have proven to be legendary.
Others have come here all fooked up and failed far more prematurely in the same environment of BFLV
This tells us that manufacturing consistency isn't as solid with QC everyday, or in every step it fluctuates.

Same with Bulgarian rifles, numerous owners have complained about kaka QC for $1000 asking prices.
Far as I have seen, if you follow harsh economic times, you will notice a drop off in QC periods of production.

From my own perspective, the Russians made the best barrels. Molot especially.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:45 AM   #85
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For the most part, I can say I have no EXACT idea how the production is at Izhmash, Cugir, or Arsenal.

As I have never seen the processes 1st hand, but I have seen the lines of people in Izhmash where
measuring, etc takes place to ensure well......QC.

It is outside of everyone's true knowledge here if the materials quality has remained true, or changed.
Perhaps Steel grades got expensive in say a random year of 2014 and they used more of an alloy they
thought no one would ever notice.

We don't exactly test barrels here routinely so it's easy to slip things like this by the buying public.
Would you not agree ?? It's my speculation that some barrels are showing erosion after only a few
thousand rounds, while others historically lasted 100,000 means that something is amiss.
I can only speak from what I have observed, studied and shot. I personally have never shot out a Romanian barrel. They have been documented by BFLV t last to around 100,000 without keyholing. I have read several accounts of guys pumping 50,000 rounds over 15-20 years through their Romanian in just semi-auto with no major erosion or keyholing. I've seen what my buddies have done to theirs, I have inspected the barrels of many AKs of all makes.

Are there duds? for sure.

But overall I can say a CHF barrel from an AK, a 4150 nitride barrel or CHF 5.56 AR barrel, all of these can last well into the 10s of thousands of rounds and still place reasonable groupings on target.

In my view that is quality
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:46 AM   #86
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From my own perspective, the Russians made the best barrels. Molot especially.
I would agree with that, with Poland as a close second.
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:03 AM   #87
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Are there duds? for sure.

But overall I can say a CHF barrel from an AK, a 4150 nitride barrel or CHF 5.56 AR barrel, all of these can last well into the 10s of thousands of rounds and still place reasonable groupings on target.

In my view that is quality
I can agree with that.

I will say I believe CHF is a stronger product, but I don't think 4150 CMV is bad at all for
the intended lifelong usage it would actually see in my possession with many variants.
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I would agree with that, with Poland as a close second.
Just asking cuz I'm curious......why do you say Fabrynka Broni as a 2nd ??

I recall Chase from Definitive Arms was not impressed with them and it created a stir here.
Just curious what your metrics or testing done you've researched to give you this opinion.
I haven't seen long enough standing evidence myself yet.......

Mind you I'm 1/2 Polish, but I still won't give a free pass without reputable evidence
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:13 AM   #88
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I can agree with that.

I will say I believe CHF is a stronger product, but I don't think 4150 CMV is bad at all for
the intended lifelong usage it would actually see in my possession with many variants.


Just asking cuz I'm curious......why do you say Fabrynka Broni as a 2nd ??

I recall Chase from Definitive Arms was not impressed with them and it created a stir here.
Just curious what your metrics or testing done you've researched to give you this opinion.
I haven't seen long enough standing evidence myself yet.......

Mind you I'm 1/2 Polish, but I still won't give a free pass without reputable evidence
Chase's call on them, as I recall, was that he could cut through them more easily than most barrels. Now, I'm not an armorer, but that to me isn't necessarily a sign of poor quality. Perhaps a chosen trade off for less hardness = less brittleness over time?
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:18 AM   #89
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That is what I recall.

In a world where we seek to achieve hardness in barrels,
...... I dunno if I'd call that good tho either comparatively.

What I would say is.......we need more comparative analysis to get a more informed opinion.
RIght now, I have been trying to research and there's just not much longevity data out there yet to analyze.

I would have liked to have seen the TULA MOA performance out of the FB barrel on the WBP after 5,000 rds.
This way we could have at least set a metric compared to the Paratroopers abysmal 7 MOA rating after 5,000 rds.
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:03 PM   #90
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That is what I recall.

In a world where we seek to achieve hardness in barrels,
...... I dunno if I'd call that good tho either comparatively.

What I would say is.......we need more comparative analysis to get a more informed opinion.
RIght now, I have been trying to research and there's just not much longevity data out there yet to analyze.

I would have liked to have seen the TULA MOA performance out of the FB barrel on the WBP after 5,000 rds.
This way we could have at least set a metric compared to the Paratroopers abysmal 7 MOA rating after 5,000 rds.
I imagine if we ask nicely, Rob can go test that for us next time he's at the range. Doesn't take much time or ammo.
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:38 PM   #91
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All of these barrels are produced on the same machinery from Steyr.

All use almost the exact same steel quality.
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c'mon, really? My response was in relation to barrel quality. you are picking the wrong fight, every response was on target. Back to barrels.

Point being Romanian barrels have just as long longevity, hardness, and accuracy as other eastern block barrels.
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You're right, but CHF barrel making has become an automated process. There is not too many things you have to have a human do.

I concur, there are certainly QC issues on many AKs from Romania, Bulgaria, pretty much everywhere.

Barrel steel quality is almost uniform between the different Eastern Bloc AK manufacturers. We are not talking match grade barrels here, but good quality barrels that can put a 3-5 inch group on a target at 300, and last tens of thousands of rounds of 7.62x39mm.
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I would agree with that, with Poland as a close second.
Thank you for finally realizing there's differences between countries who make AK barrels
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:56 PM   #92
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Thank you for finally realizing there's differences between countries who make AK barrels
Russia is not Eastern Bloc...

Bulgaria, Romania, etc. all produce similar barrels. Russia has always had better QC
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:31 PM   #93
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Russia is not Eastern Bloc...
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:47 PM   #94
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Eastern Block refers to the Nations of Eastern Europe that were allied to the Soviet Union.

You really enjoy pissing matches.
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:55 PM   #95
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Eastern Block refers to the Nations of Eastern Europe that were allied to the Soviet Union.

You really enjoy pissing matches.
Uh... I think it's pretty safe to say Russia is the HEART of Eastern Bloc, and thus is included in that data set...
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:56 PM   #96
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Eastern Block refers to the Nations of Eastern Europe that were allied to the Soviet Union.
Says who?
USSR has always being a part of the Eastern Block.
Using your definition, recommending newbie an Eastern block AK would exclude Russian AKs.
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Old 04-16-2019, 05:46 PM   #97
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Eastern Block refers to the Nations of Eastern Europe that were allied to the Soviet Union.

You really enjoy pissing matches.
Lol Russia not eastern block.That made me laugh.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:49 PM   #98
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I think that you made an "oops" there, no biggie.
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Member Countries

The member countries of the Eastern Bloc were spread across eastern and central Europe and comprised of The Soviet Union, Poland, East Germany, Albania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...tern-bloc.html

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What are the 15 countries of the Soviet Union?

Politically the USSR was divided (from 1940 to 1991) into 15 constituent or union republics—Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belorussia (see Belarus), Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kirghizia (see Kyrgyzstan), Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia (see Moldova), Russia, Tadzhikistan (see Tajikistan), Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekista
https://www.encyclopedia.com/places/...list-republics
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:29 PM   #99
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"sipping on a Honey Jack 'n Coke looking at a Flame about former eastern bloc countries..."
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:37 PM   #100
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Entertaining thread. Especially the Eastern bloc geography lesson fail.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:46 PM   #101
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"sipping on a Honey Jack 'n Coke looking at a Flame about former eastern bloc countries..."

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Old 04-16-2019, 10:34 PM   #102
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True, but CHF is also important. Forging is what makes barrel stronger. Black barrels are toys for $300 AR's...
So what will you have to say when, if has been posted here, the US Military does indeed switch to nitirted barrels. Which would then make nitrideing "mil-spec".
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:38 PM   #103
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I can only speak from what I have observed, studied and shot. I personally have never shot out a Romanian barrel. They have been documented by BFLV t last to around 100,000 without keyholing. I have read several accounts of guys pumping 50,000 rounds over 15-20 years through their Romanian in just semi-auto with no major erosion or keyholing. I've seen what my buddies have done to theirs, I have inspected the barrels of many AKs of all makes.

Are there duds? for sure.

But overall I can say a CHF barrel from an AK, a 4150 nitride barrel or CHF 5.56 AR barrel, all of these can last well into the 10s of thousands of rounds and still place reasonable groupings on target.

In my view that is quality
"Not keyholing" isn't much of a standard to meet.

Bullet exits barrel and hits "somewhere" on a 2 foot square(?) target at what 25yds (never been to BFLV so please fill me in) without getting sideways in that distance. So weapon could be shooting 10+ MOA at that point.

I also seem to remember reading that the life expectancy out of a chrome lined M4 barrel in US Military use was only 6000 rds.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:47 PM   #104
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So what will you have to say when, if has been posted here, the US Military does indeed switch to nitirted barrels. Which would then make nitrideing "mil-spec".
Is US Military using AK's? Anyway, nitriding is not used by any army not just US, so your argument is funny and already discussed, just read above and don't be ignorant.
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:04 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Steve_In_29 View Post
"Not keyholing" isn't much of a standard to meet.

Bullet exits barrel and hits "somewhere" on a 2 foot square(?) target at what 25yds (never been to BFLV so please fill me in) without getting sideways in that distance. So weapon could be shooting 10+ MOA at that point.
I haven't been there either but there's videos and pictures online. It's a tourist shooting range, indoors as well.

From what I've read, their requirements for barrels are basically:
  1. Hit the Target
  2. Don't Keyhole
  3. Don't Explode
The longer a barrel can do those 3 things, the better.
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