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Old 04-18-2014, 03:44 PM   #141
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First a Ford Fiesta comparison, and now a Scotch and Bud Light argument.

The title of this sub-forum is "SVDs and RomAK IIIs". Its not "SVDs and PSLs and FALs and SVTs". Its not "SVDs and any rifle that fires 7.62x54R".

You might notice that there is also an "AK47" sub-forum on this site. From the description of that sub-forum, its for: "The one. The only. The original 7.62x39 assault rifle. Plus the myriad of copies and variants, great and small." According to many of the posters in this thread, the PSL is nothing but an AK and in no way related to the SVD. Yet the very knowledgeable people who built this site felt that the PSL was enough like the SVD than it was categorized with that rifle instead of the rest of the AKs... how did this possibly happen when every "intelligent" person realizes that a Romanian PSL and a Russian SVD are as different as Scotch whiskey and Bud Light beer? Supposedly I only do it for financial gain, so what is the ulterior motive here?

Then there is still my observation about Berg using the exact same terminology as myself when referring to the Romanian version of the Dragunov scope:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apache View Post
Here's a good example. On Berg's new website he discusses the Romanian TIP2 scope (http://www.designatedmarksman.net/romanian_psl.html). He says, "The sniper scope provided with the PSL is the Romanian version of the PSO-1 which has no battery compartment." I say, about the PSL, that it's the "Romanian version of the Dragunov." You can argue all day that the TIP2 is CLEARLY not a PSO-1. The mechanism of operation is completely different. One uses tritium illumination and the other uses a battery. Just because they look similar and carry out the same function doesn't mean they are the same scope. So is Berg a liar for calling the Romanian TIP2, which was clearly based on the Russian Dragunov's PSO-1 scope, the Romanian version of that scope? No? (I don't). But I'm a liar for calling the Romanian PSL the Romanian version of the Dragunov for the exact same reason? The TIP2 and the PSL were probably both designed in the same room by the same people and they were clearly using the Russian Dragunov and its equipment as their guideline.

So, I mislead people and "perpetuate myths" by grouping the Romanian PSL together with the Russian Dragunov, am called a fraudulant scammer for doing so, but this website doing it is completely acceptable and has been for more years than I've been selling guns?

Amazing.

Last edited by Apache; 04-18-2014 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 04-18-2014, 04:03 PM   #142
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Apache when 10 people tell you you're drunk. You can pull out the keys and drive or you can listen to reason.

Top collectors have told you many times what you have done is shady. Yet you continue to say you are right and how wrong everyone else is.

Its clear you plan to do what you want to do regardless of public fact and thats the only thing "amazing" about this thread.
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Old 04-18-2014, 04:11 PM   #143
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*yawn*

All of this bickering. Yes, the Romanians wanted to make a rifle like the SVD and cheaply. So they blew up an AK and now we have the PSL. A PSL is a PSL and an SVD is an SVD. It does not matter what their inspiration was. One has little to do, design wise, with the other. The only valid similarities are the length of the firearm and the cartridge they fire (wait for it). The Yugo M76 fits into this category as well, as it is also a large caliber Combloc sniper. The M76 is also a blown up AK and to that end has far more in common with the PSL than the SVD. Yet I do not see anyone referencing the two in for sale listings or really anywhere else.

Long story short you are using the popularity of the SVD to attract ignorant folks to your auctions. This, I believe, you cannot deny. Is this unethical? In this case that is easily a subjective question and hard to answer. But this one I can, do I like it? No, not at all. So it goes with many on this board and now we have this thread. The pricing does not help. Most AKFilers have no issue with capitalism. Most have an issue when it happens within the ranks. Scooping up a deal on a forum and then trying to flip it to the same people is one of the worst online party fouls known to man. You will gain nothing from posting in this thread except to show your ass due to the obvious frustration. We are not your market, do not waste your time here.
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Old 04-18-2014, 05:39 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittrell View Post
*yawn*

All of this bickering. Yes, the Romanians wanted to make a rifle like the SVD and cheaply. So they blew up an AK and now we have the PSL. A PSL is a PSL and an SVD is an SVD. It does not matter what their inspiration was. One has little to do, design wise, with the other. The only valid similarities are the length of the firearm and the cartridge they fire (wait for it). The Yugo M76 fits into this category as well, as it is also a large caliber Combloc sniper. The M76 is also a blown up AK and to that end has far more in common with the PSL than the SVD. Yet I do not see anyone referencing the two in for sale listings or really anywhere else.

Long story short you are using the popularity of the SVD to attract ignorant folks to your auctions. This, I believe, you cannot deny. Is this unethical? In this case that is easily a subjective question and hard to answer. But this one I can, do I like it? No, not at all. So it goes with many on this board and now we have this thread. The pricing does not help. Most AKFilers have no issue with capitalism. Most have an issue when it happens within the ranks. Scooping up a deal on a forum and then trying to flip it to the same people is one of the worst online party fouls known to man. You will gain nothing from posting in this thread except to show your ass due to the obvious frustration. We are not your market, do not waste your time here.
Best post in thread.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:08 PM   #145
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Apache when 10 people tell you you're drunk. You can pull out the keys and drive or you can listen to reason.
Reason? I've heard a lot in this thread, but very little reason. When 10 people tell you something there is a lot to consider. First, you need to look at their credibility. We've talked about credibility already in this thread so why won't repeat it. When 10 people from the Westboro Baptist Church say something... lets just say it doesn't hold much water. But even 10 police officers need a valid breathalyzer before "fact" is established. Posting your opinion over and over again, and having your like-minded buddy repeat it with you, does not make it a fact.

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Top collectors have told you many times what you have done is shady. Yet you continue to say you are right and how wrong everyone else is.
Top collector? You don't seriously consider yourself a top collector do you? The only top collector that I've noticed chime in so far was chawkpilot, and he had this to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chawkpilot
I have never done business with the guy so I have no beef with him. If you have done business and have felt ripped off then I guess you have a legitimate right to flame the guy, if not then I say take the high ground.
No, I already said most of the intelligent members of this forum, the true experts, don't want to be associated with dive threads like this one.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:10 PM   #146
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We are not your market, do not waste your time here.
Well, shoot. If you change your mind, let me know. Special pricing just for you.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:14 PM   #147
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Top collector? You don't seriously consider yourself a top collector do you? The only top collector that I've noticed chime in so far was chawkpilot, and he had this to say:
I think NCreptile is considered a top collector. He has many many weapons.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:16 PM   #148
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I think NCreptile is considered a top collector. He has many many weapons.
I believe cost and rarity comes into play here. This is just an opinion of what makes a top collector with nothing directed at ncreptile (who for all intents and purposes in no way to referred to himself as one).

The fact of the matter is that Apache Arms, to my knowledge, has not ripped anyone off. Buying something at a higher price because you are ignorant of the facts does not mean you got ripped off, it makes you a sucker. Getting ripped off is having someone steal from you, whether that be by flat out not delivering, or delivering something that is not what you paid for. In either case, that does not apply here.
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Old 04-18-2014, 09:58 PM   #149
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Asspache is a commie democrap.

FACT - Asspache uses misinformation to profit from the uninformed.

FACT - Asspache plays the race card when he can't unpaint himself out of a corner.

FACT - Asspache forms his arguments with snipets from others quotes.

FACT - Asspache fucking sucks and is here to troll.
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:49 PM   #150
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I don't think he's here to troll. This is his business and he does not want this out there without him getting a word in.

The issue is he seems to be so arrogant that he refuses to allow the idea of someone else being right into his mind.

@apache
I would not consider myself a top collector, rather a jack of all trades as I enjoy dabbling in everything once in a while as my interests change.

I wont say chawk is not a top collector because I do not know him well enough. But its clear you picked him out(just as you picked out others in this thread) because he went less hard on you than the rest.

This is not the "Westboro Church", it is a AK forum for AK collectors and the community has spoken on what a PSL is and is not.

You are like a poker player who is deep in debt at the table but is unwilling to just admit he lost and walk away. Have fun with it, this is my last post in here since its become a circus.
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Old 04-20-2014, 02:40 PM   #151
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You are like a poker player who is deep in debt at the table but is unwilling to just admit he lost and walk away. Have fun with it, this is my last post in here since its become a circus.
Asspache would be more than willing to go out in the alley and suck away his debt so he wouldn't lose.
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:33 PM   #152
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I just read this entire thread, and was unaware of Apache or this controversy an hour ago. Here are my observations:

1. The description of the PSL's most deceptive statement is the claim that the PSL is an improvement on the SVD. Despite repeated inquires, Apache has not addressed this point, but has admitted that the SVD is more accurate.

2. It is very unprofessional make personnel attacks in a public forum, and foolish to make broad statements intended to disparage the majority of the forum.

3. Just as Apache has the right to blatantly buy rifles with the intention to resell them and to price his merchandise as he wishes, we all have the right to make public our opinions of his business practices and express our disapproval.

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Old 04-22-2014, 01:24 AM   #153
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1. The description of the PSL's most deceptive statement is the claim that the PSL is an improvement on the SVD. Despite repeated inquires, Apache has not addressed this point, but has admitted that the SVD is more accurate.
Its not deceptive to state my opinion. Its a pretty far reach to say that someone's opinion is deceptive at all.

Example: If someone says that the Russian's stamped AK was an improvement over the milled AK, it would be an opinion. I'm sure there are people who would consider that to be a false statement because they have a different opinion. Those people might say that the benefits of the milled receiver were well worth the weight and production costs and that the stamped rifles were a step backwards. Then the person who believes that the stamped AK was an improvement would point out that the stamped AK does the same thing as the milled AK, is easier and cheaper to produce, and is lighter. Neither person's opinion would be wrong, and both are made legitimate by providing supporting evidence.

"Despite repeated inquiries..." Are you serious? You claim to have just read the entire thread from start to finish, so maybe you did some skimming. I'll help you out, just like I helped out my good friend RollDice. It was covered in post #52 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=52), paragraph 1 of this thread. I then provided a link to post #52 in post #128 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=128) for those that missed it the first time. And now I'm repeating a third time, and will re-state just for you, since you're one of only three people in this thread who have had the courtesy to write an entire three paragraphs without resorting to profanity or perverse sexual references.

I state in my advertisements that the Romanian PSL was an improvement on the Russian SVD as far as reliability goes. I also mention that the Romanians used an AK action. The AK action is, in my opinion, one of the most reliable semi-automatic action designs in history. I'm not the only person that shares this opinion and I guarantee that if you ask 10 firearms experts to give a list of the most reliable semiautomatic rifle actions they will list the Kalashnikov action before the SVD action 10 out of 10 times. This is, in my opinion, an improvement. I have previously noted that its a minor improvement, as the SVD action is already a superb mechanism.

What I do not say in my advertisements, but will say now (again... it, too, was stated pretty clearly in post #52) is that the cost and ease of manufacturing of the PSL makes it an improvement over the Russian SVD for many of the same reasons as the stamped AK was, arguably, an improvement over the milled. The Romanians could pump out more rifles, and do it more cheaply and more quickly, than the Russians could produce SVDs. This is a huge benefit if I'm outfitting an entire military. If I can put out two sniper rifles for every squad or platoon instead of just one, for the same cost without sacrificing capabilities, its an improvement in my book.

What else did I say in post #52? Something about endless repetition of the same exact things being said over and over?...

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2. It is very unprofessional make personnel attacks in a public forum, and foolish to make broad statements intended to disparage the majority of the forum.
I think you were trying to say "personal" attacks. And I agree with you completely. That's why out of dozens of personal attacks aimed at me in this thread, to include an endless supply of "ass" references and a less-than-creative "sucking" comment posted directly before yours, I've remained professional and kept to posting facts or pointing out the Hindenburg size holes in some of the arguments posted in between expletives.

I may not have been clear, though, when I initially posted that I was referring only to the loud, foul-mouthed, semi-literate and hopelessly ignorant children who had already posted in the thread. I was not referring to every member of this forum. There are good apples here, but they are drowned out by the massively noisy panting of the mouth breathers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
3. Just as Apache has the right to blatantly buy rifles with the intention to resell them and to price his merchandise as he wishes, we all have the right to make public our opinions of his business practices and express our disapproval.
I like how you use the word "blatantly" like I'm doing something wrong. Like a realtor who blatantly buys a property only to blatantly sell it again. I'm terribly sorry that you disapprove of me buying and selling things. Its my opinion that capitalism is a good thing and we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:51 AM   #154
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"A communist sniper issued a Dragunov rifle in the Afghan war stated that he felt confident hitting people out to 800 yds with one shot, and vehicles up to 1000 yds"

Source, dragunov.net, per Apache Arms, earlier in this thread.

Unanswered - Was the sniper talking about the SVD or the Romanian "Dragunov"?

If he was talking about the SVD, why not clarify that?

EDIT: Found the link - http://dragunov.net/interview.html

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Old 04-22-2014, 07:09 AM   #155
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Opinions that are backed up with data from reliable sources are much more persuasive than those formed using other unsubstanciated opinions. Are the 10 imaginary firearms experts the only source you can sight to back your claim that the PSL is an improvement over the SVD? The original cost of producing the rifles seems irrelevant to a discussion comparing the capabilities of the two rifles, since it has no effect on performance.

My second and third observations are just my opinions, which are just as valid as yours and anyone else's.

Last edited by wildbill; 04-22-2014 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:31 AM   #156
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List the improvements the Romanians added to Dragunov's short stroke rifle. Building a Ak in 54r is not improving Dragunov's design, it is enlarging Kalashnikov's.

Yugoslavia had a version of the SKS with a grenade launcher, China's version had a spike bayonet. China also sold versions without a stripper clip guide on the bolt carrier.
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:35 AM   #157
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If he was talking about the SVD, why not clarify that?
Because I think it would confuse rather than clarify. I could foresee an uptick in calls and emails asking whether or not the Romanian version can do the same thing, to which I would answer yes.

If you can provide empirical data showing that the likelihood of a first round hit on a man-sized target by a well-trained shooter with the Romanian rifle at the stated distance is materially different from the Russian version, then I will change the description. My position is that they are comparable in capabilities and will be until proven otherwise.
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:55 AM   #158
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Opinions that are backed up with data from reliable sources are much more persuasive than those formed using other unsubstanciated opinions.
My data? Where's your data, Chuck? Wheres your empirical evidence supporting your substantiated opinion? Since you've stated no clear hypothesis or theory, I'll even let you pick whichever drifiting thought you think you can best support. The burden of proof is not on me and I'm not guilty until proven innocent. Obama hasn't changed that yet. I'm also not the one running around telling everybody that their opinions are wrong and calling them liars. If I do accuse someone of something, like accusing Lenin of playing a larger part in the BHA fiasco than he admits, I back it up with facts like the quality of photoshopped images going downhill after the IT guy Lenin left. Thats circumstantial evidence, but its evidence. Now, I still don't know for a fact that he's a lying crook, but the evidence is pretty strong. The keyword there is evidence, not just that I disagreed with him about an opinion he had.

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Are the 10 imaginary firearms experts the only source you can sight to back your claim that the PSL is an improvement over the SVD?
Reading. Comprehension. Would it help if i used more emoticons and hashtags? I will do that, for you, because I like you, if that is what it takes. I said any 10 experts, not 10 imaginary experts. Are you seriously trying to argue that the Kalashnikov action is not widely regarded as one of the most reliable of all time? Its your right to have an opinion, but if you Google "most reliable semi-automatic action" tell me how many results come up with SVD before AK. And its "cite", not "sight".


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The original cost of producing the rifles seems irrelevant to a discussion comparing the capabilities of the two rifles, since it has no effect on performance.
This is absolutely not a discussion confined to the performance of the Romanian version of the Dragunov. And cost of production most certainly plays a role in any discussion about the strengths of the Romanian design. The United States set up the new and improved Iraqi Army with sniper rifles. Guess what Uncle Sam bought for them? Romanians won the contract. Guess what the ANA snipers are predominately using? Thats right, they went Romanian. Why would they buy the more expensive SVD when they get the same capabilities for half price, and with a common manual of arms to their AKs to boot? Because the SVD is prettier? Or because the Romanian version met their needs better?

Last edited by Apache; 04-22-2014 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:17 PM   #159
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My data? Where's your data, Chuck? Wheres your empirical evidence supporting your substantiated opinion? Since you've stated no clear hypothesis or theory, I'll even let you pick whichever drifiting thought you think you can best support. The burden of proof is not on me and I'm not guilty until proven innocent. Obama hasn't changed that yet. I'm also not the one running around telling everybody that their opinions are wrong and calling them liars. If I do accuse someone of something, like accusing Lenin of playing a larger part in the BHA fiasco than he admits, I back it up with facts like the quality of photoshopped images going downhill after the IT guy Lenin left. Thats circumstantial evidence, but its evidence. Now, I still don't know for a fact that he's a lying crook, but the evidence is pretty strong. The keyword there is evidence, not just that I disagreed with him about an opinion he had.


Reading. Comprehension. Would it help if i used more emoticons and hashtags? I will do that, for you, because I like you, if that is what it takes. I said any 10 experts, not 10 imaginary experts. Are you seriously trying to argue that the Kalashnikov action is not widely regarded as one of the most reliable of all time? Its your right to have an opinion, but if you Google "most reliable semi-automatic action" tell me how many results come up with SVD before AK. And its "cite", not "sight".



This is absolutely not a discussion confined to the performance of the Romanian version of the Dragunov. And cost of production most certainly plays a role in any discussion about the strengths of the Romanian design. The United States set up the new and improved Iraqi Army with sniper rifles. Guess what Uncle Sam bought for them? Romanians won the contract. Guess what the ANA snipers are predominately using? Thats right, they went Romanian. Why would they buy the more expensive SVD when they get the same capabilities for half price, and with a common manual of arms to their AKs to boot? Because the SVD is prettier? Or because the Romanian version met their needs better?
You are attempting to commit a common logical fallacy known as "shifting the burden of proof", meaning "I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false." That is not valid reasoning. This is not a courtroom, it is a discussion so we apply the rules of logic, not the rules of law.

Simply utilizing an adaption of the Kalashnikov operating system is no guarantee of reliability. The SLR 106 series is the perfect example of this. Despite the use of the Kalashnikov action, other deficiencies with the gun have produced many well documented unreliable rifles. A quick search for "SVD vs PSL" found this thread from AR15.com, in which the guys who owned both rifles all agreed that the SVD is more accurate, more reliable, lighter, and that the overall quality of the fit and finish was better. Many PSL owners stated that the PSL's barrel gets hot quicker, causing accuracy to suffer dramatically, had magazine issues, and that their PSL's needed "tinkering with" to produce acceptable accuracy. Not a single person claims that the PSL is an improvement over the SVD in any category (except price). http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=64&t=144827

"This is the Romanian version, which improved on the Russian design as far as reliability goes." Your words from your ad.

So, aside from being cheaper to produce (which still does not apply to your statement in your ad regarding reliability), how is the PSL an improvement over the SVD?
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:31 PM   #160
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A quick search for "SVD vs PSL" found this thread from AR15.com, in which the guys who owned both rifles all agreed that the SVD is more accurate, more reliable, lighter, and that the overall quality of the fit and finish was better. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=64&t=144827
You use a big word like fallacy and then point to a discussion on AR15.com as your evidence. By your logic every single 1911 vs. Glock discussion can be settled by providing a link to a thread on AR15.com. I, too, have read a lot of reviews and first hand accounts over the years, and while I've admitted the accuracy reported is usually slightly better with the SVD, it is on average not as drastic as some claim in your thread.

And since you want to dive into the anecdotal realm, there are many more fallacies you should keep in mind. Generally, people hold things in higher regard when they pay more for them. There have been studies where people present gourmet meals at a fancy restaurant, get glowing reviews from the customer about taste, and then reveal that the meal was a microwaved Swanson TV dinner. This can be applied to the SVD, where people believe its better in every way because they paid more for it. Like saying that their SVD barrel doesn't heat as fast as the PSL despite being the same diameter. There is also the matter of which PSLs people are posting about. Are they reviewing kit build rifles that they built in their garage? Are they reviewing kit build rifles that TN Guns put together with used parts and screws instead of rivets? These are all variables that aren't accounted for by anecdotal posts from anonymous people.

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Not a single person claims that the PSL is an improvement over the SVD in any category (except price).
"This is the Romanian version, which improved on the Russian design as far as reliability goes." Your words from your ad.
From your link:
"Never fired a SVD. From my limited experience with a PSL, it was a reliable as any AK, wasn't a tack driver I thought. I would think the SVD would be more accurate. The Russians tested a sniper AK in 7.62x54R and it lost out to the Dragunov because it wasn't accurate enough. Both are generally considered very reliable. Perhaps the PSL might be a bit more reliable because it's a simpler design."

So, while anecdotal and completely unsubstantiated it shows that yes, there is more than a single person out there that has an opinion different from yours.

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Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
So, aside from being cheaper to produce (which still does not apply to your statement in your ad regarding reliability), how is the PSL an improvement over the SVD?
This reminds of a 7 year old asking for an ice cream cone, being told no, and then continuing to ask over and over again hoping for a different answer. I've stated that I believe the AK action of the Romanian Dragunov was an improvement over the Russian rifle as far as reliability goes. I don't need any other reasons. Until you can show me a scientific study, complete with controls, variables, and published findings showing that the Romanian PSL is any less reliable than an SVD, you are not going to "prove" me wrong. Even if you ask the same question over and over again because you didn't like the answer the first time.

I'm not an unreasonable person and if there was sufficient evidence that I am wrong in my opinions I will change them. No one has, as of yet, provided sufficient evidence and there are very few here qualified to do so. Armchair commandos repeating what other armchair commandos said on AR15.com about a rifle they saw once at their local gun shop does not qualify as evidence.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:33 PM   #161
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I do like your point about the SLR 106's, though. They are garbage rifles.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:55 PM   #162
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Just to play along with your game, I presented two bits of anecdotal evidence, one you agreed with and the other you dispute. You claim any 10 experts will agree with you (with no evidence), and dismiss the opinions of every person who owned both rifles (in that thread), who all disagree with your claim.

I will repeat this only because you did not seem to comprehend, "You are attempting to commit a common logical fallacy known as "shifting the burden of proof", meaning "I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false." That is not valid reasoning. This is not a courtroom, it is a discussion so we apply the rules of logic, not the rules of law."

So where are your links to the credible sources from which you draw your well informed opinion?

And you can drop the overtly pompous and condescending tone, it does not aid your presentation.
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:40 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
Just to play along with your game, I presented two bits of anecdotal evidence, one you agreed with and the other you dispute. You claim any 10 experts will agree with you (with no evidence), and dismiss the opinions of every person who owned both rifles (in that thread), who all disagree with your claim.
I did not say that 10 out 10 experts would agree with me. I said 10 out 10 experts would list the Kalashnikov action as being one of the most reliable semiautomatic actions before they list the SVD action. This reading comprehension thing is really killing any hopes I had for a grown up conversation. I did not say that I had asked 10 experts. I did not say that 10 experts came to my house yesterday and we played horse shoes and high-fived each other all day. I did not say that Jesus personally whispered everything I know about these rifles into my ear. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
I will repeat this only because you did not seem to comprehend, "You are attempting to commit a common logical fallacy known as "shifting the burden of proof", meaning "I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false." That is not valid reasoning. This is not a courtroom, it is a discussion so we apply the rules of logic, not the rules of law."

So where are your links to the credible sources from which you draw your well informed opinion?
I can only prove my facts, I cannot prove my opinions. That is why they are opinions and not facts. People can, though, present evidence to support their opinions or to undermine the opinions of others, and I've made my case over the previous 5 pages. People ask why I believe the Romanian PSL is the Romanian version of the Dragunov, and I tell them. Because you don't like those reasons, again, does not make them invalid or my belief a "lie". I don't owe you any other explanation.
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:00 PM   #164
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I can only prove my facts, I cannot prove my opinions. That is why they are opinions and not facts.
Opinions are more valuable when supported by facts. You have not presented any facts to support your reliability claims, and it is obvious that you don't have any.

https://www.google.com/#q=+psl+mag+issues

That's a link to about two dozen threads on PSL mag feeding issues.

Let me save you the trouble of responding, "All those guys are just keyboard commandos, and dozens of PSL rifles with similar problems feeding is not indicative of any type of pattern, my opinion will never change."
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:07 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
Opinions are more valuable when supported by facts. You have not presented any facts to support your reliability claims, and it is obvious that you don't have any.
You are absolutely right. My opinion is based on the fact that the Kalashnikov action is more widely known for reliability than the SVD action. I have no empirical data to back by opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
https://www.google.com/#q=+psl+mag+issues

That's a link to about two dozen threads on PSL mag feeding issues.
There are two things to point out here.

1. What might cause a disproportionate amount of search results to appear in an engine like Google? You are trying to say that there are a much greater number of magazine problems reported with PSL rifles than SVD rifles because more PSL mag troubles show up in a Google search... but you don't take into account the fact that there is probably something like 1000 PSLs in the United States for every SVD. A smaller ratio if you include Tigers and NDMs. Still, the PSLs outnumber the SVDs by a large margin. Obviously one would expect to see many times more issues with PSL rifles because there is a bigger pool that the complaints come from, both with rifles and with magazines. With that said, the magazine issue is not imagined and I'll discuss it below.

2. Do you know why people have had issues with PSL magazines, according to your Google search? How many PSL magazines have you personally owned or handled? I'm not saying that you're not qualified to point out the above issue, just wondering if you're familiar with the issues people mentioned in your search.

I don't know how many I've had, but its more than 100 and less than 1000. PSL magazines and their reliability issues have nothing to do with their design. The magazines themselves are very close imitations of the original SVD magazines. The problem a lot of people have in the States has to do with the boatloads of garbage magazines that were shipped over here. The Romanians stored their PSLs very well, but my educated guess is that they stored the magazines separately from the rifles and did not put nearly as much effort into preparing them for storage or keeping them in any kind of climate controlled location.

Many of the magazines that came over, either because of the storage conditions or because of a poor original application of their finish (or both) developed rust. Some rusted more than others, and shipments have been in a wide range of condition. Some were so rusted through that they were good only for parts and some rusted through to make pin holes in the mag bodies. Many were still usable. Years ago if there was any significant rust then Century would put them to the side and sell them as junk mags for next to nothing. As the PSL stock piles were emptied in Romania, the American importers became less and less picky about the condition of the accessories, and in recent years they took any usable magazine that wasn't obviously too rusted to function. Many of those may have not looked too bad, but had varying amounts of rust on the inside either hampering feeding or preventing it altogether.

There is also the issue of quality control. Many people have disassembled their PSL magazines to find the spring installed backwards. I had one customer that bought some magazines from me and a couple of weeks later I received a package from him. I thought that he was returning a magazine, but when I opened the package I found a note and a mag follower. Apparently the magazine hadn't fed well and when he took it apart he found that two followers had been assembled in the magazine, one on top of the other.

So I realize there is an issue with some of the magazines available in the States. I don't believe this is a design issue, and I don't believe it is as prevalent overseas in military use when properly maintained magazines are used.
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Old 04-23-2014, 08:22 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apache View Post
I like how you use the word "blatantly" like I'm doing something wrong.
I hope you like the way I use it too...

Asspache comes here to blatantly be a dickhead with ears.
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:14 AM   #167
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Wow, can a moderator close this thread? Nothing will ever be accomplished here. At least move it to a more general forum for flame wars like the basement or something. I am a newbie as far as a PSL goes and I come here for knowledge and ideas. It's like BHA almost with this thread before Jerry got banned!
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:15 AM   #168
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Um,
Had to post one more time for the big 100! Yay!
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:40 AM   #169
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The never ending story.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:08 PM   #170
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If Apache were a lawyer, I'd want him to be my lawyer, lol.
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:10 PM   #171
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:46 PM   #172
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And asspache is a legend in his own mind.
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:39 AM   #173
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Can I put a 5rd PSL/Dragunov hunting magazine on layaway so that I don't miss the one in a lifetime opportunity to own one?
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:18 PM   #174
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LOL, just searched for a pic of 7n1 to show a friend the label ... Apache's page came up ... the joke is his spam can of "Russian" is Bulgarian, DUH!
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:47 PM   #175
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NECRO THREAD!!!!!!
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Кто не скачет- это Вооружённые Силы Новороссии
А кто скачет тот полный пидарас которого наебали свои-же лидеры.

BAN SIG 2017

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