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Old 06-12-2017, 01:49 PM   #1
tracerbob
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Default Full Auto reciever on Gunbroker

I was browsing gunbroker this weekend and happened upon an ad from a seller in Poland selling a really nice Full Auto receiver. He had carefully removed the front/rear trunnions and the trigger guard so it could easily be reassembled. My question is, is this thing legal to own?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/654560...iNHyejI4.email
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:54 PM   #2
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Hell no

In the EU they have different rules on Full auto parts then we do ..Why you could buy glock 18 full auto parts at some gun stores etc

You see it a lot in German too a lot of complet M16 lower and G36 ..I think to them it is just paper weights as you legally cant build anything from it I think

Now it if was demilled properly maybe then it would be ok
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:08 PM   #3
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So, at what point does it show "intent" just to own it? Having a parts kit with the usual included FA trigger group under the same roof?
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:12 PM   #4
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I guess what I'm trying to say is it illegal to have this in ones possession with no intention of building something from it?
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:54 PM   #5
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In this country, possession is a ticket to club fed.

As noted, in Europe, they have different definitions of "machine gun" and whatnot, and such receivers are legal there.
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Old 06-12-2017, 05:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerbob View Post
I guess what I'm trying to say is it illegal to have this in ones possession with no intention of building something from it?
In the US, the legal definition of "Machine Gun" in the Federal law includes the receiver by itself. So no, a non-FFL owning/possessing a bare MG receiver is not legal no matter your intentions unless said receiver was properly registered with ATF prior to may 1986. The one in question obviously was not so registered.

Europe usually restricts the "pressure containing" parts such as bbls and bolts, so when one sees a "Deactivated Weapon" over there the receiver is usually intact, it is the bbl and bolt that is butchered. Here they torch the receiver to make it legal.
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Old 06-12-2017, 11:43 PM   #7
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Yup thats no-bueno in the states...

Hope it wasnt a US buyer...

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Old 06-13-2017, 10:42 AM   #8
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Me too. Thanks for all the answers to my question. I hope an ATF agent does not deliver it to the new owner.
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Old 06-13-2017, 12:43 PM   #9
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It's sold. Some idiot paid $300 for a 1mm thick U shaped piece of metal. I'll never understand the stupidity of gun nuts.
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:31 PM   #10
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Could it be used to make a post sample?

Maybe a dealer with a Polish kit wanted a matching receiver?
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:54 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Asmodeus View Post
Could it be used to make a post sample?

Maybe a dealer with a Polish kit wanted a matching receiver?
Sure, if he managed to get the import paperwork approved...
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerbob View Post
So, at what point does it show "intent" just to own it? Having a parts kit with the usual included FA trigger group under the same roof?
Those are really two different situations. Most people are terrified of the "constructive possession" which is highly exaggerated. There was a FL case where a guy was arrested selling a pistol along with a stock that could fit it. Sounded like he was totally str8. He had explained the Form 1 process to the "buyer" and even offered to help him file it. Local S.O. tried to turn the case over to BATFE who asked whether or not the stock was attached. When they found out it wasn't, they declined the case. Oddly, the locals ran with it. My point - if THAT is not "constructive possession" (according to the feds), I really doubt anyone is worried about some FA FCG's left over from an honest build.

ON THE OTHER HAND - that receiver is not a part that could be used to make a machine gun, it actually IS a machine gun (per BATFE). For example - if you took a semi auto AKM and did nothing to it other than drill a hole where the sear axis pin goes, it would BE a "machine gun" even though it was incapable of FA fire. If I am not mistaken, simply slotting a rail has the same effect - any AKM with a slotted rail (even WITHOUT the Y drilled) is a "machine gun"

On a side note - $300 for a stamped!?!?! Most of us have a die, press, etc. If the law was not a concern (for me it IS), we could make that for 20-30 bux (of course my spot welds don't look that nice)
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by 2Munkeez View Post
If I am not mistaken, simply slotting a rail has the same effect - any AKM with a slotted rail (even WITHOUT the Y drilled) is a "machine gun"
Do you have any BATFE verification for this statement ? I was under the assumption that the hole for the safety sear is the only thing that defines an AK as a machine gun according to the BATFE.
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Old 06-17-2017, 05:53 PM   #14
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Do you have any BATFE verification for this statement ? I was under the assumption that the hole for the safety sear is the only thing that defines an AK as a machine gun according to the BATFE.
Nope, that's why I added that little (unless I'm mistaken) because I have never confirmed that. I did hear it from someone I consider credible, on the subject, though. You've gotten me curious enough, now, where I'll end up looking into it. It was one of those things that had a little enough impact, on me, that I was ok just assuming they were correct. Now, had I found a great deal on a receiver that was completely intact other than a slot in the rail.... I'd have look into it further
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:10 AM   #15
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BATFE is often ambiguous, many people think purposely so. Let me know if you find anything. I'm looking too and will post what I find.

A slotted rail by itself can in no way make the rifle fire automatically, but I realize BATFE rules often make no sense.
Maybe it has to do with the intent thing, which is BS imo, either you have a machine gun or you don't.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:15 AM   #16
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BATFE is often ambiguous, many people think purposely so. Let me know if you find anything. I'm looking too and will post what I find.
The problem is that folks take letters meant for individuals as "the law".

These letter's "guidance" has been shown to be as erratic as Ted Kennedy's car after a Democratic fundraiser.

These letters are not "the law", and certainly not meant to be shown to the public as "the law".


Folks also take single event "guidance" as "the law" ( the "slotted rail" thing has only been associated with one entity, that I know of )


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Old 06-18-2017, 01:50 AM   #17
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The problem is that folks take letters meant for individuals as "the law".

These letter's "guidance" has been shown to be as erratic as Ted Kennedy's car after a Democratic fundraiser.

These letters are not "the law", and certainly not meant to be shown to the public as "the law".


Folks also take single event "guidance" as "the law" ( the "slotted rail" thing has only been associated with one entity, that I know of )


People are their their own worst enemies.
Nails, is there an ATF resource that lists exactly what parts make an AK or other firearms a machine gun ?
My GoogleFu is weak.....I can't even find anything on the ATF site that says anything about the safety sear hole let alone a slotted rail.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:37 PM   #18
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People write letters to ATF and ask "What are the FA 'features' I can't have on my semi auto build". The usual answer is no sear hole and no slotted rail when folks post the replies. However, several imported AKs have come in, with ATF approval, with slotted rails.

So the "third hole" is a definite no-no, the slotted rail may just be what the particular agent writing that particular letter believes. OTOH, a semi needs neither feature, so why take chances?
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:15 AM   #19
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So the "third hole" is a definite no-no, the slotted rail may just be what the particular agent writing that particular letter believes. OTOH, a semi needs neither feature, so why take chances?
I agree, no reason to take chances, but on the other hand with the possible penalties one can incur you'd think there would be very clear, concise language about what is allowed and what isn't. If there is, I can't find it.
The 3rd hole is a no no without question, but there are always questions about slotted rails or just owning f/a triggers and it seems you can ask 3 different agents the same question and get 3 different answers.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:30 AM   #20
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I agree, no reason to take chances, but on the other hand with the possible penalties one can incur you'd think there would be very clear, concise language about what is allowed and what isn't. If there is, I can't find it.
The 3rd hole is a no no without question, but there are always questions about slotted rails or just owning f/a triggers and it seems you can ask 3 different agents the same question and get 3 different answers.
The last thing anybody in federal LE wants is a clear concise statement of what is legal and what isn't. It allows them to charge folks with what they want to without having to explain why they said it was legal to do so.

Take "dealing without an FFL". If they wrote on their website "sell more than 5 guns a year and you need a license", then one could use that as a defense when you get busted for selling 4. The actual language of the reg states you spend time and effort devoted to the activity with the intent of making money, IOW a business, you need an FFL. The ambiguity allows them to charge the Hell's Angel who sells two guns to the informant with dealing while the guy selling off a few guns at a gunshow to pay some unexpected bills gets left alone.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerbob View Post
So, at what point does it show "intent" just to own it? Having a parts kit with the usual included FA trigger group under the same roof?
Federal law specifically mentions receivers of what it defines as machine guns.
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So, can I assume that WTF is not one of the Marketplace headings like WTS, WTB, or WTT?
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:15 PM   #22
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Sure, if he managed to get the import paperwork approved...
My point was, there could be a totally legitimate and legal reason for someone buying it, so we should proceed as such until it's determined otherwise...
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:49 PM   #23
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If an American bought it without any paperwork, he could have the seller zip it in half with a saw before having it shipped to him. Then the scrap metal would be welded into a semi automatic reciever.
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So, can I assume that WTF is not one of the Marketplace headings like WTS, WTB, or WTT?
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:36 PM   #24
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Federal law specifically mentions receivers of what it defines as machine guns.
Including sometimes, shoelaces!
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Old 07-03-2017, 10:16 AM   #25
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Including sometimes, shoelaces!
The ATF certainly likes to twist the actual law in their favor, that much is clear!
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So, can I assume that WTF is not one of the Marketplace headings like WTS, WTB, or WTT?
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by tracerbob View Post
I was browsing gunbroker this weekend and happened upon an ad from a seller in Poland selling a really nice Full Auto receiver. He had carefully removed the front/rear trunnions and the trigger guard so it could easily be reassembled. My question is, is this thing legal to own?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/654560...iNHyejI4.email
Unfortunately illegal since the 1968 amnesty.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:07 AM   #27
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If it has a 3rd pin hole, RUN!

Quite a few MAK90's have had it on the receiver in recent years posted for sale on GunBroker, then we would get a thread here, and then the seller would removes it (and likely sell it locally or just hold onto it, being would suck to be in that position).

Especially if the original owner, being IIRC, even though semi auto when imported and originally sold legally that way, you can get burned badly buying/owning anything with a receiver like that, per BATF guidelines. Either was not a rule back then, or some just slipped by before info was as readily accessible as it is now (via the world wide web).

That's what I've taken from threads/posts in the past atleast, but in short to answer your question, if it has a 3rd pin hole, it is considered "Contraband" and apparently you can get the same charge as if owning an actual machine gun!

I would hope whomever in charge would be understanding, but after hearing of the old Tec22's having a "Runaway issue" and going into burst/FA mode when an internal part broke, I remember reading how a guy was at a range and it happened and he got charged as if he had modded the pistol, not the case, just a POS pistol. Their are some other similar stories of the ATF or local LEO showing no mercy in similar cases I've read on forums over the years. I'm sure some cases were indeed some guys accidentally hitting a homemade fun switch at the range but those old Tec22's seemed to have a legit runaway issue from what I remember reading.

Last edited by nighttrainnc; 07-16-2017 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:47 AM   #28
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legal to buy this piece ?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/662278893
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:42 AM   #29
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legal to buy this piece ?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/662278893
Honestly, nothing arms related should be coming in the mail without a form but US Customs aren't normally assholes if it's some novelty stuff like a couple of mags or furniture, but when you go buying silencer parts or an F/A receiver and they are X-Rayed.... You are likely asking to be put on a list, if not get a visit (after it is seized ofcourse).

Unless that odd part isn't recognizable to them, being I had no clue what it was u til the description but still, I would avoid that if I were you. Get some cool grips or a couple of cheaper mags or something, but avoid paying decent money to likely get arrested!
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I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. About every 3rd part on an Arsenal is refinished mil-surp parts taken off an M4.

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Old 07-16-2017, 12:32 PM   #30
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legal to buy this piece ?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/662278893
Not in the USA. Fed law defines "silencer" to include the individual parts that make one up. Intact baffles have the same legal status as a complete working suppressor. Imported suppressors (and parts) are totally forbidden to own by anyone other than LE or an SOT, so you couldn't even pay the tax on it and own it. The only legal ones I have seen were "cutaways", suppressors that have a large section milled away down the side so they no longer function.
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:12 PM   #31
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When go to other countries see suppressors available, I often wonder what sort of desk lamps they might make.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:22 PM   #32
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Lol, receiver crust
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:26 AM   #33
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Lol, receiver crust
I too thought it quite witty
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Old 07-30-2017, 05:15 PM   #34
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How much you wanna bet that some idiot in the USA bought this...
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