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Old 08-02-2017, 03:46 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by praxidike View Post
Well I didnt answer anything. Im not sure, so I was asking for confirmation. I do not own any NFA items, and I've only heard people mention suppressors and SBR being prohibited. I have no clue whether states generally have an explicit NFA ban that includes any and every NFA item, or if they generally single out certain types...
Let me outline it for ya:

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Originally Posted by praxidike View Post
The tax stamp for the AOW configuration is $5 correct? If I went that route, would a AOW Shockwave, for example, be prohibited in states that ban SBR, suppressors, and other NFA item?
Got it?

AOW is a taxed item under NFA.

It would be considered an"other NFA item".
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Old 08-02-2017, 03:50 PM   #212
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The reason we are flocking to "firearms" like this is the lack of required NFA paperwork and ease of ownership ( and intrastate travel for most states)

Form 4s and 1s make it harder to travel and own "right now"
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Old 08-02-2017, 04:18 PM   #213
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I finished my form 1 for my 870 TAC-14 and plan to send it in tomorrow. I just check and it looks like approvals are taking 1 year! That's nuts. My last stamp was for a suppressor that got approved in December 2016 after 6 months. Given the ridiculous wait, I am thinking real hard about not doing it.
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Old 08-02-2017, 10:34 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by praxidike View Post
I just watched a couple of YouTube comparison vids that say the 870 needs the $40 +/- adapter??

OPSOL adapter for the Mossberg:

http://www.opsolmini-clip.com/

I searched but cannot find an adapter marketed for the 870.

The Mossberg uses a "skeletonized" lifter, as I understand it the Aguilla shells slide back until the front of the shell clears the solid part at the front of the lifter then the nose of the shell falls into the opening in the lifter, preventing it from moving forward when the gun is cycled. The OPSOL adapter fills up the rear of the opening, keeping the shell forward enough that it stays on top of the solid part of the lifter. You have to remove it to fire full size shells again, but it just slides in and out so a few seconds at most.

The Remington uses a solid lifter so it doesn't have this issue. From what I understand both guns need a rather vigorous pumping action or they can jam. And of course individual guns vary, one might swallow them all day long while another jams on every one.
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Old 08-02-2017, 11:05 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
OPSOL adapter for the Mossberg:

http://www.opsolmini-clip.com/

I searched but cannot find an adapter marketed for the 870.

The Mossberg uses a "skeletonized" lifter, as I understand it the Aguilla shells slide back until the front of the shell clears the solid part at the front of the lifter then the nose of the shell falls into the opening in the lifter, preventing it from moving forward when the gun is cycled. The OPSOL adapter fills up the rear of the opening, keeping the shell forward enough that it stays on top of the solid part of the lifter. You have to remove it to fire full size shells again, but it just slides in and out so a few seconds at most.

The Remington uses a solid lifter so it doesn't have this issue. From what I understand both guns need a rather vigorous pumping action or they can jam. And of course individual guns vary, one might swallow them all day long while another jams on every one.
This is all correct. I don't have an 870 but I can speak from experience with my Mossberg 500 and shockwave that they do not reliably function the minishells without the opsol adapter. Without the adapter I can occasionally get it to cycle one in there, but like I said not reliably. With the adapter, no issues, cycles the minishells just fine.
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Old 08-02-2017, 11:18 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by praxidike View Post
The tax stamp for the AOW configuration is $5 correct? If I went that route, would a AOW Shockwave, for example, be prohibited in states that ban SBR, suppressors, and other NFA item?
The $5 tax stamp is for purchasing an AOW configured from the manufacturer. The Mossberg Cruiser shorty would be $5, while throwing a standard PG on a Shockwave you already own would be $200. It is $200 to make your own AOW. At that point, just make an SBR/SBS, have the option to slap a stock on, and call it a day.
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:48 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Let me outline it for ya:

Got it?

AOW is a taxed item under NFA.

It would be considered an"other NFA item".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Sheepdog View Post
The $5 tax stamp is for purchasing an AOW configured from the manufacturer. The Mossberg Cruiser shorty would be $5, while throwing a standard PG on a Shockwave you already own would be $200. It is $200 to make your own AOW. At that point, just make an SBR/SBS, have the option to slap a stock on, and call it a day.
Got it. Thanks
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:28 PM   #218
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The tube would have to be permanently attached to the pistol grip adapter, otherwise you could "quickly" unscrew it and the remaining pistol grip adapter would be useable as is and be under the 26.1 inches required under the law.

I would screw it in, set the castle nut and pin and blind weld it it place.
By that logic you can "quicky" unscrew the bird's head grip that makes the OAL above 26 inches.

Why are you advocating two different standards?

Does the Black Aces Tactical braced shotgun also have a welded M4 tube?

http://www.blackacestactical.com/_p/...s-tactical-dtr

I get no one wants to violate federal law here let alone advocate it so people are extra jumpy, but that shit makes zero sense.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:32 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by codifier View Post
By that logic you can "quicky" unscrew the bird's head grip that makes the OAL above 26 inches.

Why are you advocating two different standards?
We've covered this in a previous post in this thread.

To reiterate ( $DEITY forbid you actually have to read stuff ): If you remove the grip, you no longer have a functioning firearm.

Did you know that removing the grip from a Mossberg Cruiser also reduces its overall length to below 26"?
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:43 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by codifier View Post
By that logic you can "quicky" unscrew the bird's head grip that makes the OAL above 26 inches.

Why are you advocating two different standards?

Does the Black Aces Tactical braced shotgun also have a welded M4 tube?

http://www.blackacestactical.com/_p/...s-tactical-dtr

I get no one wants to violate federal law here let alone advocate it so people are extra jumpy, but that shit makes zero sense.
We are talking the BATFE here...

The people who ruled a shoe lace was a machine gun when tied in a particular manner.

I also have my suspicions that the Black Ack's tube is attached beyond the castle nut.

But it really comes down to what you want to do with your firearm.
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:56 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
We've covered this in a previous post in this thread.

To reiterate ( $DEITY forbid you actually have to read stuff ): If you remove the grip, you no longer have a functioning firearm.

Did you know that removing the grip from a Mossberg Cruiser also reduces its overall length to below 26"?
I did fucking read stuff. You're just having a hell of a time accepting your logic makes zero sense.

Removing the grip doesn't make a firearm nonfunctional. Where the hell are you getting this shit? Can you load the chamber, pull the trigger, then said firearm goes boom? Then it's fucking functional whether theres a grip on it or not.

I seriously am curious where you are pulling up this functionality crap and where any law or court precedence dictates where one grips determines functionality. Pulling the trigger and getting a boom = functional. Otherwise I guess I can make my AKs full auto if it's "non-functional" by taking the grip off?

Christ.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:04 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by David Teague View Post
We are talking the BATFE here...

The people who ruled a shoe lace was a machine gun when tied in a particular manner.

I also have my suspicions that the Black Ack's tube is attached beyond the castle nut.

But it really comes down to what you want to do with your firearm.
The BATFE can blow it out their ass. I am not sure where this subservient attitude comes from in the gun community towards the ATF.

They're part of the executive branch, they can only arrest and much of their bullshit comes from fear of arrest which the ATF gladly accepts everyone does because it means they can hurl down edicts without ever having to take anyone to court.

That's how we get absurd opinion letters from them: because no one calls them on their bullshit which they count on because a court will set precedence.

I get it. No one wants to be the test case, certainly not me. But the ATF doesn't dictate the law, and nothing about the law states anything about permanently attaching a tube adapter.

Think about it. You have two AR15s one pistol, one rifle. With two pops of a pin or buffer wrench you can instantly turn one into an SBR. Yet no one wrings their hands saying the ATF will state its "too easy" to convert it to an illegal configuration.

You may be right about the Black Aces being affixed; I couldn't find anything on it. Personally until I get some clarification I am not going this route, but the whole permanently affixed thing is absurd.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:06 AM   #223
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I did fucking read stuff. You're just having a hell of a time accepting your logic makes zero sense.

Removing the grip doesn't make a firearm nonfunctional. Where the hell are you getting this shit? Can you load the chamber, pull the trigger, then said firearm goes boom? Then it's fucking functional whether theres a grip on it or not.

I seriously am curious where you are pulling up this functionality crap and where any law or court precedence dictates where one grips determines functionality. Pulling the trigger and getting a boom = functional. Otherwise I guess I can make my AKs full auto if it's "non-functional" by taking the grip off?

Christ.
Is the firearm designed to be fired without a grip?

if so, then we all should be filling out NFA paperwork because all shotguns with 18" barrels are sub-26" when the stocks are off.
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:03 AM   #224
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The BATFE can blow it out their ass. I am not sure where this subservient attitude comes from in the gun community towards the ATF.
From the fact they do arrest and prosecute. I had a family member get crossways with the BATFE and it only cost him $80k in legal fees, his $100,000 firearm collection, his civil rights and his clean record as now he is a Federal felon for the rest of his life.

They're part of the executive branch, they can only arrest and much of their bullshit comes from fear of arrest which the ATF gladly accepts everyone does because it means they can hurl down edicts without ever having to take anyone to court.

If you don't think they take people to court and send them to the gray bar hotel, you are sadly mistaken.

That's how we get absurd opinion letters from them: because no one calls them on their bullshit which they count on because a court will set precedence.

I get it. No one wants to be the test case, certainly not me. But the ATF doesn't dictate the law, and nothing about the law states anything about permanently attaching a tube adapter.

Think about it. You have two AR15s one pistol, one rifle. With two pops of a pin or buffer wrench you can instantly turn one into an SBR. Yet no one wrings their hands saying the ATF will state its "too easy" to convert it to an illegal configuration.

I guess you missed the court trial that settled that one. Hint, Google Thompson Center Contender carbine

You may be right about the Black Aces being affixed; I couldn't find anything on it. Personally until I get some clarification I am not going this route, but the whole permanently affixed thing is absurd.

Not saying it's not, but I'm basing it off of prior letters and rulings
See above.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:07 PM   #225
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Think about it. You have two AR15s one pistol, one rifle. With two pops of a pin or buffer wrench you can instantly turn one into an SBR. Yet no one wrings their hands saying the ATF will state its "too easy" to convert it to an illegal configuration.

I guess you missed the court trial that settled that one. Hint, Google Thompson Center Contender carbine
Can you provide a link?

Google search of exactly "Thompson Center Contender carbine" only leads to sites that tell you about that firearm. Nothing about a case or court ruling. I don't really know what we're discussing here and I'm curious.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:13 PM   #226
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Can you provide a link?

Google search of exactly "Thompson Center Contender carbine" only leads to sites that tell you about that firearm. Nothing about a case or court ruling. I don't really know what we're discussing here and I'm curious.
Sweet $DEITY

Really, dude?

Putting this into Google: United States vs Thompson, Center gets you nothing but the court case, the outcome and related for the first page of results.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:21 PM   #227
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One factor I prefer on the Mossberg is the thumb safety over the Remington's cross bolt.
Same. I've shot an 870 and a 500 in 3-gun. I prefer the top safety of the Mossbergs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barth View Post
1) 5+1 vs 4+1.
2) Ambi thumb safety.
3) OEM front strap to keep you hand from disappearing down range.
4) Last but not least, if you add 590A1 parts (I did), the Shockwave is milspec .
Both shotguns are in stock at my lgs. I got to handle and compare both side by side. Length and function are basically the same, except the safety. The 5+1 of the Shockwave is nice , having the extra capacity from the factory.

As an aside, I've also fired a Keltec KSG at the range (friend's gun). Those get bad reps all the time. But I still have all my fingers and it shot just fine...
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:23 PM   #228
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Sweet $DEITY

Really, dude?

Putting this into Google: United States vs Thompson, Center gets you nothing but the court case, the outcome and related for the first page of results.
Thanks, Dude. I'll read up on it.

I followed David's exact wording if you noticed.
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Old 08-07-2017, 10:04 PM   #229
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Thanks, Dude. I'll read up on it.

I followed David's exact wording if you noticed.
Sorry, my wording with "lawsuit " brings it right up.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:10 PM   #230
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Just found this thread and read through all of the pages. I'm not sure why this shotgun is such a big deal? Other than being able to sidestep the SBS thing, why the obsession with this configuration?
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:24 PM   #231
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Just found this thread and read through all of the pages. I'm not sure why this shotgun is such a big deal? Other than being able to sidestep the SBS thing, why the obsession with this configuration?
I'd not call it an "obsession", since both Mossberg and Remington are mass-marketing them now.

Back in 2012, it might have been "an obsession".
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Old 09-16-2017, 09:36 AM   #232
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https://youtu.be/E5oRlflnCuU

12 pellet, 3" magnum Federal Flight control buckshot shot through a shockwave filmed in slow motion. Rather brisk recoil.
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Old 09-16-2017, 10:13 AM   #233
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I purchased a Mossberg Shockwave, I then installed the Mesa Tactical stock adapter and a Shockwave buffer tube and Shockwave Blade Arm Brace. I also installed the GGG AZ Side saddle made specifically for the Shockwave, the GGG AZ light rail and Inforce WML, and the XS Big Do tritium front sight.

With all these modifications, the Shockwave is still in the definition of a "firearms" by ATF. It remains over 26.5 inches in length, and I have not installed a should stock on the firearm. It is now a very usable "firearm".

Here in the free state of Nevada, they are completely legal.
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Old 09-16-2017, 11:31 AM   #234
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Does yours shoot high?
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Old 09-17-2017, 03:37 PM   #235
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Does yours shoot high?
After I installed the XS Big Dot tritium front sight, it's patterning point of aim, point of impact.
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:20 PM   #236
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I purchased a Mossberg Shockwave, I then installed the Mesa Tactical stock adapter and a Shockwave buffer tube and Shockwave Blade Arm Brace. I also installed the GGG AZ Side saddle made specifically for the Shockwave, the GGG AZ light rail and Inforce WML, and the XS Big Do tritium front sight.

With all these modifications, the Shockwave is still in the definition of a "firearms" by ATF. It remains over 26.5 inches in length, and I have not installed a should stock on the firearm. It is now a very usable "firearm".

Here in the free state of Nevada, they are completely legal.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread and got a bunch of mod comments that the brace tube needed to be "permanently attached" because somehow replacing the bird head grip with the longer tube and adapter now makes it an SBR.

Anyway, can you post pics? I very much want to see how it looks.
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Old 09-17-2017, 06:56 PM   #237
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I mentioned this earlier in the thread and got a bunch of mod comments that the brace tube needed to be "permanently attached" because somehow replacing the bird head grip with the longer tube and adapter now makes it an SBR.

Anyway, can you post pics? I very much want to see how it looks.
Well obviously those people commenting haven't seen the Black Aces Tactical Mossberg based "firearm", or the Fostec Origin, and Sirarms Zver, both AK based shotgun "firearms" that are approved by ATF. The Black Aces Tactical "firearms" uses a folding pistol grip and buffer tube with the Sig Tac-15 Arm Brace installed. I can tell you for certain that is attached to the receiver with a bolt, nothing more. The buffer tube is removable if you were so inclined to break the law. It is NOT welded or pinned in place.

Had I placed a stock on the buffer tube I would be creating and SBS, but it's a KAK Industries Shockwave ARM BRACE and buffer tube. The birds head grip is not permanently attached either. It's the overall length that matters. That's why if you put a pistol grip from say a Mossberg Persuader on it, it would not be OVER 26.5 inches in length, and that would be creating an unregistered SBS.

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Old 09-17-2017, 07:07 PM   #238
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You guys can do what ever you want.

The issue is that you can unscrew the AR pistol tube and have a NFA weapon due to length as it becomes an AOW as it's now under 26.1 inches.

I take the stance that you have to permanently attach the tube to stay in within the letter of the law.

And yes, I know of the Black Aces firearm. Unlike what you just did, the Company in question has a letter giving them permission to build and sell it that way.

Have you both missed the thread on the woman facing charges for having an illegal SBR? It's a stock 10/22 with the stock removed....
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:36 PM   #239
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You guys can do what ever you want.

The issue is that you can unscrew the AR pistol tube and have a NFA weapon due to length as it becomes an AOW as it's now under 26.1 inches.

I take the stance that you have to permanently attach the tube to stay in within the letter of the law.

And yes, I know of the Black Aces firearm. Unlike what you just did, the Company in question has a letter giving them permission to build and sell it that way.

Have you both missed the thread on the woman facing charges for having an illegal SBR? It's a stock 10/22 with the stock removed....
Of course if I unscrewed the buffer tube and left the pistol grip only on it I would be creating an unregistered AOW. Of course if I take a regular shotgun with an 18 inch barrel and saw it off, I've done the same thing. The barrel isn't "permanently" attach to a shotgun, so IF I cut it down I've broken the law.

I own a Remington 870 based Scattergun Tenologies witness protection registered AOW with the original wooden birdshead grip. The same argument could be raised if I put a stock on it, I would be violating the law, except for the fact I have no INTENT to do so. You can't arrest anyone because the "could" do something that would make something illegal.

If I were to weld the buffer tube, what would that stop? I could simply remove the adapter holding the buffer tube, and replace it with a pistol grip, again violating the law. Your argument is frankly silly, because you fail to factor in "intent". It could be said that I could saw off the barrel and make an illegal firearm, just as it could be said if I took the buffer tube off. I have NO intention of doing so, and under the ATF regulations, as long as the arm brace and tube are longer than 26.5 inches, it is legal.

And the woman in Fresno California arrested for the stock-less 10/22 is a perfect example of intent. She removed the stock and was carrying the firearm when she was encountered by the police. She also had an illegal set of composite knuckles (Illegal in California under i believe section 12020 of the Penal Code) and narcotics. She had the INTENT to carry and illegally modify the firearm as she tried to hide it when she was contacted by the police.

Last edited by gunhand; 09-17-2017 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:53 PM   #240
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Of course if I unscrewed the buffer tube and left the pistol grip only on it I would be creating an unregistered AOW. Of course if I take a regular shotgun with an 18 inch barrel and saw it off, I've done the same thing. The barrel isn't "permanently" attach to a shotgun, so IF I cut it down I've broken the law.

If I were to weld the buffer tube, what would that stop? I could simply remove the adapter holding the buffer tube, and replace it with a pistol grip, again violating the law. Your argument is frankly silly, because you fail to factor in "intent". It could be said that I could saw off the barrel and make an illegal firearm, just as it could be said if I took the buffer tube off. I have NO intention of doing so, and under the ATF regulations, as long as the arm brace and tube are longer than 26.5 inches, it is legal.

And the woman in Fresno California arrested for the stock-less 10/22 is a perfect example of intent. She removed the stock and was carrying the firearm when she was encountered by the police. She also had an illegal set of composite knuckles (Illegal in California under i believe section 12020 of the Penal Code) and narcotics. She had the INTENT to carry and illegally modify the firearm as she tried to hide it when she was contacted by the police.
Like I said, you are free to do whatever you wish.

If I ever do the same, based off of prior BATF actions in the field both in the press and what I've seen first hand, I will permanently attach the tube to stay in within the letter of the law and show LAWFUL INTENT on my part.
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Old 09-17-2017, 10:37 PM   #241
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Like I said, you are free to do whatever you wish.

If I ever do the same, based off of prior BATF actions in the field both in the press and what I've seen first hand, I will permanently attach the tube to stay in within the letter of the law and show LAWFUL INTENT on my part.
Awesome go forth and attach away!!
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:25 AM   #242
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Of course if I unscrewed the buffer tube and left the pistol grip only on it I would be creating an unregistered AOW. Of course if I take a regular shotgun with an 18 inch barrel and saw it off, I've done the same thing. The barrel isn't "permanently" attach to a shotgun, so IF I cut it down I've broken the law.
Two things wrong with this . .

1) How do you think the revenuers measure for OAL with regard to muzzle devices? They try to unscrew them. If they unscrew and the gun comes up short, someone's getting hit with a felony.

This is why the "permanent attachment" was suggested.

2) If you take the barrel of a firearm off, it no longer meets the definition of a "firearm" ( it will not expel a projectile )

"Oh but Nalioth . . . "

Put another way: If the revenuers were able to measure the OAL of a gun ( for the purposes of administering a felony ) where the gun is missing a barrel , what would be stopping them from charging everyone who has a stripped receiver with "untaxed AOW or SBR or SBS"?




. . . but like DT says - do as you wish.
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Old 09-18-2017, 10:30 AM   #243
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Two things wrong with this . .

1) How do you think the revenuers measure for OAL with regard to muzzle devices? They try to unscrew them. If they unscrew and the gun comes up short, someone's getting hit with a felony.

This is why the "permanent attachment" was suggested.

2) If you take the barrel of a firearm off, it no longer meets the definition of a "firearm" ( it will not expel a projectile )

"Oh but Nalioth . . . "

Put another way: If the revenuers were able to measure the OAL of a gun ( for the purposes of administering a felony ) where the gun is missing a barrel , what would be stopping them from charging everyone who has a stripped receiver with "untaxed AOW or SBR or SBS"?




. . . but like DT says - do as you wish.
Do you really not understand what I was saying?? I was NOT talking about removing the barrel, I was talking about illegally cutting it below legal length. My point was that if I took a standard Mossberg 590 shotgun, and cut the barrel shorter than 18 inches, I would be committing a felony. AND the fact that the barrel on a 590 is NOT designed to be permanently attached!!

The point that both DT and you are missing is the fact that anyone could "possibly" modify a weapon to make it illegal. Just because you could possibly do that that, does NOT make it a crime! Yes, I could "possibly" remove the buffer tube, and subsequently make the firearm illegal, but that would completely defeat what I'm trying to do. I didn't install the mods to my Shockwave just so I could remove part of them! Like it or not, my modifications are within the law.
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Old Yesterday, 09:54 PM   #244
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Got my Shockwave tonight, took off the end cap and it was full of rusty oil. I think it was from when they tapped it for the sling attachment
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