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Old 06-30-2018, 02:23 AM   #1
burninglegs
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Default Primary Arms 1-6x Raptor

I have the regular 1-6x ACSS SFP scope and I love it. But this Raptor might need to be added to my optics collection at some point. Seems almost perfect.

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Old 06-30-2018, 05:47 PM   #2
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I have the ACSS 1-6 and the 1-8 SFP scopes and I like them a lot.

I haven't looked through the Raptor irl but the pics I've seen make the reticle look small and difficult to pick up at low power settings if the illumination is not on. Since I don't use illumination in the daytime almost ever this seems like an issue for me.

So I think I'll stick with the sfp versions.
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:22 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole Dedhand View Post
I have the ACSS 1-6 and the 1-8 SFP scopes and I like them a lot.

I haven't looked through the Raptor irl but the pics I've seen make the reticle look small and difficult to pick up at low power settings if the illumination is not on. Since I don't use illumination in the daytime almost ever this seems like an issue for me.

So I think I'll stick with the sfp versions.
The reticle gets bigger as you crank up the magnification. Hence FFP
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole Dedhand View Post
I have the ACSS 1-6 and the 1-8 SFP scopes and I like them a lot.

I haven't looked through the Raptor irl but the pics I've seen make the reticle look small and difficult to pick up at low power settings if the illumination is not on. Since I don't use illumination in the daytime almost ever this seems like an issue for me.

So I think I'll stick with the sfp versions.
At low power you are using it as a red dot anyways with the ACSS reticle. As your target is further out, you would increase the magnification and the reticle would get larger.
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Old 07-06-2018, 09:57 PM   #5
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I bought a Raptor last month and for someone that was looking for kind of a “do everything” optic, it’s exceeded my expectations in every way. I was a little bit concerned about the weight, but honestly it seems to balance my gun out. Bc of the eye relief, the optic is a little slower for me in 1X up close than a micro dot, but I’m sure I’ll get used to it.
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:50 AM   #6
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Can anyone compare the Raptor at 3x magnification with 3x prism? I almost hit the button on 3x gen2 (7.62x39) but this Raptor looks very interesting. I know fixed vs variable, but at 3x they should be comparable
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Old 08-03-2018, 02:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wind-catcher View Post
Can anyone compare the Raptor at 3x magnification with 3x prism? I almost hit the button on 3x gen2 (7.62x39) but this Raptor looks very interesting. I know fixed vs variable, but at 3x they should be comparable
Being comparable has nothing to do the magnification. The Raptor is going to have more lenses in it since it's a variable. If the lenses are of equal quality then a fixed power will always be clearer than a variable due to you looking through less lenses.
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wind-catcher View Post
Can anyone compare the Raptor at 3x magnification with 3x prism? I almost hit the button on 3x gen2 (7.62x39) but this Raptor looks very interesting. I know fixed vs variable, but at 3x they should be comparable
On 3x the fixed optic will likely be superior becuse it should be clearer with a bigger field of view
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by burninglegs View Post
At low power you are using it as a red dot anyways with the ACSS reticle. As your target is further out, you would increase the magnification and the reticle would get larger.
I think what he is referring to is that on 1x you will have to use illumination or else the small "dot" will be hard to see when its black and that a second focal plane would be better on 1x IF you weren't using illumination

I've been considering getting my first lpvo and have been watching the reviews for this and I think it was mrgunsngear that referenced this "issue"
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Old 08-04-2018, 06:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacgyverMinded View Post
I bought a Raptor last month and for someone that was looking for kind of a ďdo everythingĒ optic, itís exceeded my expectations in every way. I was a little bit concerned about the weight, but honestly it seems to balance my gun out. Bc of the eye relief, the optic is a little slower for me in 1X up close than a micro dot, but Iím sure Iíll get used to it.
I'm having issues with there being TOO MUCH eye relief.
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:59 AM   #11
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On 3x the fixed optic will likely be superior becuse it should be clearer with a bigger field of view
Howdy ya'll, official PA marketing guy here.

This question is more complex than it appears because not all prism scopes are created equally.

A 3x ACOG will kick the crap out of either the Raptor or our PAC3X prism scope series for clarity and field of view. That's ok, it's a $1200 optic, neither of those products is intended as a direct competitor to the ACOG. That's why we sell TA44 and TA31 ACOGs with our ACSS reticle in them. It's better to do a co-branded product with our awesome reticle in their awesome scope.

Our PAC3X prism scope is a HELL of a value because it's $260 and that includes a really nice mount that doesn't suck and you won't have to replace. Even the cheapest 30mm tube LVPO requires you to spend extra on a mount, and if you're like me you will blow at least $100 on that mount. Our PAC3X is a super tough do-it-all optic that is, in my opinion, one of the best choices around if the wife says you can't spend more than $300 on your scope or she really WILL divorce you this time. But we don't tell anybody that it's "just as good" as an ACOG.

The Raptor 1-6x FFP is the new news and I've only done two range sessions with mine. And I'm here to tell you, the glass quality is way better than any of the other LVPOs we've done so far. It HAS to be for the FFP presentation to not suck, if you try FFP with crap glass you'll really be sorry. The Raptor has some of the best glass I've ever seen come out of China under anyone's brand name. And at 3x I would rather have the Raptor than our PAC3X in terms of eye relief, field of view, glass clarity, and target/reticle acquisition time.

BUT, again, the Raptor is a $400 optic that also requires you to buy a separate mount. To actually put it on your rifle will cost you about double what the PAC3X prism scope costs you. So, that's why there is room for all these products in our warehouse.

This is only my second post on AK files. If you guys ever have any questions about PA products, feel free to ping me and you'll get an honest, no BS answer.
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Old 08-08-2018, 01:33 PM   #12
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PA_Mike
Oh, thanks God you're here now! Something is REALLY wrong with ar15.com, because they don't even allow to register. So screw them.
Good to see you here. I have tons of questions for you

Thank you for your input on the Raptor. Now I'm even more confused since I was saving pennies for 3x and almost know all prons and cons of it (basing on multiple reviews). Damn. Need more pennies now

Once again. Glad to see you here!
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:43 AM   #13
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wind-catcher, since you aren't on AR15.com, let me dump some images here you might find helpful. First, gun pRon! This is my personal Raptor on my 14.5" "recon" build. The mount is an American Defense 1.93", those tall mounts are all the rage right now so I wanted to try one and see what the fuss was about.

Our photography department took the photo and I photoshopped it up a bit to look like those old school 80's and 90's gun magazines. "21st century guns could look something like this FutureGat2000 concept..." LOL



Here are old pics I took on a cloudy day at the range showing the Raptor reticle and the FFP presentation. With FFP in a 1-6x your reticle has to be smartly designed or it'll just disappear at 1x, and that's not fast. So we put a big honkin' horseshoe around the precision parts of the reticle, so at 1x you get a Trijicon-ish "donut of doom" that is really fast to acquire. At 6x the BDC and wind holds become much more visible and usable, so it's the best of both worlds. The outer edge of the horseshoe also functions as a moving target lead, and since the scope is FFP that means the moving target lead words at any magnification. Handy!

Do NOT judge the glass clarity based on these pics. This is literally me holding an iPhone behind the scope as the light was fading. It isn't scientific at all or an accurate depiction of glass quality, but it does give a sense of what the sight picture looks like. In real life the glass is really good from edge to edge.





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Old 08-09-2018, 11:59 AM   #14
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Welcome PA Mike. Liking what you guys are putting out lately. This Raptor hits a sweet spot in my opinion. Great reticle and better glass for $400 is not bad at all. I splurged a few weeks ago for one of your Platinum 1-8 ACSS when it went on sale and am blown away by clarity and build quality. All of your products hit their mark for "what you get for the $$". Keep it up.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:18 PM   #15
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PA_Mike

So if money is not a problem there is no point in getting 3x prism and I should get the Raptor, right? BTW we are speaking about 16" barrel Ak in 7.62x39.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:44 PM   #16
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The prism is smaller and lighter, so if you're trying to do a lightweight build, that's its last advantage.

But the Raptor is a more flexible, more capable optic with better glass. It is faster in CQB and more accurate at 500 yards too, if you don't mind the size and weight penalty you pay to get the extra capability.

Here is Robski giving a pretty decent run down of how the Raptor pairs with a 7.62x39 AK.

https://youtu.be/Wx7yjYUSEzk
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:22 PM   #17
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How generous is eye relief and exit pupil at 6x ? A lot of budget scopes offer 6 or even 8x magnification but they are usefull at 4 or 5x maximum.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:12 PM   #18
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That's a subjective question. Billy Joe Bob who is used to a $80 Walmart blister pack Simmons 3-9x is going to think Raptor is magical sorcery when it comes to eyebox and speed of acquisition. Someone like a professional instructor who is teaching CQB classes every week and runs a $4000 Schmidt & Bender is going to think Raptor is slow and hazy. It really depends on expectations, but I try to impart to people that you won't be disappointed by the value you got out of this $400 scope. Nobody is going to look at Raptor and say "I could have spent $400 on another 1-6x FFP and gotten a better scope". That's a strong statement but yeah I said it. Lets do a comparison with some pertinent specifications.

Here’s Raptor 1-6x:

Eye Relief: 4.3" at 1x, 4.0" at 6x. (Seriously, a forward extended mount is a MUST)

Field of view at 100 yards: 110.0 ft at 1x, 19.8 ft at 6x

Exit Pupil: 9.0 mm at 1x, 4.0 mm at 6x


Lets compare to the Sig Optics Tango 6, also a 1-6x FFP.

Eye relief: 3.6" at 1x, 3.5" at 6x

Field of view at 100 yards: 107.0 ft at 1x, 17.7 ft at 6x

Exit Pupil: 11.3 mm at 1x, 4.0 mm at 6x

Compared to the Sig we have a bit more eye relief, a little bit more field of view but it’s so close that in real life I don’t think you’re going to notice it, and then at 1x their exit pupil is better than ours, presumably their eyebox as well, but then by the time you crank it up to 6x we’ve tied them for exit pupil again. Judging by these numbers I would say the Tango will offer a slight speed advantage at 1x and a slight light gathering advantage at dawn and dusk at 1x, but then if you crank up magnification to 6x that advantage, mathematically, disappears.

Of course this says nothing about the quality of glass, the design of the reticle, and other factors. But that’s as close as I can give you for an apples to apples comparison between our $400 1x6 FFP scope and their $1000 1-6x FFP scope.
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:07 AM   #19
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The problem with Rob_Ski reviews that he is capable of hitting a 600 meters target even with a rock or a slingshot. I can't so far
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:30 AM   #20
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Oh, the last question. What is the battery life time on, lets say, medium setting?

Last edited by wind-catcher; 08-11-2018 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:23 AM   #21
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Oh, the last question. What is the battery life time on, lets say, medium setting?
Just 200 hours, say about a week or so. We put a spare battery in the windage cap in case you get to the range and realize you accidentally left the illumination on last time.

Totally unrelated, if anyone knows someone who has the technology to make illuminated etched reticles equal the battery life of microdots, I have a job opportunity for them, please have them contact me. We would very much like to hire that person and pay them well for that tech.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:37 AM   #22
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CR123, AA or even AAA would be a great start for a longer battery life. 2032 just does not have enough juice in it.
I know you have done it with some optics.... illuminate only a portion of the reticle (the very important are that should be used in the darker environment, BDC and range finder is not needed imo).
Just those two things can give you 10K+ hours of useful illumination (dusk/dawn, moonlight etc).
Maybe have an auto shut off feature as well.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:07 AM   #23
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This is the scope I am looking to put on top of my AR.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:39 AM   #24
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Maybe have an auto shut off feature as well.
Auto shutoff means that it requires logic circuitry and pushbuttons to control it rather than a simple rheostat.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:47 AM   #25
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Auto shutoff means that it requires logic circuitry and pushbuttons to control it rather than a simple rheostat.
It's possible to build variable power scope with such circuitry and a more suitable battery..... maybe with ACOG mount/base vs 30mm rings.
Something similar to VCOG.
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:11 PM   #26
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This is the scope I am looking to put on top of my AR.
I have the non-Raptor 1-6x gen III and love it. If I needed a new 1-6x, this Raptor would definitely be on my short list.
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Old 08-13-2018, 04:07 PM   #27
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Welcome to the Files PA_Mike! Longtime PA customer myself, thanks for chiming in, I was hoping Marsh or somebody would join over here to answer occasional questions.

Let me put a bug in your ear: 3 or 5X prism scope with enough (or maybe an adjustable eye-relief system?) eye-relief to be mounted on an Attero RSB mount or an Ultimak or Manticore gas tube mount. I think it would work better on the Attero rail mount but more folks own a gas tube mount than RSB mounts like the Attero, the K.O.P. etc

Bug #2: A conventional scope either 3-9 or 4-12 that's less than 10 inches long, a true compact, 8 inches would be perfect, there isn't but one out there now and it's a UTG product. A scope like that would sell like gangbusters to PTR-91 owners who have to contend with lengthy scopes interfering with the charging handle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA_Mike View Post
Howdy ya'll, official PA marketing guy here.

This question is more complex than it appears because not all prism scopes are created equally.

A 3x ACOG will kick the crap out of either the Raptor or our PAC3X prism scope series for clarity and field of view. That's ok, it's a $1200 optic, neither of those products is intended as a direct competitor to the ACOG. That's why we sell TA44 and TA31 ACOGs with our ACSS reticle in them. It's better to do a co-branded product with our awesome reticle in their awesome scope.

Our PAC3X prism scope is a HELL of a value because it's $260 and that includes a really nice mount that doesn't suck and you won't have to replace. Even the cheapest 30mm tube LVPO requires you to spend extra on a mount, and if you're like me you will blow at least $100 on that mount. Our PAC3X is a super tough do-it-all optic that is, in my opinion, one of the best choices around if the wife says you can't spend more than $300 on your scope or she really WILL divorce you this time. But we don't tell anybody that it's "just as good" as an ACOG.

The Raptor 1-6x FFP is the new news and I've only done two range sessions with mine. And I'm here to tell you, the glass quality is way better than any of the other LVPOs we've done so far. It HAS to be for the FFP presentation to not suck, if you try FFP with crap glass you'll really be sorry. The Raptor has some of the best glass I've ever seen come out of China under anyone's brand name. And at 3x I would rather have the Raptor than our PAC3X in terms of eye relief, field of view, glass clarity, and target/reticle acquisition time.

BUT, again, the Raptor is a $400 optic that also requires you to buy a separate mount. To actually put it on your rifle will cost you about double what the PAC3X prism scope costs you. So, that's why there is room for all these products in our warehouse.

This is only my second post on AK files. If you guys ever have any questions about PA products, feel free to ping me and you'll get an honest, no BS answer.
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:56 AM   #28
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I love mine, quality scope. I mount it in American Defense and it is perfect for mine Daniel ddm4/11.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:44 PM   #29
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It's possible to build variable power scope with such circuitry and a more suitable battery..... maybe with ACOG mount/base vs 30mm rings.
Something similar to VCOG.
Of course, its possible to do but if you want to do it well then that makes it expensive.
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:40 AM   #30
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Of course, its possible to do but if you want to do it well then that makes it expensive.
That is not what makes U.S made stuff like Trijicon expensive, otherwise their fixed power scopes would be the same price as PA comparable fixed stuff.
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