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Old 03-16-2017, 07:08 PM   #1
BarnOwlLover
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Default Burst vs full auto

I'm asking this because there seems to be a trend towards getting rid of three round burst on military rifles as it's seen as redundant or, ironically, wasteful of ammo (which ironically was why it was introduced due to reports of insane mag dumps in Vietnam and lack of firing discipline from soldiers on both sides).

But now the trend is going back to having either only semi- and full auto, or having semi- and full auto with a two round burst.

For instance, when Frag Out Magazine tested the Beryl M762 last year, they basically said that Radom should get rid of the three round burst. They advocated basically having only semi- or full auto and either using semi-auto double taps or using discipline when in full auto for a 2-3 round burst.

Also consider that the M4A1 carbine has only semi- and full auto instead of three round burst. And that in Russia Kalashnikov Concern have the AK-12 and AK-15 and upgraded AK-74M and AK-103 rifles (and AK-105 and AK-104 carbines) have semi, full auto and a two round burst mode, the latter to emulate a double tap but delivering it at a much higher rate of fire.

Also, it's kinda a marksman ship deal. The third round tends to miss the target due to muzzle climb or, more often (especially with 5.56 or 7.62x39) the target is down and either dead or at least incapacitated by the time the third round gets to them.

So is this a positive trend? I'd hope so, though I'm not a tactician nor own full auto firearms. But it does mean less parts or simplified parts in the trigger mechanism, and I do sort of think that for assault rifles, three round burst is redundant and a two round burst can easily get the job done, even semi-auto can with good shot placement.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:49 PM   #2
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My thoughts are based on my FN FNC reg MG which has the three shot burst. FN designed their burst in a neat pack that slips inside the lower receiver, plus it will reset if you only shoot one or two shots during activation. Sometimes 3 shot can be handier, more controllable than FA.

I know that years back there were issues with the M16 3 shot, mainly it ruined the trigger pull and did not reset if the burst was cut short.

If it is designed properly/neatly 2 or 3 shot can be more usable that FA.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:05 PM   #3
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The Tantal/Beryl burst limiter is a copy of the FN burst limiter system. But that hasn't stopped people from criticizing is as redundant or obsolescent. And oddly, the Frag Out guys otherwise loved the Beryl's trigger mechanism, comparing it favorably to some of the better AR-15 triggers.
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:10 AM   #4
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If I had the option to legally have automatic fire put into any of my rifles, I would prefer to have semi auto and a 3 shot burst. My experience with machine guns is very limited though. So my opinion is based on that!

I liked the 3 shot burst rifle the one time I ever fired it much more than the regular full auto. I could actually consistently hit the targets still. I've thought of buying one of those fancy triggers that are becoming popular right now that give you a sort of 2 shot burst on your AR15. It fires once on the pull and once on the release. You just can't pull and release too fast or it won't fire the second shot. They've got a new one that won't let the hammer follow the carrier home when you mess up. As of right now they're still perfectly legal but kind of pricey.


I can see the argument that someone with more trigger time behind a full auto (not me!) could properly utilize it in controlled short bursts by themselves. I just personaly didn't and do not have enough time and experience with a full auto to be anywhere close to proficient with one once I start letting off any rounds from one.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:26 AM   #5
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Burst mode is one of those features that isnt used as intended generally. The US for example trains soldiers to aim at the feet of the target and ride the 3 shots from the ground up with the recoil.

On the civilian side of machine guns, where we shoot at cars or steel etc, we don't use these guns as intended. Belt guns are generally area suppression, as are light squad weapons. Or a gun like the Thompson was intended to be used in trench warfare. Most civilian machine gun owners like burst features because it helps conserve ammo.
Let's face it, you put a man behind a machine gun and they want to dump the mag/belt. That is true for 99% of the 18yr old guys issued these guns in military branches world wide.

Personally I like the 4 position features of some HK style weapons, and a few others. The ability for burst or full and semi all in one gun make it much more versatile in combat or even range conditions.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:31 PM   #6
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I personally think the 3 round burst is useless. I think that anything other than semi auto is for cover or suppressive fire where a 3 round burst would be impractical. As a CIB'd infantryman, I never moved my selector past semi on my trusty A2 (SN 7324798 won't ever forget that!) during combat in Iraq.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:43 PM   #7
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I wish you guys would smarten up and stop perpetuating this BS.

The Colt M16A2 "3-round burst" is a "burst" in name only.

It's actually a 3-round FA limiter ( but that wouldn't sound as cool to the appropriations committee )

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdphil View Post
I personally think the 3 round burst is useless.
A true 3-round burst works great.

Three rounds being fired off with only the recoil of one? Three rounds traveling to the target on almost the same flight path? What's not to like?

Sadly, only a few makers offer such an option ( and Colt isn't one of them )


Simple rule of thumb:

Is it a burst or a limiter?

Burst = 2 or 3 rounds fired at a much faster rate than the normal full auto rate of the weapon.

Limiter = 2 or 3 rounds fired at the same rate as full auto on the weapon.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnOwlLover View Post

Also, it's kinda a marksman ship deal. The third round tends to miss the target due to muzzle climb or, more often (especially with 5.56 or 7.62x39) the target is down and either dead or at least incapacitated by the time the third round gets to them.

Ok.. I can maaaybe see muzzle climb being a bit of an issue with three round burst, ( if one knows what they're doing, full auto, let alone burst, is easily managed and the first couple rounds will normally be on target ) but the rest of that is pretty much pure silliness.

Do you really believe a target will drop/fall so quickly down after being hit by the first and second rounds of burst that the third round will pass well clear? Even with rapid semi auto fired three rounds, those three rounds will have struck before the target can even sort out what happened, let alone drop out of the line of fire.
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:15 PM   #9
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The HK G11 has a three round burst at 2,000 RPM if I recall correctly and fires caseless ammunition. I'd love to have an hour at the range with one of those.
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Originally Posted by MikeManassas View Post
So, can I assume that WTF is not one of the Marketplace headings like WTS, WTB, or WTT?
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweersa View Post
The HK G11 has a three round burst at 2,000 RPM if I recall correctly and fires caseless ammunition. I'd love to have an hour at the range with one of those.
yeah that rifle and their old VP70M machine pistol, which had a similar three shot burst rate.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:44 AM   #11
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Having used both, I like the option to have both. Count me in the 4 position selector group.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:14 AM   #12
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A 3-4 round burst should be more than doable with even a descent operator on fa setting.
In theory 4 position would be ok but more moving parts to go wrong. jmho.
Have seen it done many times even with mac stuff running 1100 rpm.
AR / AK's at almost half that.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:10 PM   #13
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Granted, I can see the burst limiters, be it two or three rounds, being useful if the rate of fire is sped up. Examples being the AN-94 and the HK G11. In burst mode, both can fire at nearly 2000rpm. But in simple full auto, that rate gets cut in both rifles to 600rpm.

Burst limiters have been a feature on rifles since Vietnam. When you see reports of soldiers spending several hundred rounds (one report I heard that it took the average US soldier armed with a M16 or a NVA/Viet Cong armed with a AK-47 over 2000 rounds for one hit/kill), you can see why commanders would be concerned with ammo wastage.

But a two or three round burst, as far as being assured of hitting the target with all rounds fired, needs to be about 1500-2000rpm. And unless you want a lot of mechanical complication, you need either a revolver gun (basically a Gatling gun with a single barrel), an actual Gatling gun, or some World War II/Korean War era aircraft armament in rifle calibers. About the closest an actual ground weapon got to that was the MG-42. And it was pretty wasteful of ammo, even as a GPMG.

I'd favor firing discipline in full auto, but there's always the chance of a mag dump in a panic situation.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnOwlLover View Post
Granted, I can see the burst limiters
The what?

It's one or the other, broski
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:31 PM   #15
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safe, semi, 2 round, FA and I am good thanks
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Old 04-23-2017, 03:13 PM   #16
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To heck with all that...I want a Mk 19 grenade launcher

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Old 04-23-2017, 03:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike in pa View Post
yeah that rifle and their old VP70M machine pistol, which had a similar three shot burst rate.
Don't forget the Beretta 93R pistol.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:38 AM   #18
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3 round burst is stupid.. semi is better in almost all situations FA is almost never used unless it for ambush and you fill the killzone with lead.. (claymore ) is better option.. rapid aimed shots is the training doctrine when operators are operating... I like the AN94 concept (two shots) at hyper cyclic rate..but the gun is way too complicated... the salvo project was a cool idea but needs better technology to be more effective.. I'd take semi auto and the russian counter balanced system...in FA or two rd burst..
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allesennogwat View Post
Don't forget the Beretta 93R pistol.
Some F/A AUG hammer packs have a shifter switch which sets them up as either 3RB or full auto. You pick one or the other, but not both.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/l...UG/3RBPack.jpg

Last edited by nalioth; 04-24-2017 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Fixed huge image(s)
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:57 PM   #20
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Just get an FN FNC with 4 position selector and enjoy the best of 3 worlds.
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Originally Posted by MikeManassas View Post
So, can I assume that WTF is not one of the Marketplace headings like WTS, WTB, or WTT?
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Old 04-29-2017, 05:31 PM   #21
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I put my M16 receiver on my 300 blackout upper, running it suppressed, and even with good fire discipline, it was almost impossible to get two hits on a tractor trailer rim on its side, or about 12" in height.

No matter how good the burst or limiter is, you are going to have muzzle rise after the first shot.
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frick View Post
No matter how good the burst or limiter is, you are going to have muzzle rise after the first shot.
This is patently bullshit.

Higher cyclic rates = higher hit potential when "feathering" the trigger.
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:29 AM   #23
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These seem to work rather well. At least the ones I have used do. Even on full it pretty easy to stay on target. Granted it isn't 5.56 or x39.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/85bcc856...e4to1_1280.jpg
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
This is patently bullshit.

Higher cyclic rates = higher hit potential when "feathering" the trigger.
HKG11 solves that problem.
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So, can I assume that WTF is not one of the Marketplace headings like WTS, WTB, or WTT?
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Simple rule of thumb:

Is it a burst or a limiter?

Burst = 2 or 3 rounds fired at a much faster rate than the normal full auto rate of the weapon.

Limiter = 2 or 3 rounds fired at the same rate as full auto on the weapon.
This brings up the fundamental dilemma with burst versus FA.

The faster the burst, the better it is. On guns with a higher ROF burst can be a valuable tool for both control and ammo conservation. In FA, slower is better. Especially if you're going to use it when it matters. Brakes take time to work, and muscles take that initial redirection to settle in to the ongoing wave of recoil. A nice slow full auto allows for control and input correction as the recoil impulses are distinguishable from each other. It's still faster than you could jerk the trigger, without the movement from doing so.

It really depends on the ROF, and what you are doing with it. So all options, with the exception of the "limiter" are fundamentally good. Where the limiter requires extra unnecessary training and brain work. (Or like many, simply don't use it)

On paper this would make the AN-94 ideal. In reality land, not so much...
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:24 PM   #26
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I'll pass on burst.

I've never wanted burst on a full auto weapon.

Burst has no place on a belt fed and doesn't enable a carbine any more than training can.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:55 PM   #27
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As a civilian, I'm grooving to a binary trigger on one of my ARs.

I like it.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe2013 View Post
I'll pass on burst.

I've never wanted burst on a full auto weapon.

Burst has no place on a belt fed and doesn't enable a carbine any more than training can.
Probably because you've never dealt with a real "burst" ( and not a round limiter )

As far as "belt feds", they are easily fired in bursts, once you get used to their fire rate, for the same effect as ( the holy grail ) "burst" in an infantry rifle - higher hit probability downrange.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:33 PM   #29
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I was in a Army Avn Unit, we carried in our UH1s and OH58s helicopters M16A1 rifles and M60 machine guns. I see very little use for burst mode, I'd want full auto for area supression fire, and semi for everything else.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
I wish you guys would smarten up and stop perpetuating this BS.

The Colt M16A2 "3-round burst" is a "burst" in name only.

It's actually a 3-round FA limiter ( but that wouldn't sound as cool to the appropriations committee )

A true 3-round burst works great.

Three rounds being fired off with only the recoil of one? Three rounds traveling to the target on almost the same flight path? What's not to like?

Sadly, only a few makers offer such an option ( and Colt isn't one of them )




Simple rule of thumb:

Is it a burst or a limiter?

Burst = 2 or 3 rounds fired at a much faster rate than the normal full auto rate of the weapon.

Limiter = 2 or 3 rounds fired at the same rate as full auto on the weapon.
Like at what ? 2000 RPM ? Hitler's buzz saw with a slick trigger arrangement ?

Why not ONE real caliber round such as the "Old fashioned" .308 or 30/06 ?
Plus you get the added range and penetration as a freebie.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:20 PM   #31
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I have several M16s.
When thinking that Hillary was going to win (didn't everybody ?) I wanted to sell some.
Sold a "three round burst" and kept the fully automatics.
My brain can figure out three round bursts.
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Old 06-03-2017, 02:56 PM   #32
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I'd want both fa and 2 round burst.
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