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Old 04-12-2019, 11:43 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Avtomatkalashnikov View Post
anyone can get a cheap bolt action deer rifle and it will pierce almost all of what is consider body Armour.
Yeah, but we're discussing handguns here.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:46 AM   #72
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Avtomatkalashnikov, the Glock 29 is between the 26/27 and 19/23 in size. 10mm ammo isn't that expensive in weak loadings if you look for deals on the various deal aggregator websites, but there aren't many options for full power defensive loads.

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5.7x28 is only "armor piercing" if you're police or military. Civilian sales of AP ammo are restricted.
Elite T6B is available to civilians and easily penetrates IIIA, which is probably the most common anti-pistol soft armor. FN SS190 AP ammo is legal for civilians at the Federal level and available on the secondary market, but it's expensive because FN tries to block resale to civilians. No pistols will penetrate hard plates designed to stop rifle rounds.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:53 AM   #73
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Also if you did make a compact 5.7 pistol you would likely see a massive drop off in muzzle velocity, which with a .22 cal bullet is the only thing its got going for it.

As for the whole 9mm vs 40sw vs 10mm vs 45acp.. Generally pistols are a compromise. Muzzle energy comes at a cost in controllability and capacity. The 10mm FBI pistols was a product of the failed idea that a pistol could be as good as a rifle.. Now most agencies are seeing the error of their ways and are issuing a pistol that is a pistol, and a rifle that is a rifle.

9mm is in my opinion a decent crossover point for the average user.. A 40S&W or 10mm may be better for muzzle energy, but they give up a lot in controllability that has to be compensated for with additional training.. Problem is that training is often skipped by officers. Muzzle energy only counts if the round hits the target.. A hit with a 9mm is better than two misses with a 10mm.. And if the problem is bad enough that a 9mm can't get the job done, you should really have brought a rifle.

I don't hate 40s&w, but I just don't see what it does that I need.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:54 AM   #74
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No pistols will penetrate hard plates designed to stop rifle rounds.
14.5" 5.56 pistol might
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:01 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Avtomatkalashnikov View Post
i havent fully looked into 10mm auto yet but from what i know now it is better.
If you google terms like Dornhaus and Dixon, Jeff Cooper/10mm, and Bren Ten, the picture will fill out for you.

As far as a compact 5/7, you just take away the reason it is by chopping the barrel.

It is a gimmick.
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:09 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by csspecs View Post
Also if you did make a compact 5.7 pistol you would likely see a massive drop off in muzzle velocity, which with a .22 cal bullet is the only thing its got going for it.
Length is the least important dimension for concealability, so you don't need to sacrifice that. What I'd like to see is a full length 5.7x28 that's thinner than a normal double stack, like the P365, and has a somewhat shorter grip. You could probably get 16+1 in form factor that conceals better than a Glock 19/23.

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Originally Posted by czarslayer
14.5" 5.56 pistol might
And that's why calibers like .308 and 7.62x39 are classified as handgun ammo by the BATFE, subjecting them to the silly AP ammo restrictions based on bullet composition.
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Old 04-13-2019, 08:29 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
The only thing the OP forgot to mention is that when the ammo shortage was in full swing : .40 was still available on shelves (!!)

Because no one wanted it.
Because its stupid.
I shot the piss out of it with my high point. Thought it was pretty funny I would be the only guy to walk out of the store with any ammo at all.

Remember it to be quite snappy but still didnt really have any trouble dumping 10rnds into a large drink cup sized group at 20yds
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:03 AM   #78
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.40 S&W sucks because it operates at too high a chamber pressure although that pressure is exactly the same as 9mm and less than that of 9mm +P.

.40 S&W is "short and weak" because it is more powerful than both 9mm and .45 ACP.

.40 S&W is "wimpy" because its recoil is too strong.

.40 S&W offers absolutely no benefit over 9mm although it offers superior penetration through auto glass.

.40 S&W is crap because 16 rounds of 180 grain HST in the gun isn't enough, but 6 rounds of 9mm in a S&W Shield or similar gun, is plenty.

.40 S&W is a joke because the law of conservation of momentum doesn't apply when comparing 180 grain bullets with 115-147 grain bullets.

.40 S&W is a total waste because advances in bullet design that allowed 9mm to become a viable self defense cartridge were also applied to .40 S&W.

.40 S&W is garbage, because when comparing its additional recoil to that of 9mm, no one should do the same when comparing .40 to 10 mm because 10 mm rocks.
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:57 AM   #79
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.40 hurt my sensibilities in glock27.

.40 is nice in my pt-100.

therefore:


.40 is a threat to manhood and is shunned because most cant shoot it?
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:58 AM   #80
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The only area 9mm is more desirable then 40 S&W is capacity.

40 S&W is perfectly fine and better for alot of reasons, but I also prefer 10mm......but not as many options nor is good ammo
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.40 S&W sucks because it operates at too high a chamber pressure although that pressure is exactly the same as 9mm and less than that of 9mm +P.

.40 S&W is "short and weak" because it is more powerful than both 9mm and .45 ACP.

.40 S&W is "wimpy" because its recoil is too strong.

.40 S&W offers absolutely no benefit over 9mm although it offers superior penetration through auto glass.

.40 S&W is crap because 16 rounds of 180 grain HST in the gun isn't enough, but 6 rounds of 9mm in a S&W Shield or similar gun, is plenty.

.40 S&W is a joke because the law of conservation of momentum doesn't apply when comparing 180 grain bullets with 115-147 grain bullets.

.40 S&W is a total waste because advances in bullet design that allowed 9mm to become a viable self defense cartridge were also applied to .40 S&W.

.40 S&W is garbage, because when comparing its additional recoil to that of 9mm, no one should do the same when comparing .40 to 10 mm because 10 mm rocks.
Good post.
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:24 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
No, it can't.

That's one of the issues with .40 S&W - it's already loaded to "max".

This is why you don't see .40 S&W +P ( or hotter )


Why should we post a link? You're gonna have to think about whatever is linked to get what is being said.

Nowhere does it say "made for a woman ( and fags )", but if you look at the thought process behind the .40 S&W, it is indeed made with "the fairer sex" ( and effeminate men ) in mind.
.40S&W +P circa 1998. Bought with my now sold USP40.
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:30 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Oldsalt View Post
.40 S&W sucks because it operates at too high a chamber pressure although that pressure is exactly the same as 9mm and less than that of 9mm +P.

.
The problem comes when they try to shove that dimensionally larger high pressure round, into pistols designed for the smaller 9mm round, and that is what the majority of the original .40s were. Hence the problems that occurred, both in durability and in handling.
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by jm7 View Post
.40S&W +P circa 1998. Bought with my now sold USP40.
It may say +P on the box. but the velocity is that of standard loads.

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Ballistic performance

Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
10.69 g (165 gr) Federal FMJ 1,130 ft/s (340 m/s) 68 ft⋅lbf (635 J)
7.45 g (115 gr) Cor-Bon Glaser 1,400 ft/s (430 m/s) 500 ft⋅lbf (680 J)
10.04 g (155 gr) Federal HST 1,160 ft/s (350 m/s) 463 ft⋅lbf (628 J)
8.74 g (135 gr) Underwood JHP 1,400 ft/s (430 m/s) 588 ft⋅lbf (797 J)
12.95 g (200 gr) Doubletap FMJ FP 1,050 ft/s (320 m/s) 490 ft⋅lbf (660 J)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

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Old 04-13-2019, 12:49 PM   #84
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The problem comes when they try to shove that dimensionally larger high pressure round, into pistols designed for the smaller 9mm round, and that is what the majority of the original .40s were. Hence the problems that occurred, both in durability and in handling.
Sad but true, with the Browning BHP turning out to be the classic example. I can't begin to tell you how many people pondered converting the .40s to 9mm with the idea of getting a truly durable pistol. You have to give credit to Steyr (or at least that demigod among designers, Herr Doktor Wilhelm Bubits) and SIG - IIRC, they were the first to actually design the pistol around the .40 rather than try to adapt a 9mm package to the .40.
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Old 04-13-2019, 01:12 PM   #85
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Sad but true, with the Browning BHP turning out to be the classic example. I can't begin to tell you how many people pondered converting the .40s to 9mm with the idea of getting a truly durable pistol. You have to give credit to Steyr (or at least that demigod among designers, Herr Doktor Wilhelm Bubits) and SIG - IIRC, they were the first to actually design the pistol around the .40 rather than try to adapt a 9mm package to the .40.
No, HK and Walther were the first to design pistols around the .40 S&W.

The USP and the P99

Herr Wilhelm Bubits just recognized a good idea when he saw it


Sig just resprung some of their venerable old horses.
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:45 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Il Cattivo View Post
Sad but true, with the Browning BHP turning out to be the classic example. I can't begin to tell you how many people pondered converting the .40s to 9mm with the idea of getting a truly durable pistol. You have to give credit to Steyr (or at least that demigod among designers, Herr Doktor Wilhelm Bubits) and SIG - IIRC, they were the first to actually design the pistol around the .40 rather than try to adapt a 9mm package to the .40.
The factory BHP in 40 S&W is made of a tougher steel and they wouldn't release it until they got it to reliably feed 155 grain Federal Hydra Shok ammo.

Many early 40 S&W pistols had problems feeding that ammo due to it being shorter than the usual standard, but it was popular ammo, so they wanted to make sure the BHP would feed it.
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:54 PM   #87
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The factory BHP in 40 S&W is made of a tougher steel and they wouldn't release it until they got it to reliably feed 155 grain Federal Hydra Shok ammo.
The .40 BHP is also a heinously re-designed pistol ( the slide was enlarged to support the .40 S&W )
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Old 04-13-2019, 03:02 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Sigiloso View Post
The problem comes when they try to shove that dimensionally larger high pressure round, into pistols designed for the smaller 9mm round, and that is what the majority of the original .40s were. Hence the problems that occurred, both in durability and in handling.
Shoe horning .40 S&W into pistols such as the Glocks, designed originally for 9mm was problematic, but those, like the S&W M&Ps which were actually designed as .40 pistols were fine.

The early difficulties lie at the feet of the 9mm pistol designs which were improperly adopted for the larger cartridge and not with the round itself.
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Old 04-13-2019, 03:44 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
The .40 BHP is also a heinously re-designed pistol ( the slide was enlarged to support the .40 S&W )
I happen to have one, and I don't find it the least bit heinous.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/363967/Jul%2095.pdf
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Old 04-13-2019, 04:53 PM   #90
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When the BHP in 40 S&W came out, the steel was upgraded in the 9mm models to the same steel.
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Old 04-13-2019, 06:04 PM   #91
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Sig just resprung some of their venerable old horses.
No, there at least is where SIG switched from the stamped steel slide on the 9mm 228 to the milled stainless steel (and substantially heavier) slide of the 229 to accommodate both the .40 and the then-new 357SIG.
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Old 04-13-2019, 06:07 PM   #92
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No, there at least is where SIG switched from the stamped steel slide on the 9mm 228 to the milled stainless steel (and substantially heavier) slide of the 229 to accommodate both the .40 and the then-new 357SIG.
Isn't that more of a "our guns aren't made in the motherland any more" issue?
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Old 04-13-2019, 07:19 PM   #93
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These handgun caliber war threads started a very long time ago and just will not die.
For the most part handguns are underpowered weapons for easy carry.
Ballistics mean nothing, if you hit nothing.
Carry what you shoot the best.
Quality guns with quality service caliber ammo.
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Old 04-13-2019, 07:40 PM   #94
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I shoot 9MM Because I only shoot minor power factor. It recoils nice, I can get back on target quick and the ammo is cheap. I also use it for concealed carry, nightstand gun. And in a pcc. Not sure of its better than .40.: don’t care.

I consolidated calibers a few years ago. Less hassle for me now.
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Old 04-13-2019, 08:21 PM   #95
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Isn't that more of a "our guns aren't made in the motherland any more" issue?
They are made in the original place and others now.

Here is the German P229.

https://sigsauer.de/p229/

They just don't say West Germany on them anymore.

I think the P229 came out for 40 S&W in 1992 and before the 357 Sig came out in 1994.
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:45 PM   #96
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Because it is a poorly conceived and designed cartridge with an overly abrupt pressure curve . It does nothing most other handgun rounds already do except to beat to death the 9mm sized pistol frames the .40s&w was stuffed into . If one wants a .40 all one needs to do is get a 10mm auto .
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Oldsalt View Post
.40 S&W sucks because it operates at too high a chamber pressure although that pressure is exactly the same as 9mm and less than that of 9mm +P.

.40 S&W is "short and weak" because it is more powerful than both 9mm and .45 ACP.

.40 S&W is "wimpy" because its recoil is too strong.

.40 S&W offers absolutely no benefit over 9mm although it offers superior penetration through auto glass.

.40 S&W is crap because 16 rounds of 180 grain HST in the gun isn't enough, but 6 rounds of 9mm in a S&W Shield or similar gun, is plenty.

.40 S&W is a joke because the law of conservation of momentum doesn't apply when comparing 180 grain bullets with 115-147 grain bullets.

.40 S&W is a total waste because advances in bullet design that allowed 9mm to become a viable self defense cartridge were also applied to .40 S&W.

.40 S&W is garbage, because when comparing its additional recoil to that of 9mm, no one should do the same when comparing .40 to 10 mm because 10 mm rocks.
^^This is a perfect explanation of the “reasoning” some use to persuade ,40 S&W shooters that their 9mm is superior. Crazy
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:38 PM   #98
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It's not the fact the 40 is the same chamber pressure it's the fact the larger case develops more thrust.that means more wear on parts.

I'm just going to shoot what ever bad guy ONCE with my
7.62 x25 and call it a day.

Guys saying the 40 was made for less recoil but not for women ????
Why else would they make it that way?? Follow up shots ?? Maybe but the 40 was made for people complaining about recoil.

Some day I'll get my 9x23 barrel done.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:15 AM   #99
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It's not the fact the 40 is the same chamber pressure it's the fact the larger case develops more thrust.that means more wear on parts.

I'm just going to shoot what ever bad guy ONCE with my
7.62 x25 and call it a day.

Guys saying the 40 was made for less recoil but not for women ????
Why else would they make it that way?? Follow up shots ?? Maybe but the 40 was made for people complaining about recoil.

Some day I'll get my 9x23 barrel done.
To put it in perspective, it was the result of people complaining about the recoil of the 10mm. The same people who had been used to the 9mm and .38 Special. The supposed "failure" of the 9mm being the reason the whole shitaree started.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:46 AM   #100
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S&W had been working on the 40 with a rebated 9mm rim.

When the 41 Action Express failures were wrongly blamed on having a rebated rim, rather than 9mm ejection ports being too small, S&W abandoned the 40 project.

Then the FBI started using 10mm that had the same ballistics as the 40 S&W.

The 10mm pistols were large and heavy.

The recoil wasn't a problem.

S&W teamed with Winchester to make the 40 S&W without a rebated rim.

Then offered smaller, lighter pistols with the same ballistics the FBI was using.

This made 40 S&W popular with law enforcement, both for weight and expense of the pistols.

At the time, 41 caliber was thought to be the ideal size BULLET for handgun effectiveness, with 10mm / 40 caliber being very close.

Nobody got less recoil with 40 S&W, just lighter, less expensive firearms.
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:40 AM   #101
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My bedside gun is a G35. It can make follow up shots but fine with it. I have a G22 I throw in the car Cuz it was cheap. I make follow up shots just fine with it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:12 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Oldsalt View Post
.40 S&W sucks because it operates at too high a chamber pressure although that pressure is exactly the same as 9mm and less than that of 9mm +P.

.40 S&W is "short and weak" because it is more powerful than both 9mm and .45 ACP.

.40 S&W is "wimpy" because its recoil is too strong.

.40 S&W offers absolutely no benefit over 9mm although it offers superior penetration through auto glass.

.40 S&W is crap because 16 rounds of 180 grain HST in the gun isn't enough, but 6 rounds of 9mm in a S&W Shield or similar gun, is plenty.

.40 S&W is a joke because the law of conservation of momentum doesn't apply when comparing 180 grain bullets with 115-147 grain bullets.

.40 S&W is a total waste because advances in bullet design that allowed 9mm to become a viable self defense cartridge were also applied to .40 S&W.

.40 S&W is garbage, because when comparing its additional recoil to that of 9mm, no one should do the same when comparing .40 to 10 mm because 10 mm rocks.

Everything about this post is spot on. The .40 S&W is, has been, and will remain an excellent cartridge for defense against people.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:52 AM   #103
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I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in here.

9mm went full circle.

There was a problem with the hollow point bullets. The jackets separated from the lead cores during impact.

The solution was to bond (solder, etc.) the jackets to the cores. Had this solution been implemented first, there never would have been a .40 cal cartridge.
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:12 PM   #104
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Well, Ruger isn't "hating" on the .40 S&W, as the new additions to their PC carbine lineup include three chambered in .40:

https://www.ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/models.html

https://www.ruger.com/products/pcCar...ets/19109.html
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:31 PM   #105
lowprone
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I just want the 40S&W cartridge to become as cheap as everyone thinks the pistols are.
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