Giving away a homemade firearm

TheLegionnaire · 05-04-2012, 09:53 AM

Something I've been wondering is, If i make a firearm can I give it to someone and I mean give not sell it to them.
I'm wondering if there any laws surrounding this, because I know if you going to build and sell firearms you need an FFL and pay some fees which is expensive. But again i'm wondering what would have to be done to give someone the firearm, because i'm guessing i'd have to give the gun a serial number, model number, and have a record of who you gave it to.

Also if you wondering why I want to know this, it's because soon i'm going to open up a little competition that involve designing the look for my Revolver project, And the winner I would like to get a prize which would be the standard variant of the design, because I think that would be cool since they drew the shape and look and now they can see and own it in reality.

KernelKrink · 05-04-2012, 10:00 AM

The reason home builders are exempt from licence requirements is they are building for "personal use". Building for a "prize" sure sounds like personal use-NOT.

TheLegionnaire · 05-04-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KernelKrink

The reason home builders are exempt from licence requirements is they are building for "personal use". Building for a "prize" sure sounds like personal use-NOT.

Ya I know that, but i'm asking is there really a difference in terms what has to be done to give away and to sell. Because if I have to spend the couple thousand just to do it that not worth it then, but a bunch of a paperwork and a small fee i'd have little problem with.

Also isn't the receiver/frame the part of a firearm that is considered the gun, well everything else is really just a part.

KernelKrink · 05-04-2012, 10:38 AM

The legal term is "Transfer", as in ownership of the item. ATF cares not if you give it away or charge a million bucks, the ownership changes and that's all they care about from a legal standpoint.

"Did you build this gun for your own personal use?" "Yes, I did". Legal home build.

"Did you build this gun for the purpose of transferring it to another person?" "Yes, I did". Not personal use, license required.

Now, you CAN transfer a home build if you LATER decide you no longer want it or whatever, but with these threads you've put out there for posterity no Jury is ever gonna buy that.

TheLegionnaire · 05-04-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KernelKrink

The legal term is "Transfer", as in ownership of the item. ATF cares not if you give it away or charge a million bucks, the ownership changes and that's all they care about from a legal standpoint.

"Did you build this gun for your own personal use?" "Yes, I did". Legal home build.

"Did you build this gun for the purpose of transferring it to another person?" "Yes, I did". Not personal use, license required.

Now, you CAN transfer a home build if you LATER decide you no longer want it or whatever, but with these threads you've put out there for posterity no Jury is ever gonna buy that.

Well that sucks, oh well. Would have been an awesome thing to do, but atleast I there still nothing wrong with building myself one.
Who ever wins will atleast know they helped design something cool, and maybe down the road if it seems worth it i'll get the FFL and all that stuff, only if it worth it.

binkybeat · 05-06-2012, 02:22 AM

It's all about intent. If I build a rifle for my own use and then lose my job a year later and decide to sell it, then, as I understand it, no laws have been broken. However, in your case, it sounds like a build with intent to transfer, which is a no-go according to law.

irierider · 05-06-2012, 02:17 PM

have him help you build it.. did he design it... thats helping... if you helped me do the lathe work on a gun i designed and i helped you build it, then it would be mine!

scooterwrench · 05-06-2012, 04:27 PM

What if he gave away something that he's already built?

KernelKrink · 05-06-2012, 06:08 PM

Again, INTENT is everything, or more precisely what the Prosecuter and Jury thinks your intent was at the time you built it.

Did he INTEND to build a gun for his own personal use? Yes, he is legal.

Did he LATER decide to give/sell/raffle off/etc. that same gun to Mr X for whatever reason? Yes, he is legal as long as he follows the ATF regs for a normal transfer. Some use on the gun would also go towards this, an unfired "Safe Queen" raises doubts as to where the "use" part comes in.

OTOH, did he INTEND to build this gun for the purpose of selling/giving/raffling off/ etc. to Mr X when he built it? Yes, he needs an FFL as that is not for personal use.

Can he transfer his "personal use" gun to Mr. X later if he posts his transfer plans on the Internet before he even builds the gun? Whatever you think you can convince a Jury to believe, Bub.

scooterwrench · 05-06-2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KernelKrink

Again, INTENT is everything, or more precisely what the Prosecuter and Jury thinks your intent was at the time you built it.

Did he INTEND to build a gun for his own personal use? Yes, he is legal.

Did he LATER decide to give/sell/raffle off/etc. that same gun to Mr X for whatever reason? Yes, he is legal as long as he follows the ATF regs for a normal transfer. Some use on the gun would also go towards this, an unfired "Safe Queen" raises doubts as to where the "use" part comes in.

OTOH, did he INTEND to build this gun for the purpose of selling/giving/raffling off/ etc. to Mr X when he built it? Yes, he needs an FFL as that is not for personal use.

Can he transfer his "personal use" gun to Mr. X later if he posts his transfer plans on the Internet before he even builds the gun? Whatever you think you can convince a Jury to believe, Bub.

To legionnaire, Looks like you shot yourself in the foot on this one unless you give away something you've already built and fired or look for a loophole.
Big brother is a PITA!!!!!

knall · 05-07-2012, 11:02 PM

Helping someone else build is the best way. He built it. Its his gun. I just helped.

If were talking about an ak flat..... al he has to do is pull the handle on the press. He made the non receiver into a firearm. Everything else is just assembling parts onto a gun.

WTSGDYBBR · 05-08-2012, 12:00 AM

Put it back in a kit format and give it away . ILL TAKE IT !!

JG · 05-12-2012, 10:05 AM

Can anyone site the law that prohibits the manufacturing or selling a firearm as a hobby? How about the marking requirements for non NFA items by non manufacturers( i.e. homebuilders).

See
18 USC 921(11), 18 USC 921(21)(c), 18 USC 921(22),and CFR 478.11 (b and c)

KernelKrink · 05-12-2012, 09:55 PM

Buying and selling as a hobby is a bit different from manufacturing a gun for sale. Selling off your collection a piece or two at a time is a time honored tradition amongst owners and collectors. You only need a licencee involved if the transfer is out of state or state law prohibits "face to face private sales". Once you get into it for the purpose of making money ("engaged in the business"), it requires an FFL. At what point does this happen? ATF has no set rules, guidelines, or laws. They look at you and your activities, decide if they wanna bust you, and go from there. The last thing they wanna do is have it written down that you must sell "XX" guns per year to need a license. Kinda puts the crimp on their prosecution of the outlaw biker selling one Barrett .50 a month to his buddies. The legitimate collector doing the same thing with Mausers, they don't need the paperwork hassles. The guy selling 4 guns a week out of his garage? Better get the license.

Manufacturing guns for sale or transfer requires a license.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/921

(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of
sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means
any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or
manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with
and received a license to do so from the Attorney General.

---------------------------------------------------------

ATF has held that the ONLY exemption from the license requirement for manufacturers are guns not made for sale or transfer, IOW "Personal Use" guns. If you can get a letter from them stating "hobby manufacture for the purpose of resale or distribution" is OK, go for it. It might help sway the Jury.

The marking requirements are from a letter from ATF that states it's OK to sell a homemade firearm receiver gun as long as it wasn't made with that intent. They recognize that one may want to sell or otherwise transfer a gun they built at some later date. The letter states they must mark it in accordance with the CFR reg manufacturers must follow in regards to info and size/depth of characters used.

http://www.gunco.net/forums/f54/inte...tter-atf-2737/

There has been some discussion on this as the law only sez "licensed manufacturers" must apply these markings, and we homebuilders aint licensed. I figger a few number and letter stamps is worth not having to fight it out in court.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....6.1.2&idno=27

a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

LESchwartz · 05-20-2012, 01:20 AM

If you build for personal use, you have to mark it before transferring it to another person.

I've posted this info from ATF way bak in '04 . . . http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4435

Larry

05-04-2012, 09:53 AM	#1
TheLegionnaire Member AKaholic #: 162390 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: chicago Posts: 24	Giving away a homemade firearm Something I've been wondering is, If i make a firearm can I give it to someone and I mean give not sell it to them. I'm wondering if there any laws surrounding this, because I know if you going to build and sell firearms you need an FFL and pay some fees which is expensive. But again i'm wondering what would have to be done to give someone the firearm, because i'm guessing i'd have to give the gun a serial number, model number, and have a record of who you gave it to. Also if you wondering why I want to know this, it's because soon i'm going to open up a little competition that involve designing the look for my Revolver project, And the winner I would like to get a prize which would be the standard variant of the design, because I think that would be cool since they drew the shape and look and now they can see and own it in reality. __________________ A ruler and a pencil, can turn an idea into reality if you let yourself do so.

05-06-2012, 04:27 PM	#8
scooterwrench Member AKaholic #: 162216 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Rosewood,Fl. Posts: 482	What if he gave away something that he's already built? __________________ Guns don't kill people! People kill people!

05-12-2012, 10:05 AM	#13
JG Member AKaholic #: 162318 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 28	Can anyone site the law that prohibits the manufacturing or selling a firearm as a hobby? How about the marking requirements for non NFA items by non manufacturers( i.e. homebuilders). See 18 USC 921(11), 18 USC 921(21)(c), 18 USC 921(22),and CFR 478.11 (b and c) Last edited by JG; 05-12-2012 at 10:07 AM. Reason: clarity

05-20-2012, 01:20 AM	#15
LESchwartz Veteran Member Contributor AKaholic #: 2434 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Sunny Minnesota Posts: 1,156	If you build for personal use, you have to mark it before transferring it to another person. I've posted this info from ATF way bak in '04 . . . http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4435 Larry __________________ For more info see my SKS FAQ: http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html

05-04-2012, 10:00 AM	#2
KernelKrink Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 2036 Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 7,555	The reason home builders are exempt from licence requirements is they are building for "personal use". Building for a "prize" sure sounds like personal use-NOT.

05-04-2012, 10:38 AM	#4
KernelKrink Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 2036 Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 7,555	The legal term is "Transfer", as in ownership of the item. ATF cares not if you give it away or charge a million bucks, the ownership changes and that's all they care about from a legal standpoint. "Did you build this gun for your own personal use?" "Yes, I did". Legal home build. "Did you build this gun for the purpose of transferring it to another person?" "Yes, I did". Not personal use, license required. Now, you CAN transfer a home build if you LATER decide you no longer want it or whatever, but with these threads you've put out there for posterity no Jury is ever gonna buy that.

05-06-2012, 02:22 AM	#6
binkybeat Senior Member Contributor AKaholic #: 162197 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Kansas City, KS Posts: 788	It's all about intent. If I build a rifle for my own use and then lose my job a year later and decide to sell it, then, as I understand it, no laws have been broken. However, in your case, it sounds like a build with intent to transfer, which is a no-go according to law.

05-06-2012, 06:08 PM	#9
KernelKrink Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 2036 Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 7,555	Again, INTENT is everything, or more precisely what the Prosecuter and Jury thinks your intent was at the time you built it. Did he INTEND to build a gun for his own personal use? Yes, he is legal. Did he LATER decide to give/sell/raffle off/etc. that same gun to Mr X for whatever reason? Yes, he is legal as long as he follows the ATF regs for a normal transfer. Some use on the gun would also go towards this, an unfired "Safe Queen" raises doubts as to where the "use" part comes in. OTOH, did he INTEND to build this gun for the purpose of selling/giving/raffling off/ etc. to Mr X when he built it? Yes, he needs an FFL as that is not for personal use. Can he transfer his "personal use" gun to Mr. X later if he posts his transfer plans on the Internet before he even builds the gun? Whatever you think you can convince a Jury to believe, Bub.

05-07-2012, 11:02 PM	#11
knall Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 5181 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: northern NH Posts: 4,302	Helping someone else build is the best way. He built it. Its his gun. I just helped. If were talking about an ak flat..... al he has to do is pull the handle on the press. He made the non receiver into a firearm. Everything else is just assembling parts onto a gun.

05-08-2012, 12:00 AM	#12
WTSGDYBBR Veteran Member AKaholic #: 154838 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,702	Put it back in a kit format and give it away . ILL TAKE IT !!

05-12-2012, 09:55 PM	#14
KernelKrink Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 2036 Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 7,555	Buying and selling as a hobby is a bit different from manufacturing a gun for sale. Selling off your collection a piece or two at a time is a time honored tradition amongst owners and collectors. You only need a licencee involved if the transfer is out of state or state law prohibits "face to face private sales". Once you get into it for the purpose of making money ("engaged in the business"), it requires an FFL. At what point does this happen? ATF has no set rules, guidelines, or laws. They look at you and your activities, decide if they wanna bust you, and go from there. The last thing they wanna do is have it written down that you must sell "XX" guns per year to need a license. Kinda puts the crimp on their prosecution of the outlaw biker selling one Barrett .50 a month to his buddies. The legitimate collector doing the same thing with Mausers, they don't need the paperwork hassles. The guy selling 4 guns a week out of his garage? Better get the license. Manufacturing guns for sale or transfer requires a license. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/921 (10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/923 (a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. --------------------------------------------------------- ATF has held that the ONLY exemption from the license requirement for manufacturers are guns not made for sale or transfer, IOW "Personal Use" guns. If you can get a letter from them stating "hobby manufacture for the purpose of resale or distribution" is OK, go for it. It might help sway the Jury. The marking requirements are from a letter from ATF that states it's OK to sell a homemade firearm receiver gun as long as it wasn't made with that intent. They recognize that one may want to sell or otherwise transfer a gun they built at some later date. The letter states they must mark it in accordance with the CFR reg manufacturers must follow in regards to info and size/depth of characters used. http://www.gunco.net/forums/f54/inte...tter-atf-2737/ There has been some discussion on this as the law only sez "licensed manufacturers" must apply these markings, and we homebuilders aint licensed. I figger a few number and letter stamps is worth not having to fight it out in court. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....6.1.2&idno=27 a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

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