Here's an article on improving the terminal performance of 7.62x39mm ammo from www.tacticalgunfan.com

Improving the performance of 7.62x39mm ammo

In the old days match shooters called something similar Mexican Match, I call this Moscow Match.......

feel free to share any comments........

I'm all for anything which gets shooters started reloading,but what are we trying to accomplish?

If it's for self defence then..yeah.I've done that ...only with new boxer primed brass and soft points.although 154 gr sp commercial ammo will work as well

If it's for hunting...probably..tho see my self defence point

if it's for blasting/plinking...have you checked those bullet prices lately?

No offence,but it looks like a shill for the bullet manufacturing industry..who I'm already supporting

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Originally Posted by swabbie
I'm all for anything which gets shooters started reloading,but what are we trying to accomplish?

If it's for self defence then..yeah.I've done that ...only with new boxer primed brass and soft points.although 154 gr sp commercial ammo will work as well

If it's for hunting...probably..tho see my self defence point

if it's for blasting/plinking...have you checked those bullet prices lately?

No offence,but it looks like a shill for the bullet manufacturing industry..who I'm already supporting

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I'm not trying to start anything...what's with the tinfoil hat comments?

A person who had a quantity of FMJ? who would spend another $20 plus dollars/100 to improve the ballistics of of a marginal round?

It must have been a slow day in the gun industry and you must have gotten paid by the word

Since you're starting things

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I'm a reeeloadin,stogie smokin FOOOL

I AM NOT A RELOADER ... YET.

I keep promising myself I'll find the time ... but haven't yet.

I thought "mexican match loads" would help me "ease" in to the process.

anyoldways ....

I've read about this process.

Some of the arguements against it include the difficulty of getting the old rounds out of the brass ... without destroying the brass.

Some guys talk about varnish coatings ... others talk about a "seal" of something (I dunno ... maybe brown Permatex???) that is there for water proofing.

Other guys tell me that the investment of money and labor do not give enough of an increase in accuracy to make it worth while.

I dunno.

I keep saving my brass ... and will just learn to "do it the regular way" when I get time.

T

Like I said in my first post,ANY article or person who gets others started reloading is AOK in my book

Chiefy's points are on the mark

I'm not against the process...it's just not worth the effort for THAT cartridge..308,7.62x54,303 br,8mm mauser...absolutely

others as well.

substituting larger diameter cast boolits for FMJ factory fodder will bring out all of the accuracy that these old rifles are capable of(subject to careful powder weighing..of course).

__________________
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Originally Posted by swabbie
Like I said in my first post,ANY article or person who gets others started reloading is AOK in my book

Chiefy's points are on the mark

I'm not against the process...it's just not worth the effort for THAT cartridge..308,7.62x54,303 br,8mm mauser...absolutely

others as well.

substituting larger diameter cast boolits for FMJ factory fodder will bring out all of the accuracy that these old rifles are capable of(subject to careful powder weighing..of course).

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The idea has merit. Say a feller has an SKS or even a AK. He or one of his kids decide they want to use it to take a deer or a bear. Reloading the case with better powder and a quality hunting bullet may give him better results, than just using a wolf hp. I wouldn't consider the loads match quality but, I would think they would perform better on game. Having 50 or a 100 decent hunting loads for your SKS might be nice.

Skeeter!

it takes the same equipment to pull, reinstall the powder, and seat and crimp the bullet..regardless of whether you re use the berdan primed original case or use some new boxer primed brass

For hunting....possibly..many in my neck of the woods use the SKS with either 154 gr SP or new factory SP loads

As to terminal performance for self defense...you would know better than I the follies of loading your own defensive ammunition.I'm the best reloader I know , and even I abandoned reloading any defensive ammo years ago.

SHTF scenarios being the exception....

Not trying to be deliberately obtuse...I'll probably never understand.Perhaps someone who actually wants to perform this will chime in and educate me further

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I'm a reeeloadin,stogie smokin FOOOL

If I remember correctly ... Two Bit had some information/comments on this subject a while back.

Maybe he will add some info/opinion if he gets a chance.


In the time I know them, Two Bit and Swabbie have ALWAYS been willing to take a look ... or discuss a new idea ... without gettin' all puffy about it.

Because of that, they both number among the 5 or 6 "fire arm" people I know I can count on for the right poop.

T

Valid idea... I do it myself. Re loadable brass is expensive... especially my stockpile of Lapua So I pull, Dump, re charge and set better bullets in Milsurp... Works great for me and I don't have to look for my brass, which is often Impossible to find.

Someone will see merit in just about every idea that springs forth from the mind of man

Glad to hear that someone is benefitting from these tips

so what is it that you improve by doing this Ace?..tighter groups,better holes in targets,deader 2 litr soda bottles?

of course, being able to let your brass lie is valuable

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I'm a reeeloadin,stogie smokin FOOOL

If it can hit at a 100 yds like a .38 at point blank range its good enough.

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Originally Posted by swabbie
Someone will see merit in just about every idea that springs forth from the mind of man

Glad to hear that someone is benefitting from these tips

so what is it that you improve by doing this Ace?..tighter groups,better holes in targets,deader 2 litr soda bottles?

of course, being able to let your brass lie is valuable

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Don't do mag dumps, or anything else for that matter..to impress my buddies

I'll keep my milsurp FMJ for future scenarios and continue to shoot my cast AA1680 loads for most everything else.

It's still not self explanatory to me, and if I do splurge on bullets from major manufacturers, I sure won't be using them in an (at best) 2.5 MOA 16 " barrel
semi auto action with an at best marginal trigger assembly

I'm probably just too cheap..yeah that's it

Moving this thread to the ignore category, but thanks for trying

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I dunno who you are, or what crawled up your ass.... but there is more than one way to skin a cat... Just because you do it a dif way does not make it wrong.... or shooting Lead in a gas gun Right... Grow up

Good article Gunwritr I always like to read other peoples ideas even though I have been there and do that. Being on a tight budget and finding myself unemployed plus the handloader in me coming out the Mexican Match idea is something I do out of necessity on occasion I have a good supply of brass case FMJ 54r ammo that I convert to hunting ammo using various SP bullets and they work great.

As far as the X39 ammo goes I converted a couple old boxes of the Wolf BB over to SP and V-MAX a couple years ago just for kicks,it's kinda dirty ammo using the Russian powder,shot better but I just load my own now in either boxer primed brass cases or the Lapua Wooden bullet blank case I convert to hunting or SHTF ammo. The Lapuas are Berdan primed so no loss if I loose one and I have a ton of those.

I've been loading the Hornady 123 gr. V-MAX .310 dia bullet for my SKS rifles for a couple years the bullet has been available to reloaders,I guess with the mad ammo rush gong on Hornady is just now getting around to producing the factory steel case stuff for commercial sale.

Here are a couple of my various X39 loading I have a few more I'm working on.

Swabbie wrote: "it takes the same equipment to pull, reinstall the powder, and seat and crimp the bullet..regardless of whether you re use the berdan primed original case or use some new boxer primed brass"


I totally agree it does take the same equipment and effort. I would prefer to use new boxer primed brass and I do.

I was just thinking it might be handy for the person on a real tight budget. A guy that has a batch of steel case FMJ and wanted just a handful of hunting rounds for occasional use. I realize its not much of a savings and without a doubt using good boxer primed brass would be the way to go. However it is an option for folks that might need it.

Skeeter!

ITS A FREAKING AK!!!!

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Originally Posted by swabbie
It must have been a slow day in the gun industry and you must have gotten paid by the word

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GP Wrote: "I've built AKs on Romy G kits that shoot sub-moa with handloaded ammo."


After hearing this I am curious to see what my polish under folder can do with good handloads.

Skeeter!

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Originally Posted by gunplumber
+1.

He did get right the "AK shooters tend to be the cheapest SOBs on the planet"

But I guess there is always someone looking for a half-ass way to pretend they're getting something they're not.

I've built AKs on Romy G kits that shoot sub-moa with handloaded ammo. Why anyone would want to do a half-ass "partial" job, escapes me. How many additional steps to get a true match loading on a reloadable case? None if you buy primed brass, one if you don't.

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First of all, people been doin this for years...BFD! You actually get paid to write about this shit?

Second, back the fuck off of Swabbie, he has helped more people here with "real help" than most, and he doesn't deserve your arrogant "tin foil" bullshit!

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NO QUARTER, NO MERCY!!!

Swa Be Da Man !

I don't dispute that during the 1960s, people would pull the fmj .30-06 bullet from GI surplus ammo and replace it with a softpoint or other bullet they deem "better." Some enterprising folks even mounted the bulolet backwards under the impression it would be more lethal. Whatever. Old news.

It seems silly to me to do a half-ass job when doing a complete job only takes a little more effort.

You say "terminal ballistics". Well that sure is convenient because its the one thing that cannot be readily quantified. But terminal ballistics are irrelevant if you can't hit the target, and accuracy is something we can quantify. Of course, that would require scholarly research, rather than cut & paste.

Maybe as a start, 10x 10 round groups of each brand of ammo (or maybe 12 round groups and throw out the worst 2 rounds), followed by 10x 10 round groups of the same ammo with the only change being replacing the bullet. While 10 groups is not a statistically significant sampling, if you do it with 5 types of ammo, you should be able to see a pattern developing. Of course, that would be 1000 rounds you didn't get free from someone wanting you to pimp their products. Ahh, the cost of real research!

Then shoot 10x 10 round groups with norma cases, Vihtavuori powder and the sierra matchbullet and see if the result is any different.

In order to mount the new bullet at a consistent depth, one needs to have a reloading press of some type. And either a collet type or kenetic bullet puller (which spills the powder).

So you are reassembling a cartridge anyway using a reloading press, with a new bullet. But the powder is cheaper than the bullet and arguably more inconsistent in the loading than the bullet - so why not replace that too? Heck, if you spilled even a grain it will have a measurable difference.

So you have the press, the powder and the bullet - and I am sure that will make a significant accuracy difference. But I think another 10x 10 round groups on a new case will show a statistically significant improvement. Only after quantifying the improvement will people be able to make the decision on the cost effectiveness. Some will figure the cost of the case isn't worth a 10% improvement, but is worth an 80% improvement. Some don't give a damn for any improvement past their ability to shoot. A 1 MOA gun with a 4 MOA shooter is now a 4 MOA gun.

Then you'd be able to say "based on my limited statistical sampling, changing bullet only shifted median group size by x%, changing bullet and powder, by x percent, and bullet, powder, and case by x%.

I believe that's what Hornaday is doing with their loads - just a new bullet and powder on a Russian primed case and some care in the powder measure and bullet seating.

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Originally Posted by fullautotogo
Back the fuck off of Swabbie, he has helped more people here with "real help" than most, and he doesn't deserve your arrogant "tin foil" bullshit!

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In the interest of full disclosure, I will note here that swabbie is my dad, so I'm a bit biased. I will say that he has introduced more people to shooting & reloading than probably anyone here. Under his tenure as club director, the USPSA club in his area at least quadrupled in size, and the state championship became an attention getter. Many of the people here have learned from his successes (and mistakes - The drilling out/deactivating tracers incident...need I say more?) and benefited from his generosity.

That said, if gunwritr is who I think he is, first I'll have to say I've read a great many articles of his which were very interesting and well written. So props for having a pretty cool gig. I dug the Project Longbow.

Although I see his point in attempting to improve the "terminal ballistics" of the 7.69x39 by adding a higher quality bullet in place of a FMJ, I'd have to say that creating a "communist match" round makes several large assumptions about the individual it would benefit.

First, it assumes that the reader either has all the reloading equipment and various associated gadgets he needs to pull this off (including the appropriate dies, perhaps substitutions can be made, I don't know) or a friend who has all of it and won't talk him out of reloading commy rounds.

Second, it assumes that a person with all that reloading equipment is too cheap to have a deer rifle in a more commonly available, factory-loaded hunting caliber. (and yes, I know 7.62x39 is ballistically similar to 30-30, which kills all kinda deer every year.)

Third, it's adding window dressings to a haunted house, lipstick to a pig or photographing John Kerry with a shotgun and blaze orange hat. It's a waste of time. I've heard they make a supercharger for my Toyota pickup with the itty-bitty inline 4 banger, but it costs as much as the truck does and would give me a marginal performance increase in a vehicle that was never designed for it.

So the short answer is yes, you CAN but WHY?

All my opinions aside, I agree that anything that gets someone into reloading what will surely become the new currency, including this idea, is "A-OK" in my book too.

Let the flaming continue...

I, Like swabbie, dont see the point. There is no savings or advantage involved in this process And I can prove it.

Wolf ammo is about .23 a round at its cheapest right now. You pull the bullet, and replace it with a premium bullet which will cost .20 to .30 cents around. This assumes that you use the same powder charge but if not, your looking to about .10 to .14 per round for powder. So you are looking at .53 to .63 cents a round, then when your done shooting it you are left with a unreloadable steel case(at least not easily reloaded) and a pulled bullet.

If you buy brass you will spend .30 each ONE TIME. Add.10 to .14 for powder, .3 for a primer, and .20 to .30 for a bullet and the first reload costs you ..63 to .77 cents a round assuming you never reload those cases again.

However from personal experience, I know that you can get at least 5 loadings after the initial load from each piece of brass if you take care of it, about 3 if you dont. Divide the cost of the brass over 3 to 5 loadings over the initial load you get .43 to .55 cents a round, depending on components and number of times reloaded and in reallity probably cheaper than that as I fudged the prices on the high side of things so Mr. Fortier couldnt claim I lowballed him.

Dont even get me started with the savings of shooting cast bullets, or plain old regular non "boutiqe bullets", guns show deals, etc. Me and swabbie have played with these things more than you care to know and could leave you dizzy.

I agree with the "why bother" posters... What do you do with the Pulled bullet? Toss it? No, you have reloading tools so you reload it into a nice new brass case. Then you have a so-so hunting load and a crappy pulled GI bullet in the new case.

If you want "deadly" AK ammo, buy a box of Remington/Federal/Winchester soft points or reload your own on new brass.

Those guys making "Mexican Match" in the good ole days were most all getting their ammo FOR FREE. That is such an andvantage that most today just don't have.

Here I thought I was the only one crazy enough to reload steel cases from China! I hydroed them out and seated a new Berdan primer, this was almiost twenty years ago and boxer cases were rare or pricey, just couldn't stand loseing them when hunting, the loss of a steel case was no big deal, durn copper washed cases rusted in nothing flat anyway. Prolly loaded 40 all told.

Don't know bout "Mexican Match" but do know what a Mexican Standoff is....