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Old 11-20-2012, 01:13 AM   #1
Eazy513
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Default Headspace ?

When you headspace your ak do u want the headspace to be real tight, or on the looser side?
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:49 AM   #2
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You want it tight. Perfect headspace is when it takes some force to close on a go- gauge. I've even had them so tight that they will not close on the go but still operate 100%. those are my best builds.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:05 AM   #3
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That's because it pushed the barrel out and up when u fire it after u headspace so u want it tight correct
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:23 AM   #4
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On mine, I force the barrel out and up against the pin (using the press) before I fine tune the bolt. That way there is no chance of the barrel moving after it is fired. If you are willing to spend the extra time on them you can get a very good accurate rifle. On a few I even lap the lugs with valve grinding compound.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:51 AM   #5
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You want it tight. Perfect headspace is when it takes some force to close on a go- gauge. I've even had them so tight that they will not close on the go but still operate 100%. those are my best builds.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I've seen a few KB's on AK's and other rifles due to too tight of a headspace. Gauges are made for a reason and to set headspace outside of their tolerances is not a smart practice.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:16 PM   #6
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If proper procedures are followed (reaming the pin bore) to size to providing the correct interference fit (pin to bore) there will be NO movement of the barrel afterwards. You must also consider the trunnion to barrel interference fit. Builders that use a drill bit to size the pin bore are setting the firearm up to suffer from head space issues later down the road. A drill bit will not produce a concentric round bore.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:17 PM   #7
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I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I've seen a few KB's on AK's and other rifles due to too tight of a headspace. Gauges are made for a reason and to set headspace outside of their tolerances is not a smart practice.
It's impossible for a healthy AK with too tight of headspace to KB. The only possible way for them to come apart due to headspace is with "excessive" headspace. If the headspace is too tight, the round does not allow the Bolt to lock. If the bolt is not locked, there is no way possible for the hammer to strike the firing pin. The AK is designed this way intentionally to prevent an out of battery. If one did go off on you, it was caused by a FUBAR bolt carrier and would have eventually kB'd regardless of your headspace.
I have a magazine of dummy rounds that I have created using several different manufacturers of ammo. If it closes without resistance on the rounds in that magazine than it is GTG regardless of what the Go says. Also, only about 70% of the NOS barreled kits I assembled from Romy G kits would close on a Go. So it's not just me that knows the value of tight headspace.

Last edited by Blacksmith; 11-20-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:21 PM   #8
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If proper procedures are followed (reaming the pin bore) to size to providing the correct interference fit (pin to bore) there will be NO movement of the barrel afterwards.
Bullshit.
Even the best of factory builds have a slight amount of movement. If you do not believe me, take your best factory build, stand it up on its crown and hit the butt stock with a rubber mallet. that will effectively and temporarily close the Headspace. It will however correct itself when the first round is fired.

Last edited by Blacksmith; 11-20-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:51 PM   #9
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Really? you have a poor example of a "Best factory build" rifle if you can perform that test and have the head space change any significant amount. You may change the head space by exerting pressure (tons) to the barrel-trunnion connection only to have the metal yield. The barrel is not as hard as one would think @ the pin area.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:11 PM   #10
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Really? you have a poor example of a "Best factory build" rifle if you can perform that test and have the head space change any significant amount. You may change the head space by exerting pressure (tons) to the barrel-trunnion connection only to have the metal yield. The barrel is not as hard as one would think @ the pin area.
I don't have any factory builds my friend. I am just simply giving you a way to understand the fact that when you assemble 3 parts together using a press fit, there can and will be movement. I don't care how good of a machinist you are, or how good your equipment is. You can't change the fact that steel is flexible.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:11 PM   #11
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I use a 1/4 end mill followed by a 7mm reamer I might switch to a smaller decimal size reamer for a tighter fit. I just drilled and pin my Egyptian kit bout to do my amd65. So u just use a barrel push tool and press it slightly out? I'll have to try it and see what movement I got
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:13 PM   #12
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Bullshit.
Even the best of factory builds have a slight amount of movement. If you do not believe me, take your best factory build, stand it up on its crown and hit the butt stock with a rubber mallet. that will effectively and temporarily close the Headspace. It will however correct itself when the first round is fired.
Could you explain how this is possible? I dont understand. For example. If I were to use a .300 reamer to make a larger barrel pin hole and press a .302 barrel pin into the barrel pin hole, how would the barrel be able to move?
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:39 PM   #13
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I use a 1/4 end mill followed by a 7mm reamer I might switch to a smaller decimal size reamer for a tighter fit. I just drilled and pin my Egyptian kit bout to do my amd65. So u just use a barrel push tool and press it slightly out? I'll have to try it and see what movement I got
Yes Sir. That gives you the same results as test firing without taking it to the range. I also always recommend that after removing the pin and barrel to install the receiver, it is a very good idea to make sure on re-assembly, that the barrel is pushed slightly in to far before you reinstall the pin. It is possible for the hardened pin to shave a slight amount of steel off the channel. And if that steel is removed from the back of the channel, the headspace is now excessive. If it is removed from the front of the channel, it does not affect anything whatsoever.
And a big thumbs up to the Rforbus barrel press tool. I have a bar I use to do the same thing. But the one he makes in the Cadillac of barrel press out tools.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:42 PM   #14
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Could you explain how this is possible? I dont understand. For example. If I were to use a .300 reamer to make a larger barrel pin hole and press a .302 barrel pin into the barrel pin hole, how would the barrel be able to move?
I've already explained it the best I can. You might try a search. or just pick it up like I did from experience doing a lot of builds and repairs.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:08 PM   #15
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Ya I had to get his tools, they really come in handy
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:15 PM   #16
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Ya I had to get his tools, they really come in handy
I bought his barrel assembly tool and it is top notch. I plan on replacing my old steel rod with his barrel press out tool as well. But all my hobby money is going into parts and kits right now.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:42 PM   #17
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Ya I have both the barrel push in/out tools, and was thinking about is 3mm and 4 mm dowel pins to push those stubborn pins out of demilled kits.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:10 PM   #18
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I've never checked mine.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:36 PM   #19
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I've never checked mine.
Probably never checked to make sure your air bag is going to work either.

But you are betting your life or the lives of those you take for a ride hoping someone at some point did
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:50 PM   #20
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Could you explain how this is possible? I dont understand. , how would the barrel be able to move?
Effectively it can't.

If your interferance fit is off, your barrel to trunion fit is loose you have tooling issues or indicate the hole incorrectly. Then there could be some movement.

Theoretically, there is no such thing as a solid. Everything has some movement. The more you work with 'solids' like steel, alumin etc the more you see just how unstable they are.

For this level of building I'm unconvinced it's time well spent and if you don't know what your doing you can 'manufacture' damage where there would have been none.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:02 PM   #21
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I always headspace mine on the tighter end so when and if the barrel does slip out it will still be OK. Even though I always headspace it about .002-.003" larger then the ammo I have on hand.

I know that if you have your headspace too tight it will cause extraction issues and cause feeding problems with dirty conditions. USGI M14 rifles were always headspaced .004" longer that 308 sammi specs to allow room for dirt and crud.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:37 AM   #22
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You can argue tight or Loose but setup mine on the slight lose end so I know it's slightly out of the guage so I know it locks up. I try to keep it about a .005 to 009 from not locking up..even drilling out the pin cuses it to move slightly no matter how much you clamp it down..I had one I actualy ad to tac weld the barrel then drill and pin and grind off the weld after to keep it still..now it's my actual shooter I use all the time.. Has not moved at all...
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:20 AM   #23
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Not sure I'm ready it right so I'll just make the statement.

On most all rifle size gauges, the difference between a go gauge (which should allow most all ammo to feed dispite the manufacturing tolerance) and a field gauge which is the standard (unsafe to shoot) is right at .008

For referance the thickness of most normal hair is about .002
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:30 AM   #24
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Really? you have a poor example of a "Best factory build" rifle if you can perform that test and have the head space change any significant amount. You may change the head space by exerting pressure (tons) to the barrel-trunnion connection only to have the metal yield. The barrel is not as hard as one would think @ the pin area.
people are so arrogant..... every factory original i have ever tested with my guages have been so tight that they would not close on a go gauge, therefore i have made all my builds nice and tight. as blacksmith said, you want to exert pressure on the barrel outward after pushing pin in, everytime the firearm is shot there is tons of pressure pushing the barrel outward.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:01 AM   #25
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I've come into this late, and and someone who's never installed a barrel I can't add any advice. I do have some questions that may benefit others in my situation.

I can accept the idea of pushing the barrel before firing, I understand that the metals we're dealing with aren't as solid or immovable as they appear to the eye. In my line of work something similar is often done with bearings and we call it pre-loading, so this makes sense.

Here's where my newby inexperience come in. What worries me is pushing the barrel so much that I change that just established proper headspace. I assume that if the headspace was correct, nice and tight on the go gauge when i drill for the pin, then pushing the barrel won't change the headspace enough to cause problems. With this established, is there some way to know how much to push on the barrel when I do this?
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:42 AM   #26
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It does not take much force to seat the barrel up against the pin. And whatever it does move, it will move that much regardless of rather you move it with a press or by firing the weapon. If you are using a NOS bolt that has never been installed in a rifle, you have a lot of room on the lugs for fitting it. So it is real easy to put a dummy round in it and set your initial headspace with it. At this point it will be way too tight to function. But it will give you room to fine tune the bolt lugs after you seat the barrel. This makes it possible to set the headspace exactly where you want it without any guess work whatsoever. It also insures that after the rifle has fired thousands of rounds and the lugs have worn in to the point the headspace is becoming excessive, that you can take another NOS bolt and correct it. In the case of a used bolt, you have to take into consideration how long the lugs are. And if it is a matching # bolt and trunion, you also have to take into account that the lugs have already warn in to a perfect match to the trunion. It has basically lapped itself into a perfect fit. On those I drop in the go gauge and carefully press the barrel down until the gauge no longer wiggles. I then mill the hole with a 1/4 inch end mill keeping the mill closer to the front of the hole. This leaves the reamer more material to remove on the rear of the channel rather than on the front of the channel. That insures that if the barrel does move slightly during the reaming process, it will move towards the back and not the front. The logic here is that if it moves forward, the headspace is now excessive. If it moves back, it can be corrected by lapping the lugs.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:04 AM   #27
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I have never pressed the barrel into the pin but, I do set headspace so that it takes about 30# to fully close on a GO gauge. I read to do this somewhere along time ago and have been doing it ever since. It should still close easily on a live round.

I saw a guy in Poland(FA Radom Video) doing this too, though I don't know how many # they are setting them at.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:31 AM   #28
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Thanks Blacksmith. What I'm dealing with is a mismatched bolt and trunnion, and a brand new barrel. One of the kits that AK47Parts selling here in the marketplace, if you're familiar with them.

I don't have a any dummy rounds, so my plan was to use just the gauges to set the headspace. Just about anything I have read says set the headspace tight on the go gauge, even to the point that the bolt won't quite close, but will close on a live round, no firing pin in the bolt of course. After that I will give the barrel a push from the breech end. That's my plan. I like the idea of milling the hole towards the front of the trunnion, and am using the same tools, 1/4" end mill and 7mm reamer to drill the hole.

Honestly I've never lapped bolt lugs and didn't intend to here. Unless the barrel does get moved back during drilling, then i guess I'll be learning how. I'm not doubting your method. I've read a lot of your posts and appreciate any info from you and feel lucky to get it. I'm just laying out what I was going to do, and what my experience, (or lack of) is.

Sound reasonable?

RF57 thaks for you input as well, your post wasnt up when I started my snail speed typing. How to measure the force used to close the bolt, just use a gauge pulling on the bolt handle, similar to measuring trigger pull?

Last edited by BrianJ; 11-23-2012 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:07 AM   #29
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Thanks Blacksmith. What I'm dealing with is a mismatched bolt and trunnion, and a brand new barrel. One of the kits that AK47Parts selling here in the marketplace, if you're familiar with them.

I don't have a any dummy rounds, so my plan was to use just the gauges to set the headspace. Just about anything I have read says set the headspace tight on the go gauge, even to the point that the bolt won't quite close, but will close on a live round, no firing pin in the bolt of course. After that I will give the barrel a push from the breech end. That's my plan. I like the idea of milling the hole towards the front of the trunnion, and am using the same tools, 1/4" end mill and 7mm reamer to drill the hole.

Honestly I've never lapped bolt lugs and didn't intend to here. Unless the barrel does get moved back during drilling, then i guess I'll be learning how. I'm not doubting your method. I've read a lot of your posts and appreciate any info from you and feel lucky to get it. I'm just laying out what I was going to do, and what my experience, (or lack of) is.

Sound reasonable?
It should work just fine. You got to realize that fine tuning the bolt just makes it the best rifle it can be. It does improve the accuracy as well as the longevity of the weapon. Even using a miss matched bolt like you are doing, the trunion and bolt will eventually (after x amount of rounds) Lapp themselves together. If you do it from the start, it just speeds up the process and removes any guess work. Just keep it as tight as you feel comfortable with. When it is all said and done, the only way one is unsafe is if it will close on a field gauge. And that is the important thing.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:36 AM   #30
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It should work just fine. You got to realize that fine tuning the bolt just makes it the best rifle it can be. It does improve the accuracy as well as the longevity of the weapon. Even using a miss matched bolt like you are doing, the trunion and bolt will eventually (after x amount of rounds) Lapp themselves together. If you do it from the start, it just speeds up the process and removes any guess work. Just keep it as tight as you feel comfortable with. When it is all said and done, the only way one is unsafe is if it will close on a field gauge. And that is the important thing.

Exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you sir.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:08 AM   #31
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I have 2 new Bulgarian AK74 kits to build. Neither bolt will close on the Go Gauge. It will take some force to get them to close and that's from the factory with the original barrel stubs still in place. Can anyone explain this?
I don't mean to hi jack this thread but I thought the question fits in.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:43 AM   #32
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I have 2 new Bulgarian AK74 kits to build. Neither bolt will close on the Go Gauge. It will take some force to get them to close and that's from the factory with the original barrel stubs still in place. Can anyone explain this?
I don't mean to hi jack this thread but I thought the question fits in.
I have the the same issue w/2 AK74's also. Will not even come close to closing on go but will chamber a 76n nicely. I contacted the guage mfg'r but he did not respond to my inquiry!

I've measured 4 factory 7.62 rifles. 2 factory chi com's close easily on go 1 Romy closes easily on go and 1 Romy will not close on go! Talk about crazy. I just want it right.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:27 AM   #33
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RF57 thaks for you input as well, your post wasnt up when I started my snail speed typing. How to measure the force used to close the bolt, just use a gauge pulling on the bolt handle, similar to measuring trigger pull?
That's how I do it. I have been looking for a better gauge or scale set up but for now I just use a fish scale.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:07 AM   #34
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akma, i have had the same experiences with new and old rifles, the kit just buillt was a safe queen aks74 all new with matching bayo and it appears unfired. i check with go and it wont close at all. most of my experiences are exactly thesame. I just make them just as tight on install...
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:18 AM   #35
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Let me start off by saying hello. This is my first post here and let me just say that this thread has been very helpful. I am beginning my first build using a virgin barrel so I need to learn a lot on head-spacing. After reading this I checked out my wasr 10 that is already together with different ammo (with the firing pin removed). this rifle has proven to be accurate. The bolt would only close on about 2 out of 5 different types of ammo. so I now have a good idea of what the head-space should be on the romy g kit that I am getting ready to build. thank you to everyone here.
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