Iron Clad milled US made PSL

[Porsche914ls6]

Anyone have any dealings with Iron Clad Armory in GA? I talked with the owner for about an hour on the phone 2 weeks ago and it sounds like he is gearing up to make a milled reciever and a custom barrel to use with PSL kits. It sounds like there are many improvements to the barrel design namely a four groove design with a slower twist rate. He says his prototype knocks the socks off an original PSL in performance & accuracy. He also mentioned that he will offer a US made Draganov replica next year. Oh but wait there's more... he mentioned that he has a mag company making new polymer mags and is considering a 20 round mag in the future and maybe even a bull barrel. This all sounds promising.

[Bolt2bounce]

That sounds great.. I hope he get's all that done.. a 20 rd magazine would be a huge improvement.. the milled receiver not so much..as the sheet metal receiver works fine.. and it would be expensive to make.. b2b

[arcom]

Competition for Black Horse Arsenal? Whaddaya think, Gorby?

That said, after many many years of collecting and shooting, I'm guessing less than 25% of the "new gun" proposals came to fruition.

20 round mags would be nice. Certainly would be a boost to TAPCO what with all those PSLs going 922r compliant.

[Porsche914ls6]

I'm familiar with the debate about how useful a 20 round mag is on a stock PSL and those that don't see a need for one have a good argument. I however will be building a bull barreled PSL and a larger mag would be a nice addition to such a machine. Also, if a new polymer mag is as cheap as Iron Clad says it will be...I'm in for a dozen of em. He said they sell for around $20 if I remember correctly. Good PSL mags are somewhat rare...they come and go and as we all know they may dry up. I'll call him again and get more info and try to order some parts & mags. I'll keep you all posted.

[Gorbachov]

Originally Posted by arcom

Competition for Black Horse Arsenal? Whaddaya think, Gorby? That said, after many many years of collecting and shooting, I'm guessing less than 25% of the "new gun" proposals came to fruition.

Having been in product and market development for over 40 years, I learned a long time ago that competition isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've found in many cases that the positives outweigh the negatives for a manufacture that takes a lot of pride in what they do, and wants his customers to have the very best. It forces us all to make better product to stay on the leading edge of the market. It also requires a working knowledge of "Lean Manufacturing" principles, which impacts decreasing of costs, increased throughput, improved quality, better on-time delivery results and increased customer satisfaction. This background, plus having an understanding of what a "Continuous Improvement Program" is would make for good competition.

The one thing I'd question, is if it's truly and SVD knock off with 100% US made SVD parts that are interchangeable with the original Russian Dragunov from Izhmash, or is it a PSL with a milled receiver and heavy barrel. There are lots of folks out there that make some modifications to the PSL, or Vepr and call it a Dragunov. The SVD is not built on a Kalashnikov platform and there is a world of difference, from the gas system, fire control, etc. About the only similarities is they are both DMRs and fire the 7.62 X 54r round.

The other issue is money. We invested over $1million in a 4 - 6 month period in early 2009 to build a weapons manufacturing facility capable of turning out 200 to 250 assault rifles per shift per day. So unless someone has the assets to build a facility to go into producing a US made SVD, I think it's nothing but wishful thinking. It's not just the manufacturing capabilities required though; one also has to have the experience and ability to market them and it's rare you find someone in a start up situation that has experience in both product and market development. I hope they are successful in pulling it off and look forward to the friendly comradery with someone who shares the same passion we do.

[auditech10]

Originally Posted by Gorbachov

capable of turning out 200 to 250 assault rifles per shift per day

What rifles do you have to offer? I have gone to your website and see "There are no products matching the selection." on the Rifles page.
What am I missing?

[Gorbachov]

This post http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=25 is supposed to let people know the website isn't quite ready for primetime, and there are several sections that aren't finished yet, particularly the Black Horse product manufactured offerings. When it does go live every section will have product offerings. If you keep an eye on the sight or watch for announcements in the AK Files that it's live, that section will have multiple firearms selections. Any other "Category" you see with that disclaimer will also be fully stocked at that time.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by Gorbachov

This post http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=25 is supposed to let people know the website isn't quite ready for primetime, and there are several sections that aren't finished yet, particularly the Black Horse product manufactured offerings. When it does go live every section will have product offerings.

I manage a website for a non-profit organization and I've found that it's much better to place notices (of incompletion) directly on the page so that the viewer (no matter how they navigated & arrived) will know that the content that they expect is still forthcoming.

Offering an estimated date of "going live" can and does keep viewers and potential customers interested and checking back for progress.

I'm in no way attempting to be critical of your company's web endeavors - just passing along things I've learned in providing those very same services to my clients.

[Gorbachov]

The entire website is incomplete...that's why it's not live yet!!! We've been asked so often how it's coming we decided to give folks a small peek of some of what they'll find when it does go live. If it's confusing and people think these unfinished sections are what they're going to see when it's done I can certianly delete all the posts that make reference to the URL. We thought thought the placement of this notice in the original post made that prety clear. I WANT TO REPEAT, THIS SITE CANNOT PROCESS ORDERS YET!!! It should have also been pretty evident when I said in my last post "If you keep an eye on the sight or watch for announcements in the AK Files that it's live, that section will have multiple firearms selections. Any other "Category" you see with that disclaimer will also be fully stocked at that time".

[pmr1010]

Hmmm...

[Rollthelosingdice]

I don't know about you guys and those veprs. I'm still working on turning my PSL to a cold war SVD look.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by Gorbachov

We thought thought the placement of this notice in the original post made that prety clear. I WANT TO REPEAT, THIS SITE CANNOT PROCESS ORDERS YET!!! It should have also been pretty evident when I said in my last post "If you keep an eye on the sight or watch for announcements in the AK Files that it's live, that section will have multiple firearms selections. Any other "Category" you see with that disclaimer will also be fully stocked at that time".

The reason I was so confused is that I didn't read the post where it was mentioned the site wasn't live until well after browsing the actual website.

So, my point was that by putting the notice directly on your website (instead of in a post that may or may not be seen) would keep you from having to keep repeating the information...

Problem solved right there.

Just think of how many people Google (or use another search engine) into your site that have never read any of your posts here. Without knowing what's been said here - they simply turn into potential customers that are lost. Again - I'm not taking the time to post this in an effort to criticize. To the contrary, I'm trying to help you so that you can devote your time to making the gun parts you want to sell instead of having to re-address the questions about your website.

[Tomfoolery]

Coming from someone with a ton of die work getting into a die which will stamp out clean 20 rounders is EXPENSIVE. Almost be cheaper to make up an injection mold. A reliable T&D machinist is $30 and hour to start and you'll want him sleeping next to that thing for the first 10000 presses.

Rather then a milled PSL I would like someone besides AWO to make a M76 in another caliber. I'm not going to be shooting 308 anytime this century so their conversion would never work out.

Best of luck to BHA and whoever is making these "new" PSLs though. I love to see new companies trying their hand in a developed market.

[OC_]

I like my PSL, but I'm kinda amazed that someone loves it so much that they want to make a new one. Some how I feel that its going to cost a fortune.

The one thing I don't like about the PSL is that its chambered in 54r. Its a fine round, but its really disappointing that there is no competition grade bullets like the SMK available in the 150gr range. Also, reloadable brass is very expensive and rare.

But if someone is going to make a new, super psl. I hope they have different options for barrels. I wouldn't mind having a PSL chambered for 54r with a 308 diameter barrel, or even a 308 psl. That way I could load/shoot all the fancy and nice 308 bullets on market accurately. I would save the .311 bullets for my Cugir psl...

[Tomfoolery]

That rifle already exists. There are a number of 308 PSLs on the market. Now you have AWO making the M76 in 308 & 30-06.

[AKBLUE]

Originally Posted by Tomfoolery

That rifle already exists. There are a number of 308 PSLs on the market. Now you have AWO making the M76 in 308 & 30-06.

+1 and better ergo's and more stable than a PSL. Bore centered optics, heavier barrel, milled receiver, high capacity mag availability, adjustable gas valve.
Very nice rifles indeed are the M76 models.

[sean michael]

PSL's are not required to meet 922r compliance. Imported as "sporting" rifles. I've never understood why folks feel compelled to build them that way. Fear?

[AKBLUE]

Originally Posted by sean michael

PSL's are not required to meet 922r compliance. Imported as "sporting" rifles. I've never understood why folks feel compelled to build them that way. Fear?

Huh?

[Gorbachov]

Originally Posted by sean michael

PSL's are not required to meet 922r compliance. Imported as "sporting" rifles. I've never understood why folks feel compelled to build them that way. Fear?

PSLs are required to meet 922r compliancy if you put one of the evil parts on them, say for example an SVD flash hider. If you do this you've changed it from it's original configuration as an imported hunting sporting rifle. You are then required to bring the rest of the gun compliant by changing out the correct numbers of imported parts versus US made parts.

[sean michael]

Originally Posted by Gorbachov

PSLs are required to meet 922r compliancy if you put one of the evil parts on them, say for example an SVD flash hider. If you do this you've changed it from it's original configuration as an imported hunting sporting rifle. You are then required to bring the rest of the gun compliant by changing out the correct numbers of imported parts and US made parts.

Yep, IF you do. Never designed as anything but semi auto and ten round mag max.

[sean michael]

By the way Gorbachov. Much respect to you, especially in this area. What you say goes on this subject in my book boss.

[Gorbachov]

Originally Posted by sean michael

By the way Gorbachov. Much respect to you, especially in this area. What you say goes on this subject in my book boss.

I'd be careful on that one!!! It wasn't more than 4 months ago I didn't know this, and if you'd asked me I'd have given you bad information. This thread became affectionately called the "death and dismemberment flash hider thread" in other parts of the forum. http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107006 It got so abusive I abandon it for good 3 or 4 times only to come back again to get beat up some more. It was a great education though and I'm very clear on it today, thanks to other guys in this forum who know a whole lot more than I do!

[sean michael]

Thanks to all you guys for hashing this out. Great forum here. Thanks Gorbachov for submitting the link to that long discussion, saving me the trouble of having to start it again here. Love PSL's and I'll be buying some stuff from you soon too.

[10781618]

I think these rifles will be too expensive. He would have to make sure he could get them in buyers hands for under $1500. I like the PSL and SVD, but when a rifle gets up to around the $1000 mark, I prefer a 308 AR. I just don't see this happening. Even Gabe "the clown" Suarez kicked around the idea a while back (I saw a thread he started looking for interest).

In fact, if he is going to build a new SVD or PSL and has a company making 20 round magazines, he needs to chamber them in 7.62 NATO. I like the price of the x54r, but I would want the option of being able to easily find soft point and ballistic tip ammo.

[10781618]

I just went to their website. I wasn't too impressed. They don't offer many products for sale and they only offer parkerizing and duracoating for services. WTF do they do? Under their custom section, they modified some stocks on a couple rifles? I was excited to see they were 4 hours from me, but I wasn't too impressed with what they offered.

[Lenin]

I don't know if I would trust a company with zero details on custom machining experience to make an item that contains an explosion near my face and neck.

[Gorbachov]

Originally Posted by Slick

The reason I was so confused is that I didn't read the post where it was mentioned the site wasn't live until well after browsing the actual website.

So, my point was that by putting the notice directly on your website (instead of in a post that may or may not be seen) would keep you from having to keep repeating the information...

Problem solved right there.

Just think of how many people Google (or use another search engine) into your site that have never read any of your posts here. Without knowing what's been said here - they simply turn into potential customers that are lost. Again - I'm not taking the time to post this in an effort to criticize. To the contrary, I'm trying to help you so that you can devote your time to making the gun parts you want to sell instead of having to re-address the questions about your website.

Slick,

I apologize if I sounded frustrated in my earlier responses to you. You've always gone out of your way every time a link has been posted about Black Horse Arsenal's website endeavors to offer constructive and corrective suggestions. For someone like you that does this for a living believe me I listen. You've given us input over the last 10 months on both our new none released e-commerce site at http://blackhorsearsenal.gostorego.com/ and our beta site at www.blackhorsearsenal.com, which has been live since September 2011.

I think we've got it straight for folks reading about this in the forum that the current live beta site was never meant for anything other than being an information source "About Us", and a point of "Contact". The intent for this site was not an e-commerce store where people could place orders. It is very visible in a Google or any other search engine, but only as a place holder of our URL until our e-commerce site is ready to be released and people can start placing orders through it.

There is no search engine that would take someone to our new e-commerce site as it's not accessible online, other than to folks we've given a key to though the back door, which is the link we've posted only in the AK Files and a to few enquiries that have contacted us through our current beta site for info. For people we've allowed access to the new site; they are made fully aware they are unable to place orders in it, but it can be done by picking up the phone and calling us with a credit or debit card that we process manually, versus through a shopping cart.

I'm bringing all this up again as I think it's important for people who aren't as knowledgeable as you to understand this. If you take another look at the new e-commerce site you'll see that many of the previously empty categories like "Firearms" and "Ammo" now have product displayed with pricing and information. However; even these categories aren't fully done and there are other firearms and ammo being offered that are not showing yet. You'll also note there are still some category links that say "There are no products matching the selection". I personally hate going into a live site that has links with this type of disclaimer and think it's unprofessional.

Cody is literally putting in 18 - 20 hours a day 7 days a week on the site so when we flip the switch there won't be any dead category links. We collaborate multiple times a day going through our "To Do" list and divide the responsibilities. We will continue to drive ourselves this way till it's done. If you see areas that need changes, or want us to offer products you don't see, email Cody at cody.hulett@blackhorsearsenal.com and let him know. As mentioned before, the part of the site that has had the least amount of attention is the "Black Horse" section, which will show all our new products and have the "Technical" section complete. We've been saying we're a weeks away from flipping the switch for months, which has always been a rather unrealistic hope, but I think it's safe to say this is becoming a reality very quickly.

You'll note in the following static screen shot of the site that there is a disclaimer in the upper right hand corner that says "This store is under construction. Any orders placed will not be honored or fulfilled". This has always been displayed on every page from day one and maybe isn't obvious enough. You'll also note that we've specificly emphasized it in the "Firearms" category as people are wanting to buy Veprs from us NOW!! We are also getting a large number of people sending us Veprs and PSLs wanting us to install all our accessories for them. We get multiple calls daily from people asking what our custom competencies are, and wanting us to do similar modifications to their weapons as we have with the Vepr we've been working on.

We not only don't have answers, we don't know the future questions. We are certainly capable, we're just not sure at this point where we're going with our custom shop; yet people keep sending us guns anyway with no clue what the charges are even going to be, and telling us price is not the issue, they just want us to do the whole gun with every mod and accessory we have whatever the cost. Our experience is manufacturing weapons on a large scale of 1,000s per month, so narrowing our focus to a specific gun versus assembly line production, which we're accustom to, is going to be a learning curve. Our new facility where we've combined our stock manufacturing, with our e-commerce company was done with the specific intent of doing one off custom work for customers as well, through the new corporate entity we've set up as BHA, Inc., dba, Black Horse Arsenal, which we're pretty excited about and there will be pricing for these services on the website. This is also where our new BHA 54 will be assembled, one gun at a time.

Jerry aka Gorbachov

[Lenin]

Alas another long night for me, and as Jerry has mentioned I am working full tilt on the site I did have time to get the Blackhorse Facebook off the ground and if that is more convenient than thread checks daily I welcome you all to like us to be kept up to date.

http://www.facebook.com/BlackHorseArsenal