California Underfolder question????

[Renov8]

Does anyone here have first hand knowledge regarding the transfer of a Polish Underfolder from one ffl out of state to another ffl into CA? I have a Files Forum member who would love to buy an underfolder and have it transferef to Ca. The vendor of said underfolder does not want to get stuck in the middle.

Any ideas how we can make the deal work?

Thanks,

Renov8

[talaananthes]

My limited understanding of CA law is that an underfolder just don't be legal period end of story. Even if you put a bullet button on it, and send it with a 10 round mag, when folded it still fails the length requirement under CA law and is an assault weapon.

[Renov8]

Originally Posted by talaananthes

My limited understanding of CA law is that an underfolder just don't be legal period end of story. Even if you put a bullet button on it, and send it with a 10 round mag, when folded it still fails the length requirement under CA law and is an assault weapon.

What if the underfolder were to be pinned open?

[talaananthes]

Bullet button, 10 round mag, stock pinned open should make it legal. I don't know what the proper method to pin it for legal compliance is.

If you're pinning the stock anyway, though, you could go featureless and not have to use a bullet button, if he's ok with using something that's technically not a pistol grip. I forget the brands, but they're just really fat and you can't get a hand around one. I haven't tried one, but I've heard they're not that bad. I assume it'll have a brake not a flash hider anyway?

[Renov8]

Thanks for the reply. I got an answer from a ffl in CA. he said to send the unit to an assault weapons permit holder and that he would be able to take care of the modifications.

[like-a-ghost]

Renov8,

Contact the Ca. Department of Justice - Firearms Division in Sacramento. For what's legal and whats not.

And don't get pinched... Cover Your Ass!

[albino]

Originally Posted by Renov8

Thanks for the reply. I got an answer from a ffl in CA. he said to send the unit to an assault weapons permit holder and that he would be able to take care of the modifications.

Yes^ This covers your ass.

An FFL that has this licence, can accept them into CA, non-compliant.

Once they have accepted it... it is out of your hands, and up to that FFL to transfer it to the purchaser as a fully compliant, lamed out, CA rifle...

Or... If he knows an FFL out of state that can perform the compliance bullshit... He can have all that shit done out-of-state, and then have it transferred into the state to his favorite FFL near his home or whatever.




Disclaimer: This is only something I have heard from a friend... I only own a couple bolt action .22 rifles, a hunting shotgun, and a slingshot... I just hang out here for the political discussion thread, so don't take my word for any of the above...

[Renov8]

Originally Posted by albino

Yes^ This covers your ass.

An FFL that has this licence, can accept them into CA, non-compliant.

Once they have accepted it... it is out of your hands, and up to that FFL to transfer it to the purchaser as a fully compliant, lamed out, CA rifle...

Or... If he knows an FFL out of state that can perform the compliance bullshit... He can have all that shit done out-of-state, and then have it transferred into the state to his favorite FFL near his home or whatever.




Disclaimer: This is only something I have heard from a friend... I only own a couple bolt action .22 rifles, a hunting shotgun, and a slingshot... I just hang out here for the political discussion thread, so don't take my word for any of the above...

I do appreciate the cover my ass mentality. I am waiting on verification and will not proceed until that has been done. Appreciate the heads up.

[talaananthes]

If you're in PA, already have the rifle, you could just do the work yourself and get the guy to pay you for the mods.

[WTSGDYBBR]

This is very easy.
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113658

Disable the underfolder from folding and take off the pistol grip. Do not ship the riffle with a mag unless its 10 rnds


That would be the easiest way.

If you leave the pistol grip you must disable the folder , Install a mag lock and have no larger then a 10rnd mag locked in the firearm.

If your selling hi cap mags make sure there taken apart into a parts form and shipped to the buyer separate from the riffle .

[Ytisfedup]

Install a bullet button and secure a hose clamp around the folder shaft so that it cannot be pushed in. That is all we do out here to keep the rifle from folding and keep it legal, the mods do not have to be permanent to be legal.

[collegeboy]

Fuck California's laws.

[00Medic]

We in California feel the same way collegeboy.

[SB_Outdoorsman]

I have a solution that would allow you to send the Polish UF to him and allow him to use the folder while still staying legal.
You can have the purchaser buy one of these tantal brakes which allows the rifle to meet California's 30" OAL requirement. This brake was developed so you could meet the OAL while still being able to operate folder.
https://www.apexgunparts.com/product...oducts_id/2483
Then all you would need would be a Solar Tactical mag lock and a 10 round mag.
http://solartactical.com/SOLAR-TACTI...E-LOCK-124.htm

After those are installed you are GTG and it becomes a 100% Legal CA AK UF.

[Dan FS71]

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

You can have the purchaser buy one of these tantal brakes which allows the rifle to meet California's 30" OAL requirement. .

In this case the md must be perm attached and done correctly to be legal

[SB_Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by Dan FS71

In this case the md must be perm attached and done correctly to be legal

This is incorrect as there is no requirement for permanence provided that your barrel length is greater than 16" by it self.

If the barrel is less than 16" it needs to be permanently extended to comply with federal law.

[Dan FS71]

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

This is incorrect .

If you read the thread , no it's not to make barrel lenght it's to make overall lenght. And yes, it must be perm attached to count.

Oooh ya. Welcome. Now get me a beer

[SB_Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by Dan FS71

If you read the thread , no it's not to make barrel lenght it's to make overall lenght. And yes, it must be perm attached to count.

Oooh ya. Welcome. Now get me a beer

Thanks for the welcomes.

In CA we already adhere to the Federal 26" OAL obviously but have a "State" requirement is 30" OAL. There is NO "State" requirement for the muzzle device to be "Permanently" attached to make the 30" OAL. In CA the major difference of how we measure the Over All Length compared to the Feds is we measure the stocks folded at the shortest configuration instead of unfolded.

[Dan FS71]

Cal uses the smallest size when measuring anything. AOL get measured with the folder folded and at the muzzle. The muzzle is defined as the end of the barrel. A md used to make lenght that is NOT perm attached is just a long md.

Just as a barrel that is less than 16 with a removeable md is still less than 16. If it is used to make lenght whether barrel or overall it must be perm attached per atf spec. eg. blind pin & weld, 4 spot welds @ 90 deg, 1 continuious weld at least 180 deg or high temp solder.

Calguns is a great place to verify.

Hope this helps

[SB_Outdoorsman]

Dan are you from CA ? You mentioned Calguns and I can post more than a few threads stating that the muzzle device does not have to be "Permanently" attached to make CA State OAL. This is not a Federal requirement, this is a state requirement and the state measures the smallest configuration as I stated and as you did. Which is from the rear of the Receiver to the "Tip" of the muzzle, which means to the tip of the MD attached to the Barrel. We are not measuring the barrels length which you would measure from the crown back. The Federal 26" OAL has already been met therefore there is no need for the Muzzle Device to be Permanent.

We can go back and fourth on this issue until we're both blue in the face, I would caution the OP & Purchaser to contact the Calguns Foundation and ask for themselves.

[Dan FS71]

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

We can go back and fourth on this issue until we're both blue in the face.

And I will when advice that will cause someone to catch a felony is given.

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

I can post more than a few threads stating that the muzzle device does not have to be "Permanently" attached to make CA State OAL. .

Please do, an make sure they contain the part of the law that says muzzle.

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

the Receiver to the "Tip" of the muzzle,.

Yes the muzzle... By definition the muzzle is part of the barrel. The md only acts as a muzzle if it is permanently attached.

Please just think about the law. They demand you permanently attach a md to make barrel lenght because they don't want you to just be able to unscrew it anytime you want.

They demand that normal cap mags (30 rounders) be permanently converted to 10 rounds because they don't want you to pull the stick out and load up 30 rds when ever you feel like it.

And they measure AOL with the shortest configuration to the muzzle. If your md isn't perm attached they will unscrew it and measure to the muzzle as the law is written and you get a free trip to the slammer.

Please do referance your sources. I'm more than happy to say when I'm wrong.

[SB_Outdoorsman]

Hey Dan
I've made a Thread on CalGuns to discuss this issue. Instead cramming the thread with countless numbers of posts pertaining to this I figured "Current" information would suffice. Also if you want to take this to PM's I would be more than happy to continue this conversation and post the outcome of it later on.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...86#post8871986

I'm grilling @ the moment (Tri-tip) & gonna go watch the Fireworks later with the Kids , so I'll be back later to continue this.

[SB_Outdoorsman]

Oh one more thing Renov you could go this route which would cost only a few bucks and its 100% legal.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=185188

[Dan FS71]

Originally Posted by Renov8

Any ideas how we can make the deal work?
Thanks,
Renov8

Before I stray again, put a bullet button on it. (4 screws - 2 mins) and a hose clamp on the folder to prevent it from closing and send it. Anyone in Ca that is an 'assault weapons' dealer will likely not want to, /refuse/ to do the mode if shipped in 'standard' config. No $$$ for them, & liability issues. Of course unless you confirm ahead with them.


================================================== ========

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

Hey Dan
I've made a Thread on CalGuns to discuss this issue. Instead cramming the thread with countless numbers of posts pertaining to this I figured "Current" information would suffice.

Very curious what this "Current" information is that appearently you possess but for some reason won't post


Nope. You can delete your posts if you wish to 'uncludder' this thread if you like. Otherwise you are posting incorrect info that could cause someone legal troubles.... So it needs to be cleared up here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...86#post8871986

First the wording in your thread is biased. It's not simply worded as a question such as, I have a question - is it this or that? 2nd Your referance a disagreement with someone on a different board. Could you have slanted the playing field any further???

For your trouble all you got was opinion..... Some of which conflicts EVEN WITH ITSELF. eg.

gonna go watch the Fireworks later with the Kids .

Good to hear your spending time with your kids. We need more of that here

[SB_Outdoorsman]

The Underfolder in question already meets the Feds 26" Overall Length Folded. It has a 16" barrel which means it does not need a fixed MD to meet the 16". You are correct the Feds measure from the tip of the muzzle to the tip of unfolded stock. In CA there is no Permanence for the Muzzle device when making our states 30" Overall length because it is already a Federal compliant Non-NFA Rifle.

The Penal code states no where that you must measure a specific way.
CA Penal Code states: 12276.1. (a) section (3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

As we see up above "Overall Length" can be defined from a measuring standpoint "Tip to Tip".

Btw the thread I posted was not biased and as far as being slanted you mentioned Calguns as being a great place to verify. I am trying to get someone who can show me where it states it must be measured a specific way, because everything I have seen does not specify.

CA does not state specifics or requirements of how one is supposed to measure OAL. I have a thread here that posted in that thread on CG about what we are talking about.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=562052

[Dan FS71]

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

Dan do you not understand .

Yes, I DO understand.

Do YOU understand that if it comes down to measureing that since the mag has to be perm converted to be legal & the barrel needs a perm attached muzzle device if it's under 16"

That who ever is doing the measuring is looking to win a case. They will measure the smallest dimension. Period. If that means folding the folder or removeing the muzzle device.

I'm fine with you playing fast and loose with your own affairs... but to give advise that that will catch someone a felony.... Much less bankrupt them having to argue that the measurement "should be" taken with the muzzle device on is irreasponsible.

Understand?

My position is clear - perm attached they have no choice to remove to measure. The LAW states if perm attached it is ineffect the barrel. You have yet to produce ANYTHING to support your position but give it as FACT.

Someone living in Calif. should know better.

[SB_Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by Dan FS71

Yes, I DO understand.

Do YOU understand that if it comes down to measureing that since the mag has to be perm converted to be legal & the barrel needs a perm attached muzzle device if it's under 16"

Obviously you don't understand. The 10 round mags being used inconjunction with a mag lock is so we can have a pistol grip and other evil features on the rifle while we shoot. This has nothing to do with barrel being under 16". Also the Barrel already needs to be 16"+ unless its an SBR, this has nothing to do w/ the CA 30" OAL discussion we are having.

That who ever is doing the measuring is looking to win a case. They will measure the smallest dimension. Period. If that means folding the folder or removeing the muzzle device.
I doubt that removing the muzzle device that aids itself in maintaining the State of California Overall Length would be tolerated, This would be considered Evidence Tampering.

I'm fine with you playing fast and loose with your own affairs... but to give advise that that will catch someone a felony.... Much less bankrupt them having to argue that the measurement "should be" taken with the muzzle device on is irreasponsible.

I think it irresponsible that you knowing nothing about CA LAWS would state that I am giving advice that could lead to a Felony.There are many ways to make a rifle meet the 30" OAL and this method is Legal.

Understand?

My position is clear - perm attached they have no choice to remove to measure. The LAW states if perm attached it is ineffect the barrel. You have yet to produce ANYTHING to support your position but give it as FACT.
Show me where the law states it must be measured with the Muzzle Device removed ? CA Penal Codes or CA DOJ do not state a specific required way of measuring OAL.

Someone living in Calif. should know better.

Then I guess Thousands of Law abiding CA Gun owners are in violation
It is obvious we are getting Nowhere and I will stand by my opinion which is shared by thousands of others that it is legal to use a Non-Permanent Muzzle device to meet State OAL.

[Dan FS71]

Originally Posted by SB_Outdoorsman

Obviously you don't understand. The 10 round mags being used inconjunction with a mag lock is so we can have a pistol grip and other evil features on the rifle while we shoot. This has nothing to do with barrel being under 16". Also the Barrel already needs to be 16"+ unless its an SBR, this has nothing to do w/ the CA 30" OAL discussion we are having.

I will try again to make it abundantly clear for you.
Mags MUST BE PERM. converted to be legal. It is the law.
Barrels <16"s MUST HAVE A MD PERM. attached to be legal. It's the law
Why would you think it would be different with AOL??? When the law is clear about measuring the shortest dimension.


I doubt that removing the muzzle device that aids itself in maintaining the State of California Overall Length would be tolerated, This would be considered Evidence Tampering.

Yep, and in the world you live in, no cop ever breaks the law. Right? And even that ASSUMEs what you say is correct. Which even until now is ONLY SUPPORTED BY YOUR OPINION.


I think it irresponsible that you knowing nothing about CA LAWS.... .

Funny my position is not supported by opinion but law. A perm attach md in effect becomes the barrel. FACT.


There are many ways to make a rifle meet the 30" OAL and this method is Legal.

Yep, Even until now you only can support what you say by opinion and not law.


Show me where the law states it must be measured with the Muzzle Device removed ? CA Penal Codes or CA DOJ do not state a specific required way of measuring OAL.

Comedy. I get it. Unable you prove your OWN position you challenge me to prove it for you. My advise IS supported by law. I know it, you know it and everyone reading this knows it..... A md perm attached according to ATF specs is considered the barrel.

You still clearly can't show where you draw your opinion except maybe a feeble post where you ask someone to help you and all you get is more OPINION.


Then I guess Thousands of Law abiding CA Gun owners are in violation .

Are you saying you having given this same opinion to thousands of Calif gun owners and they have taken it carte blanc? Whellll. I guess the answer is yes.


It is obvious we are getting Nowhere and I will stand by my opinion .

Glad you are finally willing to admit you gave advice in a 'legal' section of a forum that was merely your opinion. If you would have admitted this from the beginning WE BOTH could have saved alot of typing.... However entertaining it was for the masses.

Thank you & good day

[SB_Outdoorsman]

I'm not following you on the mag part? Mags over 10 rounds in California can be used if they purchased before our State HiCap Ban if used in a "Featureless Rifle" or "Registered CA AW's". The only mags that need to be permanently converted to 10 round mags are 10+ round mag Rebuild kits that are permanently configured so they can be used in a Fix mag "Non-Featuresless" Rifle here in CA.

Why do we keep going back to the 16" rifle barrel length here ? This discussion has nothing to do with having a NFA length Barrel (under 16"). All Non-NFA Rifles must have a 16" barrel regardless, This discussion what about the Overall Length which does not pertain to the Length of the barrel as the barrel meets the 16" requirement.

I don't see why I need to provide some type of case law or ruling by the CA Dept. of Justice which states that a MD does not need to be permanent to meet OAL. By your rationale any specifics that are not covered within case law must be "Illegal".

I grabbed a Beer for Round 2

[Renov8]

This discussion is exactly why I decided to let the professionals handle it. The easiest way was already established.

Thanks again.

Let Round 2 begin. Ding, ding.

[zacht951]

i have first hand experience with a UF in CA seeing how i live here, and sold one just a few months ago, and i put on a MD so that i could transfer it with the stock open or closed, and the rifle did not have to have a permanently attached MD, the dealer even said as long as it met the overall length that it was legal, i have talked to several FFL's and they have stated the same thing, when i bought it they even said if you change the md to a longer one that i could have the stock open and when i bought it the muzzle nut was not tack welded on either, the place i got it from is also very strict on what they sell because they have an AW license so they have to make sure everything they sell is 100% legal, they told me they even talked to the CA DOJ about it and they even said that it was legal, so my opinion is that as long as it meets the minimum of 16" barrel + a barrel extension he should be fine, if the barrel is less than 16" then the md would have to be permanently attached and i think this is where a lot of confusion it at, i personally have dealt with several ak's here in CA and have gone over the laws quite a bit, but yet again do go by the book to cover your ass

[irierider]

It needs a 10rd mag.. Once the mags out its not a "fixed mag" they expect you to load through the top.. A detachable.mag is a "senseable.. I mean evil feature"

Originally Posted by WTSGDYBBR

This is very easy.
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113658

Disable the underfolder from folding and take off the pistol grip. Do not ship the riffle with a mag unless its 10 rnds


That would be the easiest way.

If you leave the pistol grip you must disable the folder , Install a mag lock and have no larger then a 10rnd mag locked in the firearm.

If your selling hi cap mags make sure there taken apart into a parts form and shipped to the buyer separate from the riffle .

[SB_Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by irierider

It needs a 10rd mag.. Once the mags out its not a "fixed mag" they expect you to load through the top.. A detachable.mag is a "senseable.. I mean evil feature"

Actually once you pin/fix the Underfolder open and take off the pistol grip off, it becomes a "Featureless" rifle as long as it doesn't have a flash hider on it. A featureless rifle here in CA can be used in conjunction with legally owned Hicaps in California.

The only time you need a 10 round mag is if you have a "Non-Featureless" Maglocked Rifle, remember there are more than one style of "Mag Lock" and some keep the magazine fixed which get "Top-Loaded" and others allow you through the use of a tool remove the mag to Reload normally which has been determined to be legal.

Here is one of the more popular methods of owning a "Featureless" rifle which is having a kydex wrap around your Pistol grip.



The CalGuns Foundation has a Flow chart which should clear up a good bit of the confusion on most stuff pertaining to California's Backwards Laws.
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

[motorhead]

CA MEASURES WITH THE STOCK FOLDED. 30" OAL.. polish u/f already has a legal barrel length. you either disable the folder or add a long muzzle device. neither has to be permanant. DOES NOT need to ship to an AW dealer as long as it's ca compliant. either remove the p/g or install a mag lock. ak mag locks install with setscrews. make sure the recieving ffl will handle ak's, some still don't want to.
go to calguns and read the flowchart. slightly confusing but understandable. the most common misconception is that folders are illegal. not the case. they are an evil feature, requiring a mag lock if operable and have to meet the 30" OAL, folded.

[TURBOELKY]

Dan.....the muzzle extension does NOT need to be perminant unless its extending a barrel thats under 16".