Problems Reported With Russian Made Ammo

[411man]

Here is a list of the problems with Russian Manufactured ammunition in at least 5.56 and 7.62x39 calibre ammo.

First: Sulfur Smell when fired. This seems to be the result of the current use of Chinese powder by the Russians.

Second: Split cases both in ammo out of the box and after the ammo has been fired. These reports have mentioned both Wolf and Silver Bear brands.

Third: Bullet Jacket Density and Jacket Separation problems. This has been reported in 5.56 ammo.

Fourth: Primer Back-out and the resulting Jaming of AR bolts in 5.56 ammo. This has been experienced in ammo from Wolf Brand.

Fifth: Primer Back Blast resulting in Pitting on AK Bolt Faces. This has been reported in 7.62x39 ammo from Wolf.

Please reply with the Brand and Calibre of ammunition along with the specific type of problem and any resulting damage. I will attempt to up-date with additional reports as they come to my attention.

Yes Russian made ammo is CHEAP and yes Wolf has replace some quantities of ammo to customers. That said; the Question is "Does one wish to risk their AK or AR using Russian made ammo?" ! These experiences are submitted with the objective of allowing an INFORMED Decision to be made by the End user.

[Oswald2001]

I have shot 10,000 rounds of Wolf in 9mm and .223 with NO PROBLEM. NONE. NOT ONE.

I have 15,000 current Wolf stock pile and enjoy practice/plinking with it.

[Mactrekr]

You know, it's funny, but aside from the rare prob with a 7.62x39 not firing, I've never had a wolf case split or anything dramatic. I've found one or two that had the neck bent over in the pressing process, but I just pitch those. My buddy has put about 5000 rds of .223 through his bushmaster without a problem.
Mac

[ftierson]

I have fired a lot of Wolf and Barnaul 7.62x39mm ammo. The Wolf has been both HP and FMJ. The Wolf has been both lacquered and polymered... I have never had one problem...

I have fired a fair amount of Wolf 5.56x45mm 55gr FMJ. Other than the time when I received a couple of cases (1000rds each) that had a bullet with a cannelure that was higher then the case neck rim (it looked like the bullets had been loaded and crimped too deep in the case and then had been pulled and repolished and reloaded in new cases), I have had no problems with this ammo (including both lacquer and polymer cases). The overall length of these cartridges with the cannelure problem was correct. I returned these cartridges for replacement, which was done quickly and efficiently.

I have fired a fair amount of Wolf 5.45x39mm HP and FMJ (both 60gr), polymer coated ammo with absolutely no problem...

That's my experience.

I must admit that, whenever a thread like this is started, I'm left wondering what the agenda of the thread starter might be...

Don't get me wrong, 411man, I'm not necessarily trying to accuse you of anything bad, but when the "long list" of the problems starts out with the ammo smelling bad, I just gotta wonder... Should a little Chanel #5 be added? Are you suggesting that Chinese powders are crap?

Just wondering...

Forrest

Edited to make a sentence fragment not a sentence fragment...

[k98k792]

No problem thousands and thousands of rnd shot, Thread sounds like BS to me.

[cobranx]

I've had backblast and a primer on one round splitting in half with the round failing to fire. Wolf 7.62 btw

[ftierson]

I've had backblast and a primer on one round splitting in half with the round failing to fire. Wolf 7.62 btw

Sounds like a round with no flash hole(s)...

Just out of curiosity, were you able to tell if the flash holes had been drilled/punched?

Forrest

[WolfsburgBob]

For everyone's consideration.

TCW (Tula Cartridge Works) as imported and sold as "Wolf Brand" 9x18M fired from what WAS a basically mint Makarov PM.


http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf1

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf2

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf3

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf4

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf5

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf6

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf7

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf8

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf9

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf10

http://members.aol.com/akronarmory/wolf11

Not good.

[magnus392]

That really SUCKS!

[ftierson]

That really SUCKS!

What magnus says...

Bob, is the suspected cause a defective cartridge case or an overload?

Forrest

[Fred324]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that looks like a 2 part case. The pictures look to show a case head and a case body that were somehow put together. If that is so, I would have concerns about using this ammo. The case web on SA ammo is the "Weak" link so to speak since this is where the highest presures have the least support. I now need to take some of my other import commercial ammo and pull the bullets, cut the case lengthwise and see if any of them are like this.

[WolfsburgBob]

Mag, FT, and Fred,

Like that?.....Looks like some attempt at a "electro welded" case construction that may be acceptable if loading tolerances are kept within specs,...

BUT,.... if one of the many possible variables like "powder overcharge", "INCORRECT BULLET WEIGHT" or "projectile diameter" are thrown in individually or in multiples,.... BLAMMO!

The projectile went down range, the cartridge case pieces were loose in the chamber, but the chamber was ruptured at the breech with the slide frozen in place.

The shooter was not injured.

The shooter SWORE by Wolf.

The shooter no longer uses Wolf.

Can you say,...BARBEQUED HAND?

:wink_smal

[tommygun2000]

Been shooting Wolf for years and have yet to have a single failure or malfunction with it in any gun I own. I'll continue to use it as long as its available and buy it in even larger quantities when I can.

Because one person somewher, somehow has a single malfunction or bad round.....that doesn't make it my problem. I question the real circumstances of most posts about defective ammo and rarely take what I read at face value.

All the malfunctions and kabooms related to reloaded ammo hasn't slowed down the flow of people getting into reloading, nor will a bad round here or there with any factory brand ammo.

I'll take it for what its worth but I'll still use Wolf with confidence based on tens of thousands of rounds already fired in multiple calibers, 9mm, 45acp, .223, 7.62x39 in handguns, rifles and machineguns without a single problem. Sorry...I'm not discouraged with someone elses problem.

[Wolf]

l've had good experiences with both Wolf and Barnaul.

The only ammo l've tried which was consistantly bad was Chinese Norinco in 7.62x39mm.

[creator0203]

wow! all the scratches n stuff. that casing got messed up!

[NoTreason4]

The shooter SWORE by Wolf.

The shooter no longer uses Wolf.



Except that what you have shown us is NOT Wolf ammunition!

Wolf Ammunition has the "WOLF" headstamp, not "TCW".

This means that round is at *least* ten years old. By the looks of it, and the stamping, I think that round is probably 30-40 years old.

The QC and manufacturing conditions during the soviet union are not comparable to now.

Also, you are awefully vague about a lot of important specifics about this incident, such as when it happened, the details of the ammo, what wolf said when you asked them to back up their ammo, whether you actually knwo the person in question or are just spreading rumor, etc. Also, how has this ammo been stored for the last 40 years?

Did wolf not replace the gun and ammo, or did they point out that what was bougth was NOT wolf ammo, but old surplus?

Sorry, Wolf isn't my favorite ammo, but most of the anti-wolf stuff doesn't hold up under scrutiny. And these pictures prove it wasn't wolf that ruptured.

[Fred324]

NoTreason4,
I do not dispute that this is not "Wolf" ammo. But you are mistaken as to the age of this ammo. It is manufactured by Tula Cartridge Works, Tula, Russia and is currently available from:

http://kyimports.com/ammo.htm

Now the interesting thing is that Wolf ammo is also manufactured at the Tula Cartridge Works, Tula, Russia as well as B-West ammo. If it all comes from the same place and is made on the same machinery, well a rose by any other name...

[creator0203]

i just put 200 rounds of wolf 762x39today and ran 10 rounds through a chrono. what a shock. i got from 1140 fps to 4200! very inconsistant. you cant tell by shooting it but the chrono wasnt lying. i got about 4 rounds that didnt break 1200, 2 over 4000 2 around 3400, and the other two were around 2800 where from what i understand theyre supposed to be. thats what happens when you let a drunken factory in russia load em up. i plan on loading my own and getting some results.

[ftierson]

i just put 200 rounds of wolf 762x39today and ran 10 rounds through a chrono. what a shock. i got from 1140 fps to 4200! very inconsistant. you cant tell by shooting it but the chrono wasnt lying. i got about 4 rounds that didnt break 1200, 2 over 4000 2 around 3400, and the other two were around 2800 where from what i understand theyre supposed to be. thats what happens when you let a drunken factory in russia load em up. i plan on loading my own and getting some results.

I can tell you right now that the chronograph was lying...

You still do have your head intact, right?

When you can get 4200fps out of a 7.62x39mm without blowing up the rifle, sign me up for knowing the secret recipe...

Forrest

[Dan1441]

I got to agree, Iv reloaded a lot of 7.62x39mm, and from what I know your lookin at 3000 fps max?

[creator0203]

lots of duct tape.lol.
im sure it was but right after i shot he shot 6 through it with a hand gun with reloads and they all stayed within 20 fps of each other. it was an old chronograph. maybe it just dont like rifle rounds.

[yasnevo]

Chinese powder...? Now, that is really funny!

Y

[Tomac]

I've used thousands of rds of Wolf 5.45 & 7.62x39 w/o problem.
Regarding the Mak, the pic shows the slide partway back. Is the barrel bulged? If so then a squib load was fired with a fresh rd fired afterwards w/the squib still in the bbl. This would account for all the visible/reported damage and is a testament to the strength of the Mak design.
Tomac

[Mandaree36]

Same old story here too. Over 4000 rounds of Wolf through my factory made AK's and not a single problem. Not even one misfire. I will keep using it - only now in factory rifles and my own customs. As I said in another thread by this thread starter - much ado about nothing - albeit I wonder why all the bad web ink for Wolf from the same. Makes me wonder whats up with that.

[yasnevo]

Ditto here Mandaree36... since 1993 I have fired thousands, if not tens of thousands of Russian made ammo...both here and abroad in Russia and have, honestly, worse luck with Winchester White Box ammo than I have had with the Russian ammo...

Seems like a concerted effort to attempt to discredit the Russian ammo plants...in hopes of drawing attention to Yugoslav made ammo... perhaps???

Funny at best.

Y-

[WolfsburgBob]

Ditto here Mandaree36... since 1993 I have fired thousands, if not tens of thousands of Russian made ammo...both here and abroad in Russia and have, honestly, worse luck with Winchester White Box ammo than I have had with the Russian ammo...

Seems like a concerted effort to attempt to discredit the Russian ammo plants...in hopes of drawing attention to Yugoslav made ammo... perhaps???

Funny at best.

Y-

Y-,

I'll agree with you on the quality of Russian Ammo in general, as nobody I know has more experience firing "Ruskie" ammo as YOU do, both HERE and in RUSSIA!

Russian Ammo, in general, is as good as ANYBODY's AMMO!

The problem I have is with the rediculous conclusions that ALL RUSSIAN AMMO is CREATED the ... SAME... whether GOOD or BAD, ... and that all manufacturing proesses and componets used at various factories are considered the same.

NOT SO! NOT CLOSE AT ALL.

Y-,...as for anyone thinking my photos do not show ammunition that was sold as "WOLF Brand" by WOLF,...I guess you can't educate everyone.

It is VERY DIFFICULT with "FIRST TIME POSTERS".

(Well,...at least the FIRST POST on THIS board.)

[Fred324]

The problem I have is with the rediculous conclusions that ALL RUSSIAN AMMO is CREATED the ... SAME... whether GOOD or BAD, ... and that all manufacturing proesses and componets used at various factories are considered the same.

NOT SO! NOT CLOSE AT ALL.


Here is a list of foreign made 9x18 ammo by manufacturer:

B-West
TCW
WOLF
Manufacturer: TCW (Tula Cartridge Works) Tula, Russia
Headstamp: B West 9x18 TCW 9mm Makarov 9mm Makarov WOLF

Barnaul
Tiger
RAM
Manufacturer: Barnaul Machine Tool Plant JSC, Barnaul, Russia
Headstamp: 9 mm MAK 9mm Mak(W/ Trademark) 9mm Mak(with a trademark)

Brown Bear
Silver Bear
LVE (Green Box)
Manufacturer: LVE (Low Voltage Equipment Plant), Novosibirsk, Russia
Headstamp: LVE 02 9x18Mak LVE 01 9X18MAK LVE 99 9x18Mak

Sellier & Bellot
Manufacturer: Sellier & Bellot JSC, Vlašim, Czechoslovakia
Headstamp: 9 mmM S & B

Jing An
Manufacturer: Exported by Jing-An Equipment IMP/EXP, China
Headstamp: 71 93

East German
Manufacturer: East Germany
Headstamp: 78 04

PS Grand
Manufacturer: PS Grand a.s., Bytca, Slovakia
Headstamp: PS 9mm M

Norinco
Manufacturer: China North Industries Corp., China
Headstamp: 71 93

(SK) Nimrod
Mesko
Manufacturer: Mesko - Skarzysko-Kamienna, Poland
Headstamp: S K N 9x18 Mak Mesko 9x18 Mak

MFS
Manufacturer: MFS: Hungarian Ammunition Manufacturing, Inc., Sirok, Hungary
Headstamp: MFS 9x18 Mak

The first 9 brands listed are from Russia and are produced 3 factories. I can not believe that they have 3 sets of tooling in each factory to make these brands. Don't get me wrong, I shoot a lot of Wolf 7.62 but I stick to what my rifles were designed for. The 122gr FMJ or HP. These work fine in my AK's. But to say that there are substantial differences in the ammo that comes from each factory just does not cut it. All 3 of these factories were set up by the Soviets to manufacture ammo to mil spec and to be mass produced within specific tolerances.

[WolfsburgBob]

Here is a list of foreign made 9x18 ammo by manufacturer:


The first 9 brands listed are from Russia and are produced 3 factories. I can not believe that they have 3 sets of tooling in each factory to make these brands. Don't get me wrong, I shoot a lot of Wolf 7.62 but I stick to what my rifles were designed for. The 122gr FMJ or HP. These work fine in my AK's. <font color=red>But to say that there are substantial differences in the ammo that comes from each factory just does not cut it. All 3 of these factories were set up by the Soviets to manufacture ammo to mil spec and to be mass produced within specific tolerances.</font>

After over 30 plus years in this Sport/Hobby dealing with MANY ammo manufacturers and MANY of the markering arms of their organizations,...I will say one more thing about this issue as it relates to all other products in the known consumer world.....

<b>"Some of the ammo you list is contracted and produced OUTSIDE of the factories you mention. If you think all of the "Russian Ammo" you listed from each factory mentioned above is THE SAME,...as if some real big and burly Russian General stands ove ALL of the factories and makes sure that ALL of the ammo falls into a certain quality level and common specification,....You are MISTAKEN!"</b>



DO NOT take my word for it,...READ AROUND the various boards and CALL some of the people involved with MANUFACTURING or DISTRIBUTION of RUSSIAN AMMO in this OPEN MARKET.

Chevys,...Fords,....Chryslers,...ect,...ect. They ALL make some good ones, and they ALL make some REAL BAD ONES.

Some,...just MORE BAD ONES than OTHERS!

[bill3542]

Ive shot a lot of east bloc stuff in the last few years new and surplus with different results.

surplus polish 7.62x25 that splits cases at the neck.
surplus hungarian 7.62x54 that had primers pierce or flow back into firing pin holes.
surplus russian 7.62x54 that cracked in shoulder area.

this is common with east bloc surplus.only problem ive ever had with new production stuff was barnul 9x18 FMJ was runnin some through a russian mak at a slow pace and had one go (pop) like a cap gun with bullet about 1/4 inch down barrel. turned out round had no powder in case,thank god i wasnt doing rapid fire.im still leery about all barnul ammo yet but you could have this happen with any companies ammo.the new production wolf 7.62x 54 is great in all my mosins. its a simple matter that if there ammo is junk the word gets out and sales drop. i believe they are getting better at making decent ammo at a good price.

[Zane Zackerly]

I had a round of Wolf polymer coated ammo that had a leaky primer and flame-cut the bolt of my SA M7 with two small pits.

I will stick to S & B or American made ammo from now on.

[voland]

I have shot thousands of wolf, silver bear, and golden tiger 7.62 x 39 rounds. The only problem I had with nay of them is 2 FTF in wolf. Golden tiger is some of the best stuff I have fired as far as consistancy.

However, I had a similar Makarov Incident as Bob is decribing, involving Brown Bear FMJ rounds. i now have a very dead paper weight Bulgarian Mak with a blown barrel.

I think the story with Russian Ammo is similar to the tales of Glocks Blowing up. It is simple statistics. I think that 7.62x39 is probably the most fired cartridge in the country. And AK's and SKS's are some of the most fired guns. It is therefore statisticly very likely that a critical failure will occur. After all has anyone put 5000+ rounds of federal or remington ammo in a span of year thtrough the same gun. In order to form a conclusin about Russian ammo being low quality we would need a solid test. For example 2000 rounds of USA ammo VS. 2000 rounds Russian ammo, fired form same type gun in teh same time span. All failures are recorded.

[cobranx]

Sounds like a round with no flash hole(s)...

Just out of curiosity, were you able to tell if the flash holes had been drilled/punched?

Forrest
Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please elaborate...

[ftierson]

Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please elaborate...

Whoops, sorry for the long delay in responding to this question. I somehow lost track of this thread and didn't see this until right now...

I was just wondering whether the flash hole/holes were drilled in the round that you mentioned. If not, the primer "flash" when ignited would have no where to go except to blow the primer out of it's pocket since there wouldn't be any hole into the cartridge case to allow the "flash" to ignite the powder...

Forrest

[silicon wolverine]

Ive had a few FTF's from wolf 7.62x39. But by far the biggest failure was thier .380ACP I bought three boxes to try out and had 62 misfires out of 150 rounds. I thought well my firing pin must be bad. Nope. WWB, barnaul, and AE fired every round. Went home and dissasembled a few. NO priming compound in the primers. Thought oh well bad batch. Called SG and they sent me a call tag and three boxes of different batch number. SAME PROBLEM. I chalked it up to lesson learned and only shoot WWB now.

SW

[FAL GRUNT]

Never had a problem with wolf... only problem i COULD say was the HP 5.45 not loading properly when I first built a 74, after about a grand it runs fine.

This includes being submerged in mud/water and packed with gravel/sand/dirt etc...

not one problem...

Did have a jam with a chinese drum, but thats cause the weapon was so jammed with mud that it got into the drum and it wouldn't rotate right.

Wolf is the BEST :) and I like how it smells. -myers

[Toten Kopf]

I have posted reviews of different lots of Wolf 7.62x39 ammo. The reviews consisted of visual inspections only, as I can't tell what's going on inside. The first picture is of a fired case that started me to inspect before I fire, the remaining pictures show various case damage on unfired ammo.

I inspect all ammo prior to firing and remove the ones that are suspect. We have the time to look before we shoot. I highly recomend that at least a visual inspection is completed before shooting "ANY" ammo.

When in doubt...Throw it out!!!

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/MVC-639F2.JPG

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/medium/MVC-675F.JPG

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/medium/MVC-674F.JPG

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/medium/MVC-677F.JPG

http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/MVC-658F2.JPG

[FAL GRUNT]

Geez... thats what ammo looks like when you don't shoot it!!! Send it to me! :) my ammo looks about 3 times as worse and I still shoot it.

cept maybe that middle one... that one... eh..

-myers

[stroker]

I have shot thousands of rounds of wolf NEVER ONE PROBLEM!!

[Toten Kopf]

Geez... thats what ammo looks like when you don't shoot it!!! Send it to me! :) my ammo looks about 3 times as worse and I still shoot it.

cept maybe that middle one... that one... eh..

-myers

I just don't like taking chaces. I had a sliver of brass end up in my eye from a shooter next to me when his "it looks okay to me" round exploded. You can do what you wish but sorting ammo is free, a new face isn't.

I know that doing a visual doesn't always mean the the ammo is good to go, but at least it's a start.