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View Full Version : 5.45x39 is The Suck.


Gargoyle
04-20-2011, 04:19 AM
Let me break it down to you all shotgun style. 5.45x39 sucks. Its a pussy 52gr .221 caliber bullet that don't live up to the A-Stan WASP bullshit hype.

I shoot on steel IPSC plates and that 5.45x39 round lacks much in ass. 5.56 and 7.62x39 hit with much more authority. Go shoot on steel for yourself and you will see.

low_lead
04-20-2011, 06:30 AM
Try a gelatin block.

gilbasa1
04-20-2011, 07:44 AM
i agree it would be a terrible round if you were getting attacked by armor plated robots! but since any threat you will likely encounter will be flesh and bone the 5.45 is a great little round. there are pictures and videos of its effects in ballistic gel,which are devastating. plus its a cheap round to have fun with. why are you so mad about it?

ammolab
04-20-2011, 08:14 AM
Well 7.62NATO and .50BMG hit with much more "authority" than 5.56 and 7.62x39mm.

Do that make your favorite rounds "the Suck" too?

Are you Killing those ISPC plates at 25 yards with your rifle... like all the young guys at our range? That's what your shotgun and pistol are for. Try shooting that 5.45x39 @ 300meters and more.

uncledoodoo
04-20-2011, 08:54 AM
Wow, the technical detail and logical consideration in this review are astounding! I'm throwing away my 2160 rounds I just bought. I couldn't possible keep the stuff around now!

Tomfoolery
04-20-2011, 09:44 AM
Well shooting it at a steel plate isn't necessary to conclude it lacks in the penetration department. The box already told you it was about 50gr.

That would've been enough for me.

Slade797
04-20-2011, 09:58 AM
+1

Wow, the technical detail and logical consideration in this review are astounding! I'm throwing away my 2160 rounds I just bought. I couldn't possible keep the stuff around now!

Zx-10R
04-20-2011, 10:08 AM
Did someone say anything?

joedirt1977
04-20-2011, 11:16 AM
Good thing people aren't made out of steel then. 5.45 sucks? Tell that to all the dead Muj. I'm sure they'd disagree. Oh wait, they can't. They got killed by that shitty 5.45 round.

Gargoyle
04-20-2011, 12:56 PM
Man, I got to lay off the Johnnie Walker when posting...haha.

I still don't like the round. I had a Polish Tantal and 10,000 rounds of 5.45x39. I was all on the hype it was a really lethal, brutal round. Well, after firing on my plates at 200-300yds it didn't inspire much confidence. 5.56 and 7.62 ringing it good, 5.45 hardly even a "tink". Dinnerbells vs tinkerbells...don't need to be a Ballistician to understand the difference.

ghostbusters
04-20-2011, 01:07 PM
Well for me my cheep AK-74 5.45x39 gets more use now a days then any of my 7.62 ak's or 223 AR's the 5.45x39 is a dream to shoot with its low recoil and the price on ammo is stupid cheep. I love target shooting im not out to kill stuff i just want the best bang for the bucks so i can go out and have fun shooting 300+rds of surplus ammo and not feel like i just spent half my paycheck doing so.. if i need more power ill go for my 7.62 AK or my x54R Tiger but for economical cheep target shooting 5.45x39 all the way

CitizenRico
04-20-2011, 02:06 PM
Hey,Gargoyle,since you've become so down on the 5.45x39,you probably would want to throw away that 10,000 rds of ammo. Let me know where you dump it,I'll come pick it up. Oh,and throw that limpdick Tantal on the pile,I'll find some room in the truck for it.

And as for the Johnny Walker,I've just got one question.....red or black?

beex215
04-20-2011, 03:43 PM
thats it im throwing away all my guns since none of them can shoot through steel. if it dents steel that means it the suck too. thats too bad that i wasted all my money thinking these would do something. but no they do absolutely nothing.

check me in the market place for free guns.

veprk5.45
04-20-2011, 03:44 PM
7n6, silently taking out steel plates since 1974.


So, let me get this straight. Your comparing your vast research of the sound a "pussy" round makes on steel plates to the findings of doctors, russians and towel heads alike.

ACE123
04-20-2011, 04:47 PM
Well if this is the voice or reason? I am hear by dumping my Barrett 50bmg cause it cant take out an M-1 tank...and while I'm at it I am getting rid of my 1919A4 cause it won't take down a building?
But in the voice of reason one would think that one would use the round
/ weapon for the purpose it was designed for!

like so
9mm ..close quarter fighting no over penetration
5.56 ..buckle close jungle battle , light weight high casualty effect.
7.62 .. longer range knock down ability etc...

The small fast moving round was designed for one reason...
to wound...one wounded threat means two others have to carry him away..that means you have slowed the tempo of the battle. This goes for many theaters of warfare...wether it be foreign or domestic..

IMHO...

lowprone
04-20-2011, 04:48 PM
Just awhile ago the lambs and cattle gave birth and most folks here who have livestock were busy with the birthing. We lose
ewes who have their uterus turn inside out during the process,
the kindest thing you can do is put them out of their misery.

I personally prefer a beef steak to a lamb chop any day and after lying outside the barn for 12 or 16 hours maybe, I am not inclined to butcher the ewe for the meat.

I end up taking it down to the gate where the county picks the carcass up in due course, until then the coyote population worries the corpse, well this got me thinking it would be a great opportunity to reduce the coyote population some.

You know what, that cartridge that really rings those steel gongs, it just goes right through those coyotes, that crummy 5.45x39 it turns coyotes into a sack 0 flesh and fur.

I think it was made for that, not to ring steel.

Gargoyle
04-20-2011, 05:00 PM
Hey,Gargoyle,since you've become so down on the 5.45x39,you probably would want to throw away that 10,000 rds of ammo. Let me know where you dump it,I'll come pick it up. Oh,and throw that limpdick Tantal on the pile,I'll find some room in the truck for it.

And as for the Johnny Walker,I've just got one question.....red or black?


Haha! BLACK! (I barely remember starting this thread till noon today, haha) BTW: I already sold the Tantal and ammo. Did a FTF in state here and washed my hands.

Gargoyle
04-20-2011, 05:08 PM
7n6, silently taking out steel plates since 1974.


So, let me get this straight. Your comparing your vast research of the sound a "pussy" round makes on steel plates to the findings of doctors, russians and towel heads alike.

Sand crickets didn't have the CLS combat care, medivac, and Walter Reed awaiting them, so I am sure that added to the supposed lethality of the round.

My experience also comes from 3 years of Iraq on the two way range taking out crickets with M240, M249, M4, and PKM. (I also had an old school M79 grenade launcher I traded for Vodka) Hitting shit heads behind, around, or near barriers, and I just don't see this round being as effective. So it can damage some flesh...so can 5.56, but it has a bit more ass behind it to penetrate.

I don't like the round. If you do, then rock out woth your cocks out, but its a no-go for me when 7.62x39 can be had for reasonable prices.

ETA: Almost forgot one of the most defining reasons for me to drop the pussy round...TX hogs. That round was pretty much cruel and inhumane. Whereas the 5.56 and 7.62x39 anchored the hogs very well, the 5.45x39 didn't do so hot. Many follow up shots required.

Don't get me wrong guys...when all I did was read the internets about the round I thought it was the cats ass. 10K rounds and a nice Tanatal? I was all about it, till I put the theory in practice.

steel core
04-21-2011, 08:13 AM
Man, I got to lay off the Johnnie Walker when posting...haha.

I still don't like the round. I had a Polish Tantal and 10,000 rounds of 5.45x39. I was all on the hype it was a really lethal, brutal round. Well, after firing on my plates at 200-300yds it didn't inspire much confidence. 5.56 and 7.62 ringing it good, 5.45 hardly even a "tink". Dinnerbells vs tinkerbells...don't need to be a Ballistician to understand the difference.Try the 70 gr. Wolf I think you will get more "tink" for you buck. :smile_sma As someone else said. "Try the bullets on gelatin." 5.45x39 is still standard issue for the Ruskie military, which tells me it performs well on two leg targets.

Gargoyle
04-24-2011, 12:16 PM
Try the 70 gr. Wolf I think you will get more "tink" for you buck. :smile_sma As someone else said. "Try the bullets on gelatin." 5.45x39 is still standard issue for the Ruskie military, which tells me it performs well on two leg targets.


I tried it on tissue...no-go.

pogi
04-24-2011, 01:18 PM
I'm keeping my poison bullets. Zombies aren't going to care one way or the other.

veprk5.45
04-24-2011, 04:56 PM
Hell Yea, thanks for your Sand Cricket Removal service! SCRS

To each there own huh. I prefer the 5.45 over the 7.62, and it has nothing to do with the sound it makes on hitting plate.

The 5.45 is generally all steel cored, where your m43 is generally all commercial, no steel. Was shooting at 4x4 chunk of steel and the 5.45 penetrated farther then two types of m43 I had. 5.56 did better then 5.45, and 30-06 went clean through.

From my limited testing,aka facking around the 5.45 seems to do the standard quick tumble on soft, and on hard its seem to shred the jacket and the penetrator continues on a bit more.

What ammo are you using on hogs? Dont use any wolf,or commercial ammo. Stick with surplus or hornady.Seen many hogs taken with these. The round is no joke.

The reason its called poison bullet is the wound caused by tumbleing takes alot lot longer to heal, and to patch up. Also giving more chance for infection. That also maybe partly how it gots its name, poison bullet. Its by no means a miracle worker but I believe it does exactly what its supposed to do, and its does it well.

Again, thanks for your SCRS

GarandFan
04-24-2011, 06:06 PM
Let me break it down to you all shotgun style. 5.45x39 sucks. Its a pussy 52gr .221 caliber bullet that don't live up to the A-Stan WASP bullshit hype.

I shoot on steel IPSC plates and that 5.45x39 round lacks much in ass. 5.56 and 7.62x39 hit with much more authority. Go shoot on steel for yourself and you will see.

This is a fine example of an informed and well-written treatise.

gotmine
04-24-2011, 08:00 PM
Before I go and trash a bunch of ammo...Nah...I'm keeping mine and the '74's because I usually just shoot paper or grapefruit.
From the sound of this I'll have to find a FlAk 37 or Pak 40 if I need to shoot at steel targets....or tanks, but there's still a few older Afghans around to vouch for the 5.45.

Black_Wolf
04-24-2011, 09:42 PM
Alot of dead people would disagree.

essohbe
04-28-2011, 10:10 PM
I was actually kinda surprised at the penetration of the 7n6 on a 1/2 plate @ 100yds. Went about halfway through actually.

7.62 goes right through it but I mean, it was still cool to see a tiny round go that far into the steel.

The_EE
04-28-2011, 10:28 PM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261430

The 5.45x39 has a lot to offer.
It's flat shooting, has a very high velocity, and very minimal recoil, especially when used with the AK-74 muzzle brake.

The Russians took a long look at the .223/5.56x45 US M16 in Vietnam, and liked what they saw.
They especially liked the idea of a more controllable rifle in full-auto, and the fact that the soldier could carry MUCH more ammo if it was lighter.

In Afghanistan the Russians were having problems with the standard 7.62x39.
It wasn't very good at longer ranges, had heavier recoil, and the amount of ammo the soldier could carry was limited.

Worst of all, they were facing the Afghans who are small, skinny, scrawny men.
The 7.62x39 does tumble after hitting, but it doesn't start to tumble until after about 8 inches of penetration, and only has time to tumble once in the average size person entering point first, tumbling over and exiting butt first.

The Afghans were so thin, the 7.62x39 didn't begin to tumble before it exited, and unless a bone or vital organ was hit, they could survive the strike, even though they had minimal to no medical care available.
The 7.62x39 was basically "paper punching" them and they were surviving.

So, the Russians essentially found a way to "cheat" the Hague Conventions which regulate military ammunition.
The Hague Accords ban the use of hollow point, exposed lead, or other type of bullets that are designed to expand and cause maiming of humans.
Because of the Hague Accords, military bullets are full metal jacketed and specifically built NOT to expand.

The Russians heard about the early Vietnam experiment in which several thousand of the then AR-15 full-auto rifles and one million rounds of Remington .223 ammo was sent for field testing.
The early AR-15 and it's Remington ammo quickly developed a reputation for reliability, and for the "killing power" of the ammo.
This was due to the bullets tendency to tumble after striking.
The Army more or less ruined the reliability of the rifle and the killing power of the ammunition in the famous "development" program for the M16.

The Russians took the idea of a small caliber bullet that was very stable and accurate in flight, but that destabilized once it hit, and tumbled, causing greater wounding.
They developed the 5.45x39 round which was specifically made to tumble wildly on impact.

The bullet has a mild steel outer jacket with a copper plated coating to prevent rust and to lubricate the bullet during feeding.
Inside the outer jacket is a slightly harder steel core, which is NOT an armor piercing core, even though it's reported to be able to penetrate both sides of a US steel helmet at 300 meters and author David Fortier was able to put a 5.45x39 through both sides of a US Kevlar helmet at 300 yards.
This mild steel core is flat on the ends and slightly tapered on both ends.
On top of the steel core and surrounding it on the sides, is a soft lead cap.
In the tip of the bullet is a hollow air space.
This produces a bullet that's weighted toward the rear, and makes it very stable in flight, but which causes it to destabilize once it hits.

When the bullet hits, the soft lead cap and the steel core slide forward into the air space, and this causes the bullet to destabilize, and it tumbles wildly.
Where the 7.62x39 begins to tumble around 8 inches, the 5.45x39 begins to tumble around 2 1/2 inches, and tumbles so wildly, it can tumble inside an arm or leg.
The 5.45x39 typically can tumble at least twice in the average size person.

While the bullet tumbles, it's also pitching and yawing, describing an almost corkscrew-like erratic course through the body.
One quirk of the 5.45x39 is a near 90 degree veer off course near the end of it's travel.

This erratic path, along with the weird veering off at an odd angle makes finding and treating the wound path almost impossible, especially with primitive medical means.
With the 7.62x39, an Afghan medic could hope to probe the path to find and extract the bullet.
With the 5.45x39 probing was useless.

Due to the enhanced wounding and maiming abilities of the bullet, the hard to impress Afghans nicknamed the bullet "The Poison Bullet" or "The Devil's Bullet".
With the 5.45x39, the "paper punching" of the bullet stopped, and Afghan soldiers started dying from the un-treatable and maiming wounds.
Gangrene became a major killer among the Afghans.

All this is born out by experiences of American hunters using the 5.45x39.
One writer is hunting the small Georgia deer with the round, and others are reporting shooting coyotes with it.
They all say that the 5.45x39 seems to perform as well as American commercial soft point, expanding bullet sporting ammunition.
The writer reporting on shooting a Georgia deer showed photos of major internal damage, including clear evidence of the tumbling bullet.
He reported that the bullet had veered off at an odd angle when it had slowed, had not exited, and he had been unable to find it so far.

While the 5.45x39 is not as accurate or powerful as the US .223/5.56x45, it does appear that the Russians have succeeded in fielding a bullet that out performs the US bullet.

The Russian military including Spetznaz prefer the 5.45x39 and consider it the best rifle and round in the world.
They are reported to be using the 7.62x39 in house to house fighting in Chechnya, due to the increased penetration of the heavier bullet.
In every other case, they use the 5.45x39 by choice.

Here's a sectioned 52 grain 5.45x39 7N6 PS bullet.
Note the mild steel outer jacket, the slightly harder tapered and flat ended steel core, the lead cap on top and around the core, and the hollow air space.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/dfariswheel/PICT0001.jpg

77patriots
04-30-2011, 09:28 AM
Wow, the technical detail and logical consideration in this review are astounding! I'm throwing away my 2160 rounds I just bought. I couldn't possible keep the stuff around now!

give them to me i will pay the shipping

Gargoyle
04-30-2011, 02:12 PM
I was drinking Johnnie Walker, but I see alot of posters are drinking Kool-Aid. Really guys, I hope some of you were as drunk as I was in your responses as I was in my original posting.

For the record...its never the intention to penetrate $150 hardened steel plates. Set out at 200-400yds you are looking at reactive target shooting. Audible from the ring, and visual from the dot of paint removed by the impacting bullet. (Can be seen quite easily out to 500yds with 8X binos)

A steel plate is one type of testing and observation medium. "Hey, these rounds barely ring the plate, and these rounds send it swining back and forth." Not as eloquent as Dr. Roberts or Fackler, but the same obersvation in the end.

Do yourself a favor too, read through the post before making a knee-jerk response based upon the last two responses.

The last battlefields I was on (Rolling around Baghdad for 18hrs a day getting shot and bombed at)...we are all wearing armor like robots! Granted the sand crickets were not, but who is to say our adversaries in the future won't be armored?

Lastly, the 5.45x39 is fun and cheap to shoot, but I won't be going to it for hog hunting or SHTF when I have ample supply of 7.62x51. 5.56x45, and 7.62x39 which are better choices. (Why is it all this 5.45x39 is being dumped into the American market? - Rhetorical)

essohbe
04-30-2011, 04:47 PM
Why is it all this 5.45x39 is being dumped into the American market? - Rhetorical

Lol. If you look into it though it's because the Russians have a shitload of 7N1 they don't use anymore, they have 7n10, 7N22, 7N24, etc...

ACE123
04-30-2011, 05:09 PM
I would not want to be on the business end of the 5.45x39.
watching this pork shoulder explode makes me hungry though..
pork the other white meat... : - )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlyEYmvP_tc&feature=related

uncledoodoo
04-30-2011, 11:22 PM
Cool video. Wish he had used milsurp instead of HP though.

getit
05-01-2011, 11:39 PM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261430

The 5.45x39 has a lot to offer.
It's flat shooting, has a very high velocity, and very minimal recoil, especially when used with the AK-74 muzzle brake.

The Russians took a long look at the .223/5.56x45 US M16 in Vietnam, and liked what they saw.
They especially liked the idea of a more controllable rifle in full-auto, and the fact that the soldier could carry MUCH more ammo if it was lighter.

In Afghanistan the Russians were having problems with the standard 7.62x39.
It wasn't very good at longer ranges, had heavier recoil, and the amount of ammo the soldier could carry was limited.

Worst of all, they were facing the Afghans who are small, skinny, scrawny men.
The 7.62x39 does tumble after hitting, but it doesn't start to tumble until after about 8 inches of penetration, and only has time to tumble once in the average size person entering point first, tumbling over and exiting butt first.

The Afghans were so thin, the 7.62x39 didn't begin to tumble before it exited, and unless a bone or vital organ was hit, they could survive the strike, even though they had minimal to no medical care available.
The 7.62x39 was basically "paper punching" them and they were surviving.

So, the Russians essentially found a way to "cheat" the Hague Conventions which regulate military ammunition.
The Hague Accords ban the use of hollow point, exposed lead, or other type of bullets that are designed to expand and cause maiming of humans.
Because of the Hague Accords, military bullets are full metal jacketed and specifically built NOT to expand.

The Russians heard about the early Vietnam experiment in which several thousand of the then AR-15 full-auto rifles and one million rounds of Remington .223 ammo was sent for field testing.
The early AR-15 and it's Remington ammo quickly developed a reputation for reliability, and for the "killing power" of the ammo.
This was due to the bullets tendency to tumble after striking.
The Army more or less ruined the reliability of the rifle and the killing power of the ammunition in the famous "development" program for the M16.

The Russians took the idea of a small caliber bullet that was very stable and accurate in flight, but that destabilized once it hit, and tumbled, causing greater wounding.
They developed the 5.45x39 round which was specifically made to tumble wildly on impact.

The bullet has a mild steel outer jacket with a copper plated coating to prevent rust and to lubricate the bullet during feeding.
Inside the outer jacket is a slightly harder steel core, which is NOT an armor piercing core, even though it's reported to be able to penetrate both sides of a US steel helmet at 300 meters and author David Fortier was able to put a 5.45x39 through both sides of a US Kevlar helmet at 300 yards.
This mild steel core is flat on the ends and slightly tapered on both ends.
On top of the steel core and surrounding it on the sides, is a soft lead cap.
In the tip of the bullet is a hollow air space.
This produces a bullet that's weighted toward the rear, and makes it very stable in flight, but which causes it to destabilize once it hits.

When the bullet hits, the soft lead cap and the steel core slide forward into the air space, and this causes the bullet to destabilize, and it tumbles wildly.
Where the 7.62x39 begins to tumble around 8 inches, the 5.45x39 begins to tumble around 2 1/2 inches, and tumbles so wildly, it can tumble inside an arm or leg.
The 5.45x39 typically can tumble at least twice in the average size person.

While the bullet tumbles, it's also pitching and yawing, describing an almost corkscrew-like erratic course through the body.
One quirk of the 5.45x39 is a near 90 degree veer off course near the end of it's travel.

This erratic path, along with the weird veering off at an odd angle makes finding and treating the wound path almost impossible, especially with primitive medical means.
With the 7.62x39, an Afghan medic could hope to probe the path to find and extract the bullet.
With the 5.45x39 probing was useless.

Due to the enhanced wounding and maiming abilities of the bullet, the hard to impress Afghans nicknamed the bullet "The Poison Bullet" or "The Devil's Bullet".
With the 5.45x39, the "paper punching" of the bullet stopped, and Afghan soldiers started dying from the un-treatable and maiming wounds.
Gangrene became a major killer among the Afghans.

All this is born out by experiences of American hunters using the 5.45x39.
One writer is hunting the small Georgia deer with the round, and others are reporting shooting coyotes with it.
They all say that the 5.45x39 seems to perform as well as American commercial soft point, expanding bullet sporting ammunition.
The writer reporting on shooting a Georgia deer showed photos of major internal damage, including clear evidence of the tumbling bullet.
He reported that the bullet had veered off at an odd angle when it had slowed, had not exited, and he had been unable to find it so far.

While the 5.45x39 is not as accurate or powerful as the US .223/5.56x45, it does appear that the Russians have succeeded in fielding a bullet that out performs the US bullet.

The Russian military including Spetznaz prefer the 5.45x39 and consider it the best rifle and round in the world.
They are reported to be using the 7.62x39 in house to house fighting in Chechnya, due to the increased penetration of the heavier bullet.
In every other case, they use the 5.45x39 by choice.

Here's a sectioned 52 grain 5.45x39 7N6 PS bullet.
Note the mild steel outer jacket, the slightly harder tapered and flat ended steel core, the lead cap on top and around the core, and the hollow air space.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/dfariswheel/PICT0001.jpg

i just threw away my ar and all my 5.56 :rofl_smal

ammolab
05-02-2011, 06:52 AM
"The Russians took the idea of a small caliber bullet that was very stable and accurate in flight, but that destabilized once it hit, and tumbled, causing greater wounding.
They developed the 5.45x39 round which was specifically made to tumble wildly on impact."

Remember to NOT give the Russians too much credit for this Idea...
The British Mk7 .303 ball ball bullet had an aluminum, clay or wood tip filler in it's nose to create the same terminal effect....back around 1910!!!!

77patriots
05-02-2011, 01:39 PM
"The Russians took the idea of a small caliber bullet that was very stable and accurate in flight, but that destabilized once it hit, and tumbled, causing greater wounding.
They developed the 5.45x39 round which was specifically made to tumble wildly on impact."

Remember to NOT give the Russians too much credit for this Idea...
The British Mk7 .303 ball ball bullet had an aluminum, clay or wood tip filler in it's nose to create the same terminal effect....back around 1910!!!!


Yes sir! and the Germans were working on the same thing AFTER they found out the Brits had pulled it off..

veprk5.45
05-02-2011, 03:00 PM
Did the brits put the round in a weapon as good as the ak? Let me go check the safe.......nope, no British made weapons in there


Rusky's 1, brits ZERO

ammolab
05-02-2011, 09:44 PM
Did the brits put the round in a weapon as good as the ak? Let me go check the safe.......nope, no British made weapons in there


Rusky's 1, brits ZERO


As "good as an AK"????? Seems like PLENTY of Russians lost their AKs to the Muj when they dropped from a .303 bullet at LONG RANGE...beyond the effective range of a Russian AK.

Muj Mk7 ball .303 1, dead Rusky ZERO (they lost that war you know?)

Do you now under stand why the US and British GIs in Afganistan are putting 7.62 NATO caliber rifles in each squad? Not AKs, but M14 rebuilds and Modern AR10 clones. It don't matter how much your "magic bullet" tumbles if it can't even make it to the target!

veprk5.45
05-02-2011, 10:54 PM
Your totally right, whats your address....I'll be getting rid of all my ak's now!!!!


Because the the muj used a bolt action brit rifle to end the war..........lol

ammolab
05-03-2011, 07:49 AM
Your totally right, whats your address....I'll be getting rid of all my ak's now!!!!


Because the the muj used a bolt action brit rifle to end the war..........lol

OK, maybe the Stinger air to ground missle helped some too ;).... but you do know that the Russians came to depend on air power and air mobile tactics because the Muj denied them the ability to move around the countryside.

The .303s helped a bit.

CitizenRico
05-03-2011, 09:17 AM
Oh,Geez.....Why don't we all just go over to Gargoyle's house and drink up his booze?

veprk5.45
05-03-2011, 02:44 PM
Johnny Walker......I'm game


I was just messin with the rusky 1 brit zero thing

Ive got respect for the mad minute rifle....and some time's that extra distance and knock down power is just what you need :)

Not a expert on that hole situation down there....but once they started losing aircraft it doesnt seem that they effectively adapted, or when they did we just sent the correct tools to the muj to get it done.....

Gargoyle
05-03-2011, 11:42 PM
Oh,Geez.....Why don't we all just go over to Gargoyle's house and drink up his booze?

Lets do it! BYOA though! Tee-hee!

Damn, this thread has evolved! Obligatory Enfield Porn:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Belt_Fed_Red/031.jpg

ammolab
05-04-2011, 07:59 AM
Man....You need a charger full of Mk7 ball in that picture!

LuckyGunner
05-04-2011, 11:58 AM
Sorry Gargoyle I have to agree with ammolab. If you had a charger of ammo that picture would be perfect. Still a 9 out of 10 though.

On the OP topic. I'll still keep my 5.45. My wife prefers shooting the 74 over the 47 so it's a no brainer for me. Plus she doesn't chip in much for ammo so any break in price is great.

Gargoyle
05-04-2011, 03:43 PM
Sorry Gargoyle I have to agree with ammolab. If you had a charger of ammo that picture would be perfect. Still a 9 out of 10 though.

On the OP topic. I'll still keep my 5.45. My wife prefers shooting the 74 over the 47 so it's a no brainer for me. Plus she doesn't chip in much for ammo so any break in price is great.

Wow guys! That is an Irish Contract Rifle along with an Irish Defense Forces Medal, and a copy of an armory issue card...everyone has an Enfield charger!

Type56S
05-15-2011, 12:27 AM
Fuck 'em all. 20MM is the way to go :D

obxned
05-25-2011, 12:57 PM
The 7N6 5.45x39 definitely does not penetrate hard targets as well as the 7.62x39, but is about equal to the 5.56 even with the heavier bullets. On soft targets, once the 5.56 looses its initial velocity and fails to fragment, it is not very impressive, but the 5.45x39 still tumbles and does the job even when it has slowed down.

I think I know how the 5.45 can tumble so well in soft targets and still penetrate hard ones. On impact with meat, the core does not move forward significantly, so the bullet is still weighted in the rear, causing it to flip 180 degrees almost instantly. That first violent flip, together with the gyroscopic forces created by the spinning of the bullet set it off on its merry little dance. On a hard target, the core does slam forward, creating the same effect as with a dead-blow hammer.

AKMeister
05-25-2011, 05:36 PM
This is an interesting theoretical discussion (not really), but one paramount fact remains: if you get hit with either a 5.56, 5.45 or 7.62x39, there's a better than even chance it's going to ruin any dinner plans you might have had.

Combined with the fact that I can currently buy mil-spec 5.45 for half the price of mil-spec 5.56, it was an easy choice for me to stock up on 5.45.

For some strange reason, I just don't think I'm going to lose any sleep over having stockpiled more 5.45 than 5.56.

Bolt2bounce
05-30-2011, 04:20 PM
By the end of the 20 th century, the army of the world have accumulated vast experience of modern warfare in the context of the large world and many local wars with massive use of small arms.

Past experience indicated the need to modernize the small complex to reduce the mass of arms and ammunition, to reduce the recoil momentum, increasing the probability of hitting the target, to save expensive materials for mass production of cartridges.

The solution to these problems has been the emergence of a new class of automatic weapons and ammunition to them maloimpulsnyh 5,45-5,56 mm caliber, who came to the replacement of 7,62 mm.

In the USSR, was developed in 1974 and was adopted for the rifle range caliber 5,45 mm, including the basic AK-74 and 5.45-mm cartridge with an ordinary bullet (index 7N6).

Toner cartridge 7N6 (See Fig. 1) contains a stamped, heat-treated steel core (material - steel 10), a bimetallic hull, lead shirt. At the head of the bullet has a cavity, which allows to shift the center of gravity of the bullet toward the tail section and ensure that loss of stability of a bullet at a meeting with the barrier, which gives it extra killer action.

Fig. 2B, such as a bullet lasted until 1987, while the armies of the world did not become widely used personal protective equipment. Designers and manufacturers of patrons responded by adopting the simplest solution - replacement of the core materials for steel 65G, 70, 75, and the use of thermal strengthening core operations in order to achieve its hardness is not lower than 60 HRC. The design and dimensions bullets remained unchanged (Fig. 2).

However, further development of personal protective equipment, use of body armor with plates of solid titanium alloys drastically reduced the effectiveness of bullet 7N6 with heat-treated core due to imperfections in the form of the core, which is unable to break through a plate of titanium alloy, even at close distances.

The developers of munitions tasked to create a new class of 5.45 mm cartridge, which has high penetrative ability.

In 1992 it was resolved by the creative team of designers and engineers the Barnaul machine tool factory. Was developed and put into service 5.45-mm cartridge with enhanced penetration bullet (7N10 index.)

Fig. 3Pulya 7N10 (Fig. 3) differs from the bullet 7N6 fact that it uses extruded tapered core, the diameter of the upper end is less than 1.8 mm, bullet weight increased by 5% in the head part, by analogy with the bullet retained 7N6 cavity. New bullet penetrated by plates secured rims at a distance of 100 meters - 100%, and steel plates 14 mm thick at a distance of 100 meters at least 80%.

Nevertheless, in 1993, works to increase the efficiency of defeat obstacles, as well as improving the accuracy and adaptability to manufacture bullets, actively continued, resulting in the development and transition in 1994 to produce 5.45-mm cartridge with a modernized 7N10 bullet of enhanced penetration .

Fig. 4Glavnoe contrast upgraded bullet 7N10 (Fig. 4) that the cavity of the head of the bullets had been filled with lead, thus effectively strike plate armor made of titanium alloys in the 200 meters and a steel plate 16 mm thick at a distance of 100 meters. Technical decision arose from a simulation of the defeat obstacles, explore the nature of their penetration.

Fig. 6.5 revealed that the existing 7N10 bullet pierces the barrier follows (Fig. 5). When meeting a bullet with the target shell "stops", the core continues to move, during which spreads its shell. At the time of selection of the gap between the end of the core and the shell fits the latter core, like a stocking. Further, the core, will continue to move, introduced into the target, while with it being implemented and is sandwiched between the end of the core and the barrier membrane. Puncture the shell of the core is inside the barrier, after which the core continues to move without a shell, and the latter is pressed in the target.

In this arrangement, the penetration of bullets into the target shell is a harmful element, increasing the diameter of the piercing projectile and reduces the efficiency of penetration.

In the upgraded pool 7N10 scheme penetration has changed dramatically (Fig. 6).

When meeting a bullet with the target shell "stops", continuing the movement creates a core in a plastic lead, enclosed in a confined space between the edge of the core and the inner surface of the shell, a large hydrostatic pressure, which, acting on the inner surface of the head of the shell deforms the latter.

Deformed shell core punches, by analogy with the operation of punch presses, and then introduced into the target, getting rid of the other elements. Punched a hole does not contain zapresovannoy shell.

Upgraded 7N10 bullet has significantly enhanced the effectiveness of defeat obstacles, but it does not become the last point in the undeclared race between the developers of personal protective equipment developers and patrons.

In response to the development of body armor of high strength steel plates was developed and adopted for service in 1998, 5.45-mm cartridge with armor-piercing bullet (7N22 index).

Fig. 7 In the pool 7N22 (Fig. 7) used a pointed core that is made from high armor-piercing steel U12A. Such a bullet through a more perfect form of the core and higher strength and hardness of the core material can effectively punching bronelist 6 mm thick at a distance of 250 meters.

Main technical characteristics of bullets caliber 5.45 mm are shown in Table 1. The effectiveness of lesions in the percentage of penetration barriers when firing AK-74 are shown in Table 2.

External contrast 5.45-mm rounds following. 7N6 ammo are red lacquer dock at the junction of bullets and cartridge cases, cartridge 7N10 - purple lacquer dock, 7N22 cartridge - red lacquer dock and black color vershinki bullets. Cartridges 7N6 and 7N6 with heat-treated core, as well as the 7N10 and 7N10 with upgraded bullet can be identified by branding the year of manufacture, which is applied to the bottom of the liner. These cartridges are made in the transitional year, can be distinguished only by cutting a bullet, and studied interior design and core material.

It should be noted that the reserves of 5.45 mm caliber bullet in terms of increasing the efficiency of defeat obstacles are far from exhausted, the work in this direction are continuing.

All of the above-described history of development of 5.45 mm caliber bullet shows the talent of experts of the Russian school of small arms and ammunition that have developed in their time the complex is 5.45 mm caliber, as well as working professionals today, which could reveal inherent in the 5.45-mm range potential effectiveness.

Table 1
Main technical characteristics of bullets caliber 5,45 mm
Specifications Type of bullet
7N6 7N6 with heat-treated core 7N10 7N10 7N22 upgraded
Mass of core, mean, g 1.43 1.43 1.80 1.72 1.75
Bullet weight, mean, g 3.43 3.43 3.60 3.62 3.69
Core material steel 10 65G, 70, 75 Steel 70, 75 Steel 70, 75 steel U12A
The presence of lead at the head of a bullet no no no yes yes

Table 2
The effectiveness of lesions in the percentage of penetration barriers when firing AK-74
Form barriers Firing range, m type bullets
7N6 7N6 with heat-treated core 7N10 7N10 7N22 upgraded
Flak 6ZH85T (6BZT-M) 100
200 0
0 60
0 100
40 100
80 100
100
Steel plate, steel 3-material, thickness 14 mm 100 0 30 80 100 100
Steel Plate Material - stal3, thickness 16 mm 100 0 0 30 90 100
Steel plate, steel 3-material, thickness 20 mm 100 0 0 0 30 80
Bronelist thickness of 6 mm 100
250 0
0 0
0 20
0 50
0 100
80

*

I<3AKM
06-02-2011, 02:03 PM
Is anyone finding rounds made after 1993?

twc
06-04-2011, 02:56 AM
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iwKf-yoEhnM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

KickinBrass
06-06-2011, 12:22 PM
I think the main thing we need to remember here is that none of us want to get hit by a 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 5.56x45, or really any bullet for that matter. Sure the 5.45 might do marginally / arguably better in human targets than a 7.62, but I am pretty sure that getting hit with a 7.62 wouldn't be too fun either.

Personally I prefer 7.62 because of its ability to make almost any cover negligible, plus I wanted an AK47 over an AK74. That doesn't mean I don't have respect for the 5.45 though...its just a different bullet designed to perform a different way.

cadillacguns
06-15-2011, 06:26 AM
I have a Romanian MKII, and about 6,000 rds of 5.45x39.
I like it, I use it and although I would prefer my XM177 in 5.56 for a SHTF scenario, I wouldn't feel undergunned carrying it.

jimk
06-17-2011, 04:25 PM
I'm a long rifle guy, not an assault rifle guy, and I don't have a dog in this race. But when I see false history and junk science, I have to jump in. The_EE clearly has been listening to too much in the way of received wisdom, rumor, and half-truth. Here's some of the problems with his post.


In Afghanistan the Russians were having problems with the standard 7.62x39.
It wasn't very good at longer ranges, had heavier recoil, and the amount of ammo the soldier could carry was limited.

Worst of all, they were facing the Afghans who are small, skinny, scrawny men.
The 7.62x39 does tumble after hitting, but it doesn't start to tumble until after about 8 inches of penetration, and only has time to tumble once in the average size person entering point first, tumbling over and exiting butt first.

The Afghans were so thin, the 7.62x39 didn't begin to tumble before it exited, and unless a bone or vital organ was hit, they could survive the strike, even though they had minimal to no medical care available.
The 7.62x39 was basically "paper punching" them and they were surviving.


Your history is way off. Look at the number after the AK. 74. As in 1974. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan wasn't until 1979. Remember? Carter administration? Olympic boycott? It was all over the news. The AK-74 had been in service for years by the time the war in Afghanistan flared up.


So, the Russians essentially found a way to "cheat" the Hague Conventions which regulate military ammunition.
The Hague Accords ban the use of hollow point, exposed lead, or other type of bullets that are designed to expand and cause maiming of humans.
Because of the Hague Accords, military bullets are full metal jacketed and specifically built NOT to expand.
FMJ bullets since the Mark 7 .303 British have been designed to "cheat" in exactly the same way: by yawing to create a larger permanent wound channel.
What you said isn't wrong, per se, but it's misleading to give the impression that this was new to the 1970s Soviets when similar technology was around pre-WWI. (Unrelated fun fact: The Hague Convention in question only applies to wars between signatories. Afghanistan is not a signatory, nor is the US, though all militaries use FMJ rounds as a matter of course. See the original text here: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp)



The Russians heard about the early Vietnam experiment in which several thousand of the then AR-15 full-auto rifles and one million rounds of Remington .223 ammo was sent for field testing.
The early AR-15 and it's Remington ammo quickly developed a reputation for reliability, and for the "killing power" of the ammo.
This was due to the bullets tendency to tumble after striking.
The Army more or less ruined the reliability of the rifle and the killing power of the ammunition in the famous "development" program for the M16.

I hate getting into the AR hornet's nest, partly because there's so much misinformation around and partly because people get bizarrely emotional about it. I will say this: The Army screwed up the initial rollout by failing to support and instruct soldiers in proper cleaning. (A high need for cleaning is a natural part of the AR design; I don't know where this idea that the Army ruined its reliability came from.) As for the power of the ammo, the 5.56 round remains quite deadly to this day, if range and barrel length are accounted for. Oh, and anything you've heard about twist rates ruining the deadliness of the 5.56 round is wrong.


The Russians took the idea of a small caliber bullet that was very stable and accurate in flight, but that destabilized once it hit, and tumbled, causing greater wounding.
They developed the 5.45x39 round which was specifically made to tumble wildly on impact.

Again, this is true, but by no means novel to the Russians. All jacketed spitzer bullets tumble, some earlier in flesh than others.


The bullet has a mild steel outer jacket with a copper plated coating to prevent rust and to lubricate the bullet during feeding.
Inside the outer jacket is a slightly harder steel core, which is NOT an armor piercing core, even though it's reported to be able to penetrate both sides of a US steel helmet at 300 meters and author David Fortier was able to put a 5.45x39 through both sides of a US Kevlar helmet at 300 yards.
This mild steel core is flat on the ends and slightly tapered on both ends.
On top of the steel core and surrounding it on the sides, is a soft lead cap.
In the tip of the bullet is a hollow air space.
This produces a bullet that's weighted toward the rear, and makes it very stable in flight, but which causes it to destabilize once it hits.

When the bullet hits, the soft lead cap and the steel core slide forward into the air space, and this causes the bullet to destabilize, and it tumbles wildly.

How do you not see the contradiction here? Why would shifting the center of gravity forward destabilize the bullet?
You JUST SAID (correctly) that a rear-heavy bullet is less stable in flesh. Then you said that making the bullet front-heavy destabilizes it. It can't be both. Moreover, later versions of the 5.45 round have no mild steel insert, but behave similarly to the original. I've heard this bizarre myth about the sliding insert before.


Where the 7.62x39 begins to tumble around 8 inches, the 5.45x39 begins to tumble around 2 1/2 inches, and tumbles so wildly, it can tumble inside an arm or leg.
The 5.45x39 typically can tumble at least twice in the average size person.

Yaw in the 5.45 round has been greatly exaggerated. You can see a number of gelatin results here: (http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal2.htm).
It's a quick and pronounced yaw, sure, but it's not exactly a buzz-saw. Notice how the second tumbling doesn't begin until at least 25-30 cm. Tumbling more than twice would be incredibly unlikely even in a very large person.



While the bullet tumbles, it's also pitching and yawing, describing an almost corkscrew-like erratic course through the body.
One quirk of the 5.45x39 is a near 90 degree veer off course near the end of it's travel.
This is just silly. As you can see from the above link, the permanent wound channel of the 5.45 round is flat in cross-section. I'm sure it can ping off bone and so forth like any other round, but in soft tissue, it goes straight. Even if it did veer wildly off course, is that such an advantage?
It seems to me that the odds are just as good that it would veer away from the heart as towards it.



This erratic path, along with the weird veering off at an odd angle makes finding and treating the wound path almost impossible, especially with primitive medical means.
With the 7.62x39, an Afghan medic could hope to probe the path to find and extract the bullet.
With the 5.45x39 probing was useless.
Bullets often aren't extracted, simply because there's no need to take them out. I'd say your odds are better with an inert bit of metal in you than a medic of questionable education poking his finger in your wound channel (see James Garfield, death of.) A medic's job is to stop bleeding and dress the wound.


Due to the enhanced wounding and maiming abilities of the bullet, the hard to impress Afghans nicknamed the bullet "The Poison Bullet" or "The Devil's Bullet".
With the 5.45x39, the "paper punching" of the bullet stopped, and Afghan soldiers started dying from the un-treatable and maiming wounds.
Gangrene became a major killer among the Afghans.

We've already confirmed that the 5.45 round and the AK-74 predated the Afghan war by half a decade. Its reputation as a "poison bullet" is probably as exaggerated as its reputation for wild tumbling. Your basic history is so far off that I have difficulty believing anything you say.



All this is born out by experiences of American hunters using the 5.45x39.
One writer is hunting the small Georgia deer with the round, and others are reporting shooting coyotes with it.
They all say that the 5.45x39 seems to perform as well as American commercial soft point, expanding bullet sporting ammunition.
The writer reporting on shooting a Georgia deer showed photos of major internal damage, including clear evidence of the tumbling bullet.
He reported that the bullet had veered off at an odd angle when it had slowed, had not exited, and he had been unable to find it so far.
Hunting results are of limited value. For one, they're anecdotal; one writer will get lucky, and write a glowing review, while another won't, and will pan the round. For another, it doesn't always transfer to people.
Deer and coyotes are anatomically different from people. Slight differences in target animal can drastically affect lethality; for instance, because of a subtle difference in lung anatomy, the massive American bison can be taken down easily with a single shot to the chest. Field anecdotes can be useful, but lab results aren't nearly so gung-ho about the 5.45.




While the 5.45x39 is not as accurate or powerful as the US .223/5.56x45, it does appear that the Russians have succeeded in fielding a bullet that out performs the US bullet.

Wildly untrue, as Fackler et al. demonstrate here (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/ak74_wounding_potential.pdf) The 5.45 has a reputation for mediocre stopping power.


The Russian military including Spetznaz prefer the 5.45x39 and consider it the best rifle and round in the world.
They are reported to be using the 7.62x39 in house to house fighting in Chechnya, due to the increased penetration of the heavier bullet.
In every other case, they use the 5.45x39 by choice.

If the 5.45 is as effective as you say it is, why don't more militaries use it? I imagine Seal Team Six and the Mossad would both disagree with the unnamed Spetsnaz sources you cite. (As would the bearded-and-beer-bellied-former-MACVSOG guy who always seems to be leaning on the counter of a gun store.)

I would say that the 5.45 round is probably about as effective as a non-fragmenting/non-expanding round its size can be. That said, it has a reputation for poor stopping power, probably because its permanent wound channel just isn't that big.

Again, this is not my battle. I just can't stand to see half-truths and fabrications being used to support either side.

lsmurphy
06-17-2011, 07:09 PM
Take one to the chest at 100 yards and then tells how you feel afterward.


I'll be waiting.

TheGreek!
06-17-2011, 07:17 PM
I'll take a beat up old 100 dollar 7.62x54 mosin please...Longer range, much better stopping power, and no arguments about its damage potential either...

kal
06-19-2011, 07:11 PM
the 5.45mm is the weakest of all intermediate rifle rounds.

But as a general infantry round, I think it's much better then the 7.62x39mm and its rainbow trajectory.

RevRon
06-19-2011, 09:31 PM
Jimk needs to shoot an AK74 before he comments on its ballistics. Just because the afghan Russian conflict was after the introduction of the AK74 doesn't mean that every Russian soldier carried one. Don't try to exaggerate by saying it was a "Half Decade", just say 5 years. Most of the Kalashnikov pattern rifles in the Russian arsenal during the conflict were 7.62x39 models. The rifle didn't begin to see service at all until the Afghan conflict. You are correct about later versions not using mild steel inserts, they used hardened steel and tungsten carbide inserts. I'm not sure that helps your argument though. You also discard info based on animal kills but then use ballistics information obtained from shooting pigs as support for your opinions. You contradict yourself while scolding EE for his alleged contradictions.

And 5.56 is the weakest intermediate round as several tests including the one twc posted demonstrates.

I'm not a ballistician but I can tell you that when I shoot cans and other round/hollow items (washer drums, coolers, ammo cans), most of the exit holes are sideways. As most of us know, humans have a chest cavity and are not one semi-solid gelatinous mass like a block of ballistics gel.

cd
06-19-2011, 11:48 PM
There's a time and a place for everything. I personally really enjoy .22 cal just not in an AK platform. In a battlefield I'd probably get a real kick out of an RPG. LOL

TheGreek!
06-20-2011, 04:52 AM
Jimk needs to shoot an AK74 before he comments on its ballistics. Just because the afghan Russian conflict was after the introduction of the AK74 doesn't mean that every Russian soldier carried one. Don't try to exaggerate by saying it was a "Half Decade", just say 5 years. Most of the Kalashnikov pattern rifles in the Russian arsenal during the conflict were 7.62x39 models. The rifle didn't begin to see service at all until the Afghan conflict. You are correct about later versions not using mild steel inserts, they used hardened steel and tungsten carbide inserts. I'm not sure that helps your argument though. You also discard info based on animal kills but then use ballistics information obtained from shooting pigs as support for your opinions. You contradict yourself while scolding EE for his alleged contradictions.

And 5.56 is the weakest intermediate round as several tests including the one twc posted demonstrates.

I'm not a ballistician but I can tell you that when I shoot cans and other round/hollow items (washer drums, coolers, ammo cans), most of the exit holes are sideways. As most of us know, humans have a chest cavity and are not one semi-solid gelatinous mass like a block of ballistics gel.


And if that human is wearing armor he wont even feel it....I'd rather shoot the guy with the body armor with a .50 cal magnum or a 12 gauge magnum slug, even if it doesnt go through the kevlar the impact will cave in his chest and break all his ribs and he'll probably die anyway from a punctured lung from one of those ribs...Stopping power has its place more than ever now that body armor is all over out there, its gotta impact like a BIG sledge hammer swung by a bodybuilder to stop a guy with armor otherwise you better be real good at head shots....

kal
06-20-2011, 06:49 AM
And 5.56 is the weakest intermediate round as several tests including the one twc posted demonstrates.

I should have been more specific.
The 5.45x39mm is the weakest round energy wise.

RevRon
06-20-2011, 06:55 AM
And if that human is wearing armor he wont even feel it....I'd rather shoot the guy with the body armor with a .50 cal magnum or a 12 gauge magnum slug, even if it doesn't go through the Kevlar the impact will cave in his chest and break all his ribs and he'll probably die anyway from a punctured lung from one of those ribs...Stopping power has its place more than ever now that body armor is all over out there, its gotta impact like a BIG sledge hammer swung by a bodybuilder to stop a guy with armor otherwise you better be real good at head shots....

If you use the surplus currently available to us yes. If you were to be hit with the newer generation 5.45 no. The newer stuff is designed to be armor piercing and doesn't have the air space that the stuff we use has. I'd really love to have some of the tungsten carbide stuff. That would be a hell of a conversation piece.

ammolab
06-20-2011, 11:22 AM
As most of us know, humans have a chest cavity and are not one semi-solid gelatinous mass like a block of ballistics gel.


Humans ARE quite semi-solid as that Chest "Cavity" you speak of is quite full of organs: Lungs, heart, Aorta, etc. It is not at all like an empty ammo can.

TheGreek!
06-20-2011, 03:47 PM
If you use the surplus currently available to us yes. If you were to be hit with the newer generation 5.45 no. The newer stuff is designed to be armor piercing and doesn't have the air space that the stuff we use has. I'd really love to have some of the tungsten carbide stuff. That would be a hell of a conversation piece.


Follow me on this...We cant get the armor piercing stuff but the cops and the government can, all we get is the 5.45 that cant pierce armor, right? If a revolution goes down they will be wearing armor. What good will a civillian 5.45 round do against them? Nothing, thats what. If anybody thinks a 5.45 civie round is gonna be any good against government goons in armor they will have a very rude awakening when the action goes down...7.62x39 or x54 all day, stopping power and the ability to break ribs through armor is what we need...I'll take some 12 gauge magnum slugs too please, and gimme a box or two of the .50 cal magnum stuff also while you're at it....Blast the bastard in armor so hard that the round caves in his chest and throws him back 10 feet, thats the kind of gun power we need... :evil:

RevRon
06-20-2011, 03:50 PM
Humans ARE quite semi-solid as that Chest "Cavity" you speak of is quite full of organs: Lungs, heart, Aorta, etc. It is not at all like an empty ammo can.

I respect your knowledge when it comes to ammunition and you have proven yourself very credible.

I must also say that humans do have empty space in them. How do I know?, cadaver lab. Not to mention living humans breath creating some air space inside their lungs. We also have considerable airspace in our stomachs.The different densities of organs, muscle, and bones also induce yaw.

Rule7.62
06-22-2011, 09:56 AM
And if that human is wearing armor he wont even feel it....I'd rather shoot the guy with the body armor with a .50 cal magnum or a 12 gauge magnum slug, even if it doesnt go through the kevlar the impact will cave in his chest and break all his ribs and he'll probably die anyway from a punctured lung from one of those ribs...Stopping power has its place more than ever now that body armor is all over out there, its gotta impact like a BIG sledge hammer swung by a bodybuilder to stop a guy with armor otherwise you better be real good at head shots....

umm.. yeah.. a 12 guage will be stopped by body armor and in what instance do you see most troops running around with body armor, besides a helmet and modern US troops?

jimk
06-28-2011, 12:25 AM
Jimk needs to shoot an AK74 before he comments on its ballistics.
That's the most unscientific thing I've heard all day. Shooting a gun teaches you nothing about its terminal ballistics. I'd much rather use the data of a seasoned expert than draw half-assed gut conclusions based on an afternoon dicking around at the shooting range. (Nothing against dicking around at the shooting range.)

Don't try to exaggerate by saying it was a "Half Decade", just say 5 years.
Varying one's phrasing is a trick my third-grade teacher taught me. It's stuck with me ever since.


Most of the Kalashnikov pattern rifles in the Russian arsenal during the conflict were 7.62x39 models. The rifle didn't begin to see service at all until the Afghan conflict.
Indeed, the Soviets had boatloads of 47's and AKMs. The world is still stuffed to the gills with them. The point is that the 74 had already been officially adopted, and was going to be the main service rifle regardless.


You are correct about later versions not using mild steel inserts, they used hardened steel and tungsten carbide inserts. I'm not sure that helps your argument though.
My point is that the insert doesn't matter. Fackler mentions that the insert helps the cartridge veer at the end, but notes that this is only a curiosity, and doesn't meaningfully affect lethality.


You also discard info based on animal kills but then use ballistics information obtained from shooting pigs as support for your opinions. You contradict yourself while scolding EE for his alleged contradictions.

Fackler has always emphasized the limited value of animal results. In this case, he merely uses them to investigate permanent wounds, and draws no conclusions as to stopping power. Anesthetized pigs in the lab are at least standardized; deer in the field most certainly are not. Adding variables and drawing sweeping conclusions does not make for good science.



And 5.56 is the weakest intermediate round as several tests including the one twc posted demonstrates.
I pleaded against this turning into another 5.56 debate. I will say only this: If it fragments, it makes a big damn hole. If not, it doesn't. Good bullet design and longer barrels lead to more reliable fragmentation. The rest is just details.


I'm not a ballistician but I can tell you that when I shoot cans and other round/hollow items (washer drums, coolers, ammo cans), most of the exit holes are sideways. As most of us know, humans have a chest cavity and are not one semi-solid gelatinous mass like a block of ballistics gel.

Only one tissue simulant has been repeatedly confirmed as a good correlate for actual tissue results. It's not a washer drum. For all the crap it gets from armchair experts, 10% gelatin is the best thing we have. You simply cannot use some untested alternative and insist that it's better.

Moreover, you don't need to bother with the anatomy lecture. The copy of 'Gray's Anatomy' on my bookshelf has been passed down from my grandfather. I grew up with tales of pleural spaces and hypertension around the dinner table.

I don't want this to get personal, as most gun debates--in fact, online debates--do. As I see them, the facts indicate the the 5.45 round has some efficacy, but is not the "poison bullet" of legend.

RevRon
06-28-2011, 01:02 AM
A deer in a field is just as standardized as a man on a battlefield.

I didn't insist my washer drum test was better, I was simply stating the observations I have made, more than you can do.

I never questioned you're knowledge of human anatomy. I'm sure your book has given you insurmountable knowledge pertaining to how bullets behave in human organ tissue.

I'm not sure why I'm wasting time replying to your post. Like you said, you don't have a dog in this race.

jimk
06-28-2011, 03:18 PM
I have stressed, repeatedly, that the 5.45 round does yaw in tissue.

My point is that reports from hunters and non-standard simulants--there's no reason to think metal will simulate the human torso in any meaningful way--are of very limited value compared to reliable, reproducible, and standardized results, like Fackler's gelatin. Some people, whether out of anti-elitism or outright ignorance, refuse to accept the value of lab work, as if ballistics were an art rather than a science.

We can go in circles talking about this round, but at the end of the day it comes to this: It makes a fairly small permanent cavity. Some people say it's great, some people say it's not.

RevRon
06-29-2011, 05:43 PM
I have stressed, repeatedly, that the 5.45 round does yaw in tissue.

My point is that reports from hunters and non-standard simulants--there's no reason to think metal will simulate the human torso in any meaningful way--are of very limited value compared to reliable, reproducible, and standardized results, like Fackler's gelatin. Some people, whether out of anti-elitism or outright ignorance, refuse to accept the value of lab work, as if ballistics were an art rather than a science.

We can go in circles talking about this round, but at the end of the day it comes to this: It makes a fairly small permanent cavity. Some people say it's great, some people say it's not.

I don't recall refusing to accept the value of labwork. All I did was point out a few contradictions, a few observations, and a little bullshit. If Fackler put a human thoracic cage in his gelatin, I might trust his results a little more.

ammolab
06-30-2011, 08:10 AM
I respect your knowledge when it comes to ammunition and you have proven yourself very credible.

I must also say that humans do have empty space in them. How do I know?, cadaver lab. Not to mention living humans breath creating some air space inside their lungs. We also have considerable airspace in our stomachs.The different densities of organs, muscle, and bones also induce yaw.

Roger that...but lungs are far more blood and Tissue than air. Did those cadaver lungs look like an Empty Balloon?..nope they still looked like an organ. If the human body had "considerable airspace" in it HV bullets would not even make a "temporary cavity" on their way through the body.

There is "airspace" in the GI tract of course...my brother in law has MUCH more than most!

allesennogwat
06-30-2011, 12:34 PM
5.45 bullets rarely fragment. A non-fragmenting .22 caliber rifle bullet, even with tumble and yaw, doesn't usually have great wounding effect.

jimk
07-02-2011, 01:44 AM
Adding a rib cage would merely add more variables. One bullet may glance off a rib, one may fragment upon striking a rib, one may go through a gap, one may smash right into the sternum. Besides, what would be the advantage of complicating things? What does stopping power have to do with bone?

The whole point of gelatin is obtaining two simple, standard, and reliable indicators: cavity size and penetration. I'm skeptical that a round with a small permanent cavity and/or poor penetration would be terribly effective in combat. (Probably why you don't see many Glaser Safety Slugs in Iraq or Afghanistan.)

Besides, gelatin confirms what the general experience has been: the 5.45 round yaws more effectively than its 7.62 predecessors, and isn't bad for its weight, but creates too small a permanent cavity to be really devastating. (It also tells us that the 5.56 round is highly velocity-dependent as to whether it causes massive or minor wounds.) For all its simplicity, gelatin results are inevitably borne out by field experience. People whose pet rounds don't do well in gelatin usually attack it, but science is against them.

recon-1
07-02-2011, 10:29 PM
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/products/5.45x39-Ammo-59gr-FMJ-Golden-Tiger-20-Round-Box.html

jredjones
07-03-2011, 02:58 AM
took my krink out killing whistle pigs and jack rabbits the little critters are too small for the yaw with surplus rounds still works good but the silver bear hollow points from 0 to 150 yards it was a pure little fuzzy creature exploder time as the 5.45 gains more use there will be more projectile choices with in reason proper bullet choice can be just as important as caliber choice

steel core
07-15-2011, 07:28 AM
Let me break it down to you all shotgun style. 5.45x39 sucks. Its a pussy 52gr .221 caliber bullet that don't live up to the A-Stan WASP bullshit hype.

I shoot on steel IPSC plates and that 5.45x39 round lacks much in ass. 5.56 and 7.62x39 hit with much more authority. Go shoot on steel for yourself and you will see.Then what about this? It bust this heavy metal agro tank to shreds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMMgjCnltWc&feature=player_embedded

my-rifle
07-24-2011, 12:35 AM
Follow me on this...We cant get the armor piercing stuff but the cops and the government can, all we get is the 5.45 that cant pierce armor, right? If a revolution goes down they will be wearing armor. What good will a civillian 5.45 round do against them? Nothing, thats what. If anybody thinks a 5.45 civie round is gonna be any good against government goons in armor they will have a very rude awakening when the action goes down...7.62x39 or x54 all day, stopping power and the ability to break ribs through armor is what we need...I'll take some 12 gauge magnum slugs too please, and gimme a box or two of the .50 cal magnum stuff also while you're at it....Blast the bastard in armor so hard that the round caves in his chest and throws him back 10 feet, thats the kind of gun power we need... :evil:


Wow. I'm not following you anywhere. You're f-ing crazy.

TheGreek!
07-24-2011, 12:47 AM
Damn right I am... :evil: ...Whats the matter, did I make too much sense?? Lemme guess, you think 5.45 is the cats meow and can do everything better than the rest, right? Fine, you sit behind behind a car and shoot at me with a 5.45x39 civie round and I'll sit behind a car and shoot back with a 7.62x54 and we'll see who is safer behind the car...Or better yet, I'll put on real good armor and you can shoot me in the chest with a 5.45x39 civie round in a 5.45x39 gun of your choice at point blank range, after that you put on real good armor and I'll shoot you in the chest with a S&W .50 magnum pistol or a 7.62x54 Mosin at point blank range...


I'll give ya one guess at which one of us will be able to stand up and walk away after the hit to the armor and which one of us will be emergency airlifted to the tramua unit at the hospital IF he lived through it...


But hey, I'm f-ing crazy, right?




Yep, I agree, I'm f-ing crazy.........F-ing crazy like a fox... :evil: :evil:




5.45x39 Ballistic Performance:

Bullet weight/type-----------------Velocity-------Energy


49 gr 5N7 FMJ mild steel core -----3,000 ft/s-----990 ft·lbf

52.9 gr 7N6 FMJ hardened steel core-----2,900 ft/s-----979 ft·lbf

55.9 gr 7N10 FMJ enhanced penetration-----2,900 ft/s-----1,034 ft·lbf

56.8 gr 7N22 AP hardened steel core------2,900 ft/s-----1,075 ft·lbf

80 gr 7U1 subsonic for silenced AKS-74UB-----990 ft/s-----176 ft·lbf

Test barrel length: 415 mm (16.6 in) and 200 mm (7.9 in) for 7U1



************************************************** *


S&W .50 cal Magnum Ballistic Performance:


Bullet weight/type--------------Velocity------Energy


300 gr FTX LEVERevolution-----2,075 ft/s-----2,868 ft·lbf

350 gr JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point)-----1,975 ft/s-----3,031 ft·lbf

400 gr JHP (Platinum Tip Winchester)-----1,800 ft/s-----2,877 ft·lbf

500 gr JSP/Hard Cast-----1,500 ft/s-----2,500 ft·lbf

700 gr Hard Cast-----1,200 ft/s-----2,238 ft·lbf

Test barrel length: 8.375 in




************************************************** ********

7.62x54 Ballistic Performance


Bullet weight/type-----Velocity-----Energy


174 gr HPBT-----2,610 ft/s-----2,650 ft·lbf

181 gr FMJ-----2,580 ft/s-----2,666 ft·lbf

181 gr SP-----2,600 ft/s-----2,761 ft·lbf

150 gr FMJ-----2,840 ft/s-----2,677 ft·lbf

181 gr SP-----2,640 ft/s-----2,787 ft·lbf

Test barrel length: 73cm, 28inch

ElusiveSVT
07-24-2011, 09:04 AM
maybe im in the minority here, but i think these arguments are ridiculous. The reality of it is, if the government does decide to attack its own people, what kind of ammo your shooting will not matter in the least. I mean come on now. Wether you run onto your porch with an ak74 or a barrett .50, its not going to matter much with a fleet of blackhawks dumping rounds from a mini gun into your face. The reality is 5.45 is cheap and fun to shoot at the range, which is where 99.999999% of its shots will be fired. compare ballistics all you want, but in a general self defense situation, i assure you, if you dump a few rounds of 5.45 into somone, they will stop.......the shockwave from the high velocity of a round does significant damage regardless of what the projectile does. And i would venture to guess the odds of having to use a firearm against an attacker with body armour would have to be 1 in 10s of millions

MilitaryArms
07-24-2011, 10:22 AM
The day steel plates become a threat to me, I'll buy something to deal with them. In the meantime, soft tissue, like that found in most violent criminals, is devastated by 7N6.

Zdeno
07-24-2011, 12:17 PM
Follow me on this...We cant get the armor piercing stuff but the cops and the government can, all we get is the 5.45 that cant pierce armor, right? If a revolution goes down they will be wearing armor. What good will a civillian 5.45 round do against them? Nothing, thats what. If anybody thinks a 5.45 civie round is gonna be any good against government goons in armor they will have a very rude awakening when the action goes down...7.62x39 or x54 all day, stopping power and the ability to break ribs through armor is what we need...I'll take some 12 gauge magnum slugs too please, and gimme a box or two of the .50 cal magnum stuff also while you're at it....Blast the bastard in armor so hard that the round caves in his chest and throws him back 10 feet, thats the kind of gun power we need... :evil:

Aim for the head or the artery in the right leg.

TheGreek!
07-24-2011, 12:39 PM
Aim for the head or the artery in the right leg.


Thats the problem with the 5.45 round, if it aint a head shot or an artery shot then it aint gonna do shit, especially if the guy is weraing body armor. You try for a leg artery at 100 yards on a moving target and tell me how that worked out...I'll go for the center of mass shot with a 7.62x54 instead....

Zdeno
07-24-2011, 12:45 PM
Thats the problem with the 5.45 round, if it aint a head shot or an artery shot then it aint gonna do shit, especially if the guy is weraing body armor. You try for a leg artery at 100 yards on a moving target and tell me how that worked out...I'll go for the center of mass shot with a 7.62x54 instead....

Rather use an M76 in 8mm, but if 5.45 is all I got, better than nothing.

TheGreek!
07-24-2011, 12:46 PM
maybe im in the minority here, but i think these arguments are ridiculous. The reality of it is, if the government does decide to attack its own people, what kind of ammo your shooting will not matter in the least. I mean come on now. Wether you run onto your porch with an ak74 or a barrett .50, its not going to matter much with a fleet of blackhawks dumping rounds from a mini gun into your face. The reality is 5.45 is cheap and fun to shoot at the range, which is where 99.999999% of its shots will be fired. compare ballistics all you want, but in a general self defense situation, i assure you, if you dump a few rounds of 5.45 into somone, they will stop.......the shockwave from the high velocity of a round does significant damage regardless of what the projectile does. And i would venture to guess the odds of having to use a firearm against an attacker with body armour would have to be 1 in 10s of millions


Yes, you are in the minority here. I'm talking about defending yourself against government goons in bulletproof vests breaking down your door at 3AM, not defending against an apache helicopter attack, duuuuuuuhhhhh. The government doesnt have enough helicpoters to get us all anyway, and we can shoot them down by the way too, a .50BMG round into the choppers engine area will drop it like a pigeon...And they have to land somewhere eventually too, thats another time to attack them. Anyway, if you dumped a few high velicity BB's into someone they will stop too, so should I trade my .50 in for a BB gun?? Same logic you're using...I'm going with the OP on this, 5.45 is the suck. If you want cheap and fun to shoot at the range get a .22LR instead, you'll be better off.

Zdeno
07-24-2011, 12:57 PM
Yes, you are in the minority here. I'm talking about defending yourself against government goons in bulletproof vests breaking down your door at 3AM, not defending against an apache helicopter attack, duuuuuuuhhhhh. If you dumped a few high velicity BB's into someone they will stop too, so should I trade my .50 in for a BB gun?? Also, the government doesnt have enough helicpoters to get us all anyway, and we can shoot them down by the way too, a .50BMG round into the choppers engine area will drop it like a pigeon...I'm going with the OP on this, 5.45 is the suck. If you want cheap and fun to shoot at the range get a .22LR instead, you'll be better off.

I'm not defending the round, I'm more of a 7.62x39 or 8mm guy myself, but if it's all there is then it's better than fighting Zulu style with spears and stones.

All about shot placement, but if they have armor on then your choices are limited.

But yeah, 5.45 is a good round for vulnerable or small targets, not so good against fighting goons or Tyrannosaurus Rex. :rofl_smal

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 05:18 AM
I'm not defending the round, I'm more of a 7.62x39 or 8mm guy myself, but if it's all there is then it's better than fighting Zulu style with spears and stones.

All about shot placement, but if they have armor on then your choices are limited.

But yeah, 5.45 is a good round for vulnerable or small targets, not so good against fighting goons or Tyrannosaurus Rex. :rofl_smal


I gotta agree with ya on the fighting zulu style thing, I cant deny that one... :laugh_sma ...I'd even take a good solid bb/pellet gun (preferably made by Beeman w/.177 pellets instead of bb's) in that situation over a spear or a rock. At least I can stay out of spear and rock throwing range and still get 'em with the pellets :rofl_smal . A pocket full of pellets can last ya for days too by the way, in fact you could probably put at least 2-3 thousand pellets in an average size canteen... :laugh_sma ...Good for real small game if ya need to eat out in the field, most average birds and little varmints like squirrels drop like flies from a pellet hit. Save your real ammo for bigger game or zombies...

veprk5.45
07-25-2011, 05:32 AM
Hey Greek,

Would you please explain your experience with 5.45

77patriots
07-25-2011, 09:15 AM
The day steel plates become a threat to me, I'll buy something to deal with them. In the meantime, soft tissue, like that found in most violent criminals, is devastated by 7N6.


I love this post!!

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Hey Greek,

Would you please explain your experience with 5.45

Sure, right after you explain your experience with a .50 cal magnum.

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 11:55 AM
I love this post!!

My .50 magnum will make the soft tissue damage from a 5.45 bb gun look like a tiny scrape that can be fixed with a band aid by comparison...There wont be much chest cavity left after being hit with the .50, which is something that cant be said about the 5.45 bb...

ElusiveSVT
07-25-2011, 11:56 AM
The day steel plates become a threat to me, I'll buy something to deal with them. In the meantime, soft tissue, like that found in most violent criminals, is devastated by 7N6.

+1

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 11:58 AM
Soft tissue is WAY more devastated by 7.62x54....Sorry all you 5.45 guys, you wasted your money on an ineffective pea shooter of a gun, period, end of story.

Musketoon
07-25-2011, 02:31 PM
I always thought , that if I got shot with a .223 or 5.45x39mm I would better and not worse...now I am sure of it. So, are they deadly or are they Vitamins?

veprk5.45
07-25-2011, 02:52 PM
Figured


So many experts, that some how have no experience.

Welcome to the interwebs,lol.

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 03:32 PM
Figured


So many experts, that some how have no experience.

Welcome to the interwebs,lol.


Tell me something, can a 5.45 take a leg off in one shot?? Can it drop a 10,000 pound elephant in one shot? Can it stop a 6000 pound charging Rhinocerous? Can it drop an angry Hippo? Can it blast a hole through a car engine? The .50 magnum can, google it. There is not one big game animal on earth that it cant drop with ease...When the 5.45 can do those things I'll be more apt to consider buying one, until then its an ineffective peashooter by comparison, period. All the talk about "soft tisse damage" is a laugh. All I'll have if I get shot in the leg with a 5.45 is a small hole, but if I get hit in the leg with the .50 magnum it'll blast my leg clean off and I'll die in seconds from the massive blood loss and shock from the hit. Welcome to the interwebs, huh? Yep, welcome to the interwebs for sure...I hope you enjoyed the lesson I taught you about stopping power over the last couple of days, tomorrows lesson will be about effective range and stopping power at long distances....Thats where the 7.62x54 shines....Here's my S&W .50 magnum, its the performance center version (only the best for me):

http://i52.tinypic.com/5vwqd5.jpg

GOZUKI
07-25-2011, 05:22 PM
You've racked up 1200 posts in 3 months, yet havn't said one thing worth noting. Hmm.

ElusiveSVT
07-25-2011, 05:38 PM
Elephants and rhinos??? Whaaat??? This thread goes further down the crapper by the day.......Next the rhinos will be wearing body armor and ride in Panzer tanks driven by Velociraptors.......

Expertowgunner
07-25-2011, 05:39 PM
Tell me something, can a 5.45 take a leg off in one shot?? Can it drop a 10,000 pound elephant in one shot? Can it stop a 6000 pound charging Rhinocerous? Can it drop an angry Hippo? Can it blast a hole through a car engine? The .50 magnum can, google it. There is not one big game animal on earth that it cant drop with ease...When the 5.45 can do those things I'll be more apt to consider buying one, until then its an ineffective peashooter by comparison, period. All the talk about "soft tisse damage" is a laugh. All I'll have if I get shot in the leg with a 5.45 is a small hole, but if I get hit in the leg with the .50 magnum it'll blast my leg clean off and I'll die in seconds from the massive blood loss and shock from the hit. Welcome to the interwebs, huh? Yep, welcome to the interwebs for sure...I hope you enjoyed the lesson I taught you about stopping power over the last couple of days, tomorrows lesson will be about effective range and stopping power at long distances....Thats where the 7.62x54 shines....Here's my S&W .50 magnum, its the performance center version (only the best for me):

http://i52.tinypic.com/5vwqd5.jpg

Greek, I agree with you in a lot of things but your comparison of a .500 S&W mag or a 7.62x54r to the 5.45 is kind of silly. You are comparing a large hunting cartridge or a GPMG, dmr, battle rifle round to a schv assault rifle round. Of course ballistics wise its way out of whack, thats like me saying you sit behind a car with a mosin nagant and I will be behind the car with a mounted .50 bmg heavy machine gun and lets see who survives that. Its really lop sided and a unfair comparison. The 5.45 has proven itself all across the world as a effective killing cartridge in its role, same as the 5.56 even though both are scoffed at. This is nothing more than a "I only carry a .45 cuz pussies use 9mm, 40 s&w, .380" argument with a different round. I can put a lot more accurate rounds in the air with a 5.45 or 5.56 than I can a 7.62x39mm, 7.62x54r, or a .308 and that is what it is designed for.

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 06:03 PM
I'm not gonna rely on hoping to make perfectly accurate sniper style one shot one kill perfection long range head shots every time with no misses with a bb gun caliber round because I aint that good and aint gonna blow 25,000 bucks in ammo and 10 years of my life trying to get that good either, I'm gonna rely on center of mass shots with big power guns instead with enough power to take him down even if he's wearing the best armor money can buy. And since 99.99% of gun battles are at 50 yards or less my .50 magnum (which is accurate out to 200 yards, google it) will be more than sufficient to handle anything on 2 legs even if its in armor and I dont have to carry it on my back either. If I had only 1 gun to grab out of the huge collection I have which includes Browning 1919's I would grab the .50 magnum without a second thought.


For long range I'm looking into getting a remington 700 chambered in .375 ultra mag or a remington 700 chambered in .338 Lapua....My small guns are big and my big guns are bigger.

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 06:16 PM
Elephants and rhinos??? Whaaat??? This thread goes further down the crapper by the day.......Next the rhinos will be wearing body armor and ride in Panzer tanks driven by Velociraptors.......


Ya dont get it yet, do ya?? Oh well....Tell me how your 5.45 worked out on the government goons in armor when they come for you one day...Oh wait, you wont be able to, a 5.45 cant penetrate body armor and the impact force wont do shit to them either so I guess you'll be dead and wont be able to tell us...Oh well...

ElusiveSVT
07-25-2011, 06:19 PM
I'm not gonna rely on hoping to make perfectly accurate sniper style one shot one kill perfection long range head shots every time with no misses with a bb gun caliber round because I aint that good and aint gonna blow 25,000 bucks in ammo and 10 years of my life trying to get that good either, I'm gonna rely on center of mass shots with big power guns instead with enough power to take him down even if he's wearing the best armor money can buy. And since 99.99% of gun battles are at 50 yards or less my .50 magnum (which is accurate out to 200 yards, google it) will be more than sufficient to handle anything on 2 legs even if its in armor and I dont have to carry it on my back with a sling either. If I had only 1 gun to grab out of the huge collection I have which includes Browning 1919's I would grab the .50 magnum without a second thought.


For long range I'm looking into getting a remington 700 chambered in .375 ultra mag or a remington 700 chambered in .338 Lapua....My small guns are big and my big guns are bigger.

i think everyone agrees the .50 will do far more damage but that dosent make 5.45 "the suck". Thats like saying Cadilliacs are crap because compared to a Ferrari they get smoked on the track. There were designed to do different things. And as far as not wanting to rely on sniper style, one shot one kill, i dont know what kinda of AK mags your shooting but I have 3 30rd mags at the ready. So that makes it 90 shots, one kill. Which i like my odds on that one.

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 06:21 PM
You've racked up 1200 posts in 3 months, yet havn't said one thing worth noting. Hmm.


Really? I beg to differ oh sage one...If YOUR posts were worth money you'd be in debt....


I have a LOT of guns to choose from just so you know...RPK's, PSL's, mosins, tec 9's, mac-10's, shotguns, revolvers, AK rifles, AK pistols, browning 1919's, tommy guns, calicos, tons of magazines and ammo links, etc...I have damn near everything, but NONE of it is 5.45, 5.56, or .223 and none of it ever will be, if I want a peashooter I'll get another .22LR calico M-100 w/100rd drum and plink all day with that instead.

ElusiveSVT
07-25-2011, 06:34 PM
I have a LOT of guns to choose from just so you know...RPK's, PSL's, mosins, tec 9's, mac-10's, shotguns, revolvers, AK rifles, AK pistols, browning 1919's, tommy guns, calicos, tons of magazines and ammo links, etc...I have damn near everything, but NONE of it is 5.45, 5.56, or .223 and none of it ever will be, if I want a peashooter I'll get another .22LR calico M-100 w/100rd drum and plink all day with that instead.

so you dont like 5.45 and .223 because of its lack of stopping power, but you'll shoot .22lr???

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 06:50 PM
Did you see the word PLINK in that post?? Yes, I'll use a .22 for plinking, for "pass the time" target shooting, and for small varmints and birds. Humans however will get the big caliber shots, no smaller than 7.62x39 at the bare minimum...

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 07:46 PM
i think everyone agrees the .50 will do far more damage but that dosent make 5.45 "the suck". Thats like saying Cadilliacs are crap because compared to a Ferrari they get smoked on the track. There were designed to do different things. And as far as not wanting to rely on sniper style, one shot one kill, i dont know what kinda of AK mags your shooting but I have 3 30rd mags at the ready. So that makes it 90 shots, one kill. Which i like my odds on that one.


Think about this for a minute. The .50 magnum is much smaller in length and lighter in weight than a rifle, its good for 200 yards, and hits like a semi truck. Nothing thats alive and walking on this planet can survive a hit from it. It can even stop cars, just blast a hole through the engine. I can carry lots of ammo in a pouch just like a rifle and I dont have to carry the gun on my back. If I want a high cap handgun instead of a revolver on me I'll carry my open bolt .45 cal MAC-10 w/a few 50 round mags. For a rifle on my back I'll use a folder 7.62x39 RPK w/scope w/a 100 round drum or a few 40 rd mags if I need a high capacity rifle or a remington 700 in .338 Lapua for the 2000 + yard sniper shots...




.338 Lapua Magnum Ballistic performance


Bullet weight/type------------------Velocity-------Energy


200.0 gr SP------------------------3,340 ft/s-----4867 ft·lbf

250.0 gr Partition-------------------2,940 ft/s-----4,806 ft·lbf

250.0 gr Lapua Scenar GB488 VLD---3,000 ft/s-----4,893 ft·lbf

300.0 gr Sierra HPBT MatchKing------2,710 ft/s-----4,892 ft·lbf

300.0 gr Lapua Scenar GB528 VLD----2,750 ft/s-----5,020 ft·lbf

Test barrel length: 660 mm (26.0 inches)

Brandywine
07-25-2011, 07:50 PM
So if we are going with the heavily armed and armored gov't thug scenario, wouldn't it stand to reason you'd be facing large numbers? Troops aren't going to come for you alone or in pairs. They are going to come in the dozens. So capacity, speed, and recoil would come into play. Also the weight of the firearm. You might get through the armor with those big rounds, but you'll run dry fast, and lugging a heavier rifle (or even that hand cannon) while displacing would be tougher as well. Heavier recoil is going to slow down the shots. All the while they will be hosing your position with full auto fire.

The only advantage I see in high power rifle rounds would be in sniping, long range roles. Unless you are just worried about how many you can take out before they get you.

But the gov't thug scenario is just one of many SHTF possibilities. A heavier hitting weapon may be an asset in some situations, a liability in others.

kickkickface
07-25-2011, 08:05 PM
I love this thread! But I've noticed some thing. Some one doesn't under stand basic combat tactics or small arm development.

If some people had their way armies would be running around with nothing but mosins and .50 mag(um... isn't it S&W .500 or is .50 mag what video games are calling it these days? lol)

Let's see
7.62x54
+Will kill a person
+long range
-ammo weight
-recoil/slow fallow up shots
S&W .500
+Will kill a person/bear
-ridiculous recoil/nearly imposable fallow up shots with any accuracy
-expensive with no gain in any performance unless you need to kill a bear
-ammo weight
5.45x39
+Will kill a person
+light weight ammo
+light recoil/fast fallow up shot
-less penetration compared to larger calibers

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 08:58 PM
I love this thread! But I've noticed some thing. Some one doesn't under stand basic combat tactics or small arm development.

If some people had their way armies would be running around with nothing but mosins and .50 mag(um... isn't it S&W .500 or is .50 mag what video games are calling it these days? lol)

Let's see
7.62x54
+Will kill a person
+long range
-ammo weight
-recoil/slow fallow up shots
S&W .500
+Will kill a person/bear
-ridiculous recoil/nearly imposable fallow up shots with any accuracy
-expensive with no gain in any performance unless you need to kill a bear
-ammo weight
5.45x39
+Will kill a person
+light weight ammo
+light recoil/fast fallow up shot
-less penetration compared to larger calibers


How about this then:

7.62x39 Draco pistol

+will kill a person
+will cause bodily injury to a person in armor
+light weight inexpensive ammo
+moderate recoil/fast follow up shots
+high capacity
+good penetration
+good stopping power
+uses the same mags/ammo as a standard AK/RPK rifle, no need to carry 2 different kinds of ammo and mags if you carry a pistol and a rifle at the same time in the field

kickkickface
07-25-2011, 09:23 PM
I do think a draco is ok until you slap a stock on it. With a stock on it you have a very handy weapon with many strong points and the only a few drawbacks.
-Short range
-Muzzle blast (fireball/concussion)
Really the only drawbacks I can think of.
You can't really go wrong with a krink(style).

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 10:33 PM
I do think a draco is ok until you slap a stock on it. With a stock on it you have a very handy weapon with many strong points and the only a few drawbacks.
-Short range
-Muzzle blast (fireball/concussion)
Really the only drawbacks I can think of.
You can't really go wrong with a krink(style).


The flash can be handled with a suppressor, and the range is still decent enough to keep you alive in an urban combat situation. I have a new in box Draco-C, the one that has the underfolder trunnion already in it. I'm thinking on going the sbr route with it.

kickkickface
07-25-2011, 10:40 PM
You really should. I've been going back and forth about getting one and making an under folder. Not a bad sbr for about $600-700 including the stamp.

TheGreek!
07-25-2011, 10:50 PM
I have the stock and hardware ready for it, I just dont feel like going through the paperwork hassle yet, lol...

But anyway, no gun is "all purpose", about the best you can do is a "most purpose but not all purpose" gun like the Draco w/underfolder stock (a real Krink would be preferred of course for its collecor value) if all you have to choose is one gun to have. Thats why variety is needed, if the guy I'm shooting at is far away the PSL or the Mosin will handle it, if he's hiding behind something that an AK cant penetrate or if Godzilla attacks then the .500 magnum will handle it, or if the place is surrounded the belt fed 1919's will handle it... :evil:


Variety is the spice of life.... :laugh_sma :cool_smal


By the way, I forgot to comment on that video game remark you made...I'm too old for that stuff. To put it in better perspective, I played Atari pong back in the 1970's. I was born long before video games were....

TheGreek!
07-26-2011, 04:24 AM
I dont want people to think that I "hate" 5.45, 5.56, or .223 guns by the way even though I did say that I agreed with the OP about it being "the suck". Thats a little much I admit, I got a bit caught up in the moment in that reply. I was just brought up around the bigger caliber stuff from the very start. The very first gun I ever shot was a 12 gauge, the second one was a .45. I fell in love with the loud blasts, the big muzzle flashes, and the big damage from the big rounds round so of course I'm not gonna be easy to convince that a much smaller round is gonna somehow be better than the "rhino droppers" that I like shooting, thats all. Velocity is one thing, but as the ballistics charts show, if the bullet doesnt have a lot of mass the impact force just aint gonna be real serious as evidenced between the 7.62x54 chart vs. the 5.45 chart. They both travel roughly the same fps but the 7.62x54 hits almost 3 times harder because its bullet has a lot more mass to it...The .50 magnums round is slow by comparison to the other two, but it hits even harder then the 7.62x54 and its only got a 8.75 inch barrel vs. the 28 inch barrel the 7.62x54 round used for the test. I wonder if someone makes a carbine conversion for S&W 500, I'll bet that .50 magnum round would have a hell of a lot more speed and a lot more hitting power too if it was fired from a 28 inch barrel vs. the 8.75 inch barrel it has now.

EPAPressure
07-26-2011, 08:23 AM
Since most of you idiots have never and probably will never see combat, let me explain something to you. The objective of combat is to kill or wound the enemy or force his surrender.

During a firefight, it is essentially 2 opposing sides firing at one another while using "cover" to protect themselves. You need to penetrate this cover, and most of the time, when firing into woods, cement, houses, it doesn't matter if it's a 7.62x51 or a 5.56 or a 5.45x39 or a 7.62x39. It doesn't matter, at all.

Why? Because you're not shooting one round at your enemy, and if you are, then you are doing it wrong already (please don't pull some " ARRRRGGGHHHH ONE SHOT ONE KILL CAUSE I'M A COUNTRY BOY DURRK DERR DERRRR!).

The point of combat is to shoot the enemy until they die. With 5.45/5.56, 1 shot kills in the right place. Period. It's a fact. The same goes with other larger calibers. 5.45 and 5.56 are just more effecient at doing so.

I've seen 5.56 go into someones gut and come out of their knee, and I have confidence 5.45 would do the same, if not more.

So please, take your armchair commando knowledge, and go to Arfcom with it.

That is all.


-Semper Fi

GOZUKI
07-26-2011, 09:22 AM
Greek, what if your armored opponent has ceramic plates to withstand multiple hits to the back with a .338 Lapua?

TheGreek!
07-26-2011, 10:49 AM
Since most of you idiots have never and probably will never see combat, let me explain something to you. The objective of combat is to kill or wound the enemy or force his surrender.

During a firefight, it is essentially 2 opposing sides firing at one another while using "cover" to protect themselves. You need to penetrate this cover, and most of the time, when firing into woods, cement, houses, it doesn't matter if it's a 7.62x51 or a 5.56 or a 5.45x39 or a 7.62x39. It doesn't matter, at all.

Why? Because you're not shooting one round at your enemy, and if you are, then you are doing it wrong already (please don't pull some " ARRRRGGGHHHH ONE SHOT ONE KILL CAUSE I'M A COUNTRY BOY DURRK DERR DERRRR!).

The point of combat is to shoot the enemy until they die. With 5.45/5.56, 1 shot kills in the right place. Period. It's a fact. The same goes with other larger calibers. 5.45 and 5.56 are just more effecient at doing so.

I've seen 5.56 go into someones gut and come out of their knee, and I have confidence 5.45 would do the same, if not more.

So please, take your armchair commando knowledge, and go to Arfcom with it.

That is all.


-Semper Fi

Blah, blah, blah......


*Yawns*


Pathetic defense of your teeny tiny bb gun round, in fact your post is the stupidest defense of it yet in this thread....


*Yawns again*

bounce19712
07-26-2011, 11:42 AM
It is the SUCK when it hits you.

TheGreek!
07-26-2011, 11:47 AM
Its the laugh when it hits you if you have a vest on.....My .50 on the other hand will blast right through the vest and kill ya right there on the spot, you'll be dead before ya hit the ground....

GOZUKI
07-26-2011, 11:55 AM
Can I call you Greco45?

TheGreek!
07-26-2011, 11:55 AM
Greek, what if your armored opponent has ceramic plates to withstand multiple hits to the back with a .338 Lapua?


The huge impact shock to the guy will do the job even if the ammo doesnt penetrate the armor, it'll be like being beaten by Arnold Schwartzeneggar swinging a sledge hammer....Doesnt break the skin but the bones underneath the skin will still break from the impact anyway...

bigrex
08-04-2011, 02:48 PM
The huge impact shock to the guy will do the job even if the ammo doesnt penetrate the armor, it'll be like being beaten by Arnold Schwartzeneggar swinging a sledge hammer....Doesnt break the skin but the bones underneath the skin will still break from the impact anyway...

Oh, like I'm going to stock up on .500 at a minimum of 84 cents a pop, yeah, I'm going to stock up on 10,000 round of that for my five shot revolver. Uh huh,...tell me where you live friend and I will handily take you out with thirty rounds of my 5.45 ammo to the chest and then handily help myself to your .500 ammo. (I don't mean that of course, just making a point in a very tongue and cheek fashion). Cheers.
:small_gri

TheGreek!
08-04-2011, 03:15 PM
Oh, like I'm going to stock up on .500 at a minimum of 84 cents a pop, yeah, I'm going to stock up on 10,000 round of that for my five shot revolver. Uh huh,...tell me where you live friend and I will handily take you out with thirty rounds of my 5.45 ammo to the chest and then handily help myself to your .500 ammo. (I don't mean that of course, just making a point in a very tongue and cheek fashion). Cheers.
:small_gri


Here's a tounge in cheek response for ya, if you think the 500 magnum is the only gun I have you are VERY mistaken, I have a LOT of guns...I'll take your car out with one of my Browning 1919's (yes, I have more than one) before you even reach my driveway... :rofl_smal :evil: ...My Tommy gun should make short work of you, if not then I'm sure one of my RPK's will. Besides that, my yard is surrounded by a 6 foot high concrete wall and has a non-see through steel gated driveway, its the only way into my yard. Good luck even getting close to my house before I blast you and your car into confetti with all kinds of big caliber guns... :evil: ...And then when its over I'll walk up to whats left of you and take your peashooter 5.45 and sell it and use the money for more ammo for the 500 magnum after I siphon the gas from the tank of whats left of your car and put it in my van... :rofl_smal

Cy4ka
08-04-2011, 07:39 PM
after I siphon the gas from the tank of whats left of your car and put it in my van.

... "van" means "flamethrower," right?

TheGreek!
08-04-2011, 07:52 PM
... "van" means "flamethrower," right?


Maaayyyybe... :evil:

savage
08-05-2011, 12:28 PM
This thread turned into ARFCOM. We have a few that are so sure the rest of the world are fucking idiots and that THEY are the ONLY ones that would survive a encounter with whatever attacking elements with their trusty bwaster. Good grief! I read the word "IF" in here so many times my eyes hurt ie "well IF this" or " well IF that!" but what we all have for knowledge and input is important and caliber is a personal decision for each person. If the day comes we need fences and steel gates and the NEED to drop dozens of people (no matter who) we are in for some serious hard times that I think no one would remember as a "good time". Regardless of the decision one makes in this regard, know ye that you are still mile stones ahead of the rest of the people in this world that have NO preperations and are truely in the dark about what will one day unfold upon them. So, if you choose 5.45 then train with it for placement or .50 ----- train for speed and placement.... ie all the platforms and calibers also. Please don't let this site become BARFCOM, we can share opinions hopefully and respect personal choices.

TURBOELKY
08-05-2011, 03:05 PM
I absolutely love the 5.45x39! I also would make my 74 my "shtf" rifle cor the compactness, light weight rounds, and accuracy. The 5.45 may not penetrate steel, but it will do the job. To say it sucks is like saying .22 sucks. All ammo serves a purpose.

Zdeno
08-05-2011, 03:46 PM
This thread turned into ARFCOM. We have a few that are so sure the rest of the world are fucking idiots and that THEY are the ONLY ones that would survive a encounter with whatever attacking elements with their trusty bwaster. Good grief! I read the word "IF" in here so many times my eyes hurt ie "well IF this" or " well IF that!" but what we all have for knowledge and input is important and caliber is a personal decision for each person. If the day comes we need fences and steel gates and the NEED to drop dozens of people (no matter who) we are in for some serious hard times that I think no one would remember as a "good time". Regardless of the decision one makes in this regard, know ye that you are still mile stones ahead of the rest of the people in this world that have NO preperations and are truely in the dark about what will one day unfold upon them. So, if you choose 5.45 then train with it for placement or .50 ----- train for speed and placement.... ie all the platforms and calibers also. Please don't let this site become BARFCOM, we can share opinions hopefully and respect personal choices.

It helps to be familiar with as many weapons platforms as possible too, you never know what you're going to run into and have to use in a civil war or SHTF scenario.

Knowledge is power, training is king, survival will follow.

Expertowgunner
08-05-2011, 04:55 PM
It helps to be familiar with as many weapons platforms as possible too, you never know what you're going to run into and have to use in a civil war or SHTF scenario.

Knowledge is power, training is king, survival will follow.

amen my eastern european friend, knowledge in multiple platforms is excellent to have (fighting manual of arms, disassembly, reassembly and having the ability to know your weapons strengths and weaknesses). All the asshats who believe 9mm are "too weak", glocks suck, I hate the 5.45 or 5.56, .45 is the only handgun cartridge I will ever use, etc are essentially dumb asses. Its ok to have a preference to caliber/firearm but I hear this shit at my work everyday (I work with a part time cop who thinks 9mm and below are not even worthy of owning, only .40 or .45 and sneers/ridicules you for choosing such a platform total asshole and hated by everybody there btw) I dont get my panties in a bunch over handgun caliber anymore as shot placement is key for ANY caliber, now penetration/range is important to me though. Train, Train, and train some more then you will be truly effective with whatever you have.

savage
08-05-2011, 10:21 PM
As in the military.... personal soldier skills! If a person wants to survive in a situation as mentioned in this thread I would suggest that you first of all become diciplined in the art of blending in. Do not put on a LBV (load bearing vest), body armor and a huge amount of EBR (evil black rifles) slung about yourself, rather try an approach that will attract LITTLE (a small amount) of attention. The less you appear militant the less of a threat you will be to those that search the obvious. Keep your action ruck and the heavy stuff out of view, I mean the platform and caliber you will be the best trained with and can afford to maintain.
A thought to entertain, if you have chosen a weapon that has a 22LR conversion kit for it it may be a good idea to include that in your BOB (bug out bag) as you can always use 22lr for hunting as well as keeping heads down when needed plus a 1000 roud box is small in size and weight. If you have a place that is fortified, ie cement walls and steel gates, you are a step ahead but don't let your guard down, a breeching element will cross that like greased owl crap, not intended as a joke but a serious observation.
I myself like the 5.45 and have taken avantage of the benifits long ago, I dont know if I have a preferance caliber/rifle though as I keep several types around (I dont BRAG about what I may have) but rather try to learn from others here. I am a veteran from two branches of the military and am a student of life every day of my life. I am not anti govt but I am related to some of the forfathers of this land we call home, so I have a stake in the future and I have children that depend on men to be men I hope that we can get past all this name calling and rather fall into the ranks of good men with a common goal, that goal being the survival of this country in the capacity it was given to us by our fathers. If you dont believe in God or if you do, like calibers and gear.... it is a personal decision so I will not try to save you or judge you but I hope we all are one team.
Savage

TheGreek!
08-05-2011, 10:52 PM
As in the military.... personal soldier skills! If a person wants to survive in a situation as mentioned in this thread I would suggest that you first of all become diciplined in the art of blending in. Do not put on a LBV (load bearing vest), body armor and a huge amount of EBR (evil black rifles) slung about yourself, rather try an approach that will attract LITTLE (a small amount) of attention. The less you appear militant the less of a threat you will be to those that search the obvious. Keep your action ruck and the heavy stuff out of view, I mean the platform and caliber you will be the best trained with and can afford to maintain.
A thought to entertain, if you have chosen a weapon that has a 22LR conversion kit for it it may be a good idea to include that in your BOB (bug out bag) as you can always use 22lr for hunting as well as keeping heads down when needed plus a 1000 roud box is small in size and weight. If you have a place that is fortified, ie cement walls and steel gates, you are a step ahead but don't let your guard down, a breeching element will cross that like greased owl crap, not intended as a joke but a serious observation.
I myself like the 5.45 and have taken avantage of the benifits long ago, I dont know if I have a preferance caliber/rifle though as I keep several types around (I dont BRAG about what I may have) but rather try to learn from others here. I am a veteran from two branches of the military and am a student of life every day of my life. I am not anti govt but I am related to some of the forfathers of this land we call home, so I have a stake in the future and I have children that depend on men to be men I hope that we can get past all this name calling and rather fall into the ranks of good men with a common goal, that goal being the survival of this country in the capacity it was given to us by our fathers. If you dont believe in God or if you do, like calibers and gear.... it is a personal decision so I will not try to save you or judge you but I hope we all are one team.
Savage


Good advice for sure. The low key part is very important, you dont want to attract attention to yourself. Fortify your home as best as possible, have a "last stand" room lined w/sandbags w/your guns and ammo and a week of food in it, have access to your roof from that room, etc...Thankfully I just moved into a fortress of a house, the yard is surrounded by a thick 6 foot high concrete wall and has a giant rolling steel door for a driveway gate. I plan on moving a whole bunch of my friends into it when TSHTF and issue them all RPK's, tec-9's and MAC-10's. A rotating guard will be established, the wall will be made higher and thicker, gun ports will be cut into it, motion sensor lights/alarms for anyone that tries coming over the wall at night will be installed, two nests made of sandbags w/my Browning 1919's in them will be put on the roof of the house and manned 24/7, floodlights and spotlights will be all over the place, night vision binoculars for everyone, etc...I'm preparing for the WORST and I aint gonna be alone either, I will have a whole platoon living with me when TSHTF...


I'm ordering a few more cases of ammo tomorrow, you can never have enough....


http://i53.tinypic.com/2mfc7pw.jpg

Cy4ka
08-06-2011, 01:08 AM
Are you going to post that in every forum? Lol. Hey if your wall is cinderblock with stucco over it then 5.45 will definately penetrate it. Maybe not in one round, but a couple shots to the same area will. Just say'n... Put some steel/sandbags on the other side.

TheGreek!
08-06-2011, 01:56 AM
Are you going to post that in every forum? Lol. Hey if your wall is cinderblock with stucco over it then 5.45 will definately penetrate it. Maybe not in one round, but a couple shots to the same area will. Just say'n... Put some steel/sandbags on the other side.


This is the only other place that pic is at so I dont know where you came up with that one, and no, its not a hollow cinderblock wall, its a solid concrete wall reinforced with rebar. You can shoot at it all day with a 5.45 peashooter and nothing will happen to the wall, the only thing that will happen is that someone will appear on the other side of the wall and start shooting back at you with a gun that is MUCH more powerful than a paltry 5.45....If YOU arent behind a wall that is even more solid than mine is when I shoot back you wont have a chance....

Expertowgunner
08-06-2011, 02:36 AM
This is the only other place that pic is at so I dont know where you came up with that one, and no, its not a hollow cinderblock wall, its a solid concrete wall reinforced with rebar. You can shoot at it all day with a 5.45 peashooter and nothing will happen to the wall, the only thing that will happen is that someone will appear on the other side of the wall and start shooting back at you with a gun that is MUCH more powerful than a paltry 5.45....If YOU arent behind a wall that is even more solid than mine is when I shoot back you wont have a chance....


Id rather take my chances trying to be subtle and appear to be a non threat rather than turning my home into a glorified alamo. To me, keeping my family alive is more important than going down in a blaze of glory. I hope you have SOLID, TRUSTWORTHY friends that will actually come to your aid rather than bail on you or worse tell the location of your place to others. I have given some thought to this myself, and my father wants to build a fortress himself but I shy away from that frame of mind now. I would rather have a home that would give me every advantage of escape if need be (booby traps, choke points, etc) rather than trying to have a "Siege" with looters/paramilitary/military etc as that WILL get you killed.

TheGreek!
08-06-2011, 02:44 AM
It does kinda look like the Alamo, lol... :rofl_smal

They held off 3000 mexicans in the Alamo for 3 days. I feel a little better about my house now.... :laugh_sma

veprk5.45
08-06-2011, 03:24 AM
Shit, I just bought another 1400 rounds of crap!



Are you not getting enough attention with your house thread that you have to throw it up here? Most of us could infiltrate that shit no prob,lol.

EPAPressure
08-06-2011, 09:10 AM
Man. You guys really have no fucking clue do you about what it's like to be in combat. Good luck in your little "shtf" carrying around your .308 and your .500 magnums. Oh, and your .50's.

Bet none of you thought to bring an IFAK, CamelBak, good boots, or learn to run 5 miles. Much less, lack of killer instinct (it's easy to have one on the internet, a little different when there is someone in your crosshairs).

Good luck guys. Seriously.

Go ahead and find some good picture of Chechnya, Belsan, Grozny, Northern Caucases.


All using the 5.45.

Cy4ka
08-06-2011, 11:30 AM
If YOU arent behind a wall that is even more solid than mine is when I shoot back you wont have a chance....

Lol. Well, like they say (and I agree) never shoot unless you're behind cover anyway (unless they don't have guns).

20nickels
08-07-2011, 10:21 AM
Notice everybody poopooing on the 5.45 is taking the stance of defending a position. No shit you would prefer a larger caliber if you didn't have to haul it anywhere... Since going to war means going places and hauling lots of ammo without collapsing under it's weight the 5.45 is the perfect battle cartridge chambered.

Ivan1
08-07-2011, 10:53 AM
Why are you guys comparing the 5.45 ammo we use with the 5.45 ammo other countries use. I believe they use the newer 5.45 ammo that is better then the 70's 7n6. They have ammo piercing and what not.

CaptLink
08-07-2011, 11:32 AM
You guys have forgotten one thing in all your ballistic tables FPE charts velocities ect ect men are very easy to kill it don't take much otherwise Id still have all my friends.

TheGreek!
08-07-2011, 12:11 PM
Shit, I just bought another 1400 rounds of crap!



Are you not getting enough attention with your house thread that you have to throw it up here? Most of us could infiltrate that shit no prob,lol.


Sounds like you're jealous to me... :evil: ...This was the FIRST place I posed the pic by the way, the house thread was the second place after I decided to make a thread on it instead of talking about it in this one. Whats the matter, do ya live in an apartment? Awwwww, too bad you're gonnna die in the streets because you have nowhere safe and secure to run when TSHTF like I do....Your TALK is cheaper than the value of our money. "Most of us could infiltrate that shit no problem". Really? I'd like to see you try to infiltrate my place pal. Once again, your TALK is cheap, you would be killed long before you even GOT to the wall let alone got past it.......

TheGreek!
08-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Man. You guys really have no fucking clue do you about what it's like to be in combat. Good luck in your little "shtf" carrying around your .308 and your .500 magnums. Oh, and your .50's.

Bet none of you thought to bring an IFAK, CamelBak, good boots, or learn to run 5 miles. Much less, lack of killer instinct (it's easy to have one on the internet, a little different when there is someone in your crosshairs).

Good luck guys. Seriously.

Go ahead and find some good picture of Chechnya, Belsan, Grozny, Northern Caucases.


All using the 5.45.


*Yawns*


I'll carry 7.62x39 like they used to do instead, and yes, I have the boots, the camelback, etc., etc.,....Sorry, but you can talk all day about the 5.45, I still aint getting one and I still think it sucks for penetration and hitting power, period. Just because YOU fell for the hype doent mean that I have to suffer listening to how much "better"(?) that bb gun round is than a REAL round from people that fell for the hype about a bullet thats "approved" by the liberals in NATO because the soldier has a better chance of living through the hit (thats the REAL truth of the 5.45 round regardless of what they may say to the contrary because all libs are liars including the NATO libs). As far as "killer instinct" goes, lemme guess, you think you have the monopoly on that, right? You're in for a very rude awakening if thats what you beleive....

EPAPressure
08-07-2011, 02:19 PM
Ever been shot at? Didn't think so. Go have fun at the shooting range, where they don't shoot back.

There also may be a reason why Russia and most other combloc countries have used the 5.45 longer than they have the 7.62x39

Have fun dying. Faggot.


Owning a fIrearm does not make you a shooter, just like owning a piano does not make you a Musician.
Col. Jeff Cooper

Cy4ka
08-07-2011, 07:06 PM
I think it's fine to use the bigger calibers to protect your fortress in the dessert but if you have to go mobile, you'd really want to carry around a loadout of .50 or something?

TheGreek!
08-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Ever been shot at? Didn't think so. Go have fun at the shooting range, where they don't shoot back.

There also may be a reason why Russia and most other combloc countries have used the 5.45 longer than they have the 7.62x39

Have fun dying. Faggot.


Owning a fIrearm does not make you a shooter, just like owning a piano does not make you a Musician.
Col. Jeff Cooper



Ha Ha, the little punk is mad, waaaaaaah..... :evil: :evil:



Faggot? Is that all you have little boy?? Go back to mommys basement and play some more computer games...



*Yawns*

Zdeno
08-07-2011, 09:57 PM
amen my eastern european friend, knowledge in multiple platforms is excellent to have (fighting manual of arms, disassembly, reassembly and having the ability to know your weapons strengths and weaknesses). All the asshats who believe 9mm are "too weak", glocks suck, I hate the 5.45 or 5.56, .45 is the only handgun cartridge I will ever use, etc are essentially dumb asses. Its ok to have a preference to caliber/firearm but I hear this shit at my work everyday (I work with a part time cop who thinks 9mm and below are not even worthy of owning, only .40 or .45 and sneers/ridicules you for choosing such a platform total asshole and hated by everybody there btw) I dont get my panties in a bunch over handgun caliber anymore as shot placement is key for ANY caliber, now penetration/range is important to me though. Train, Train, and train some more then you will be truly effective with whatever you have.

Nothing wrong with 9mm, it's most likely taken more lives than any other handgun caliber around, and there's more handguns chambered for it than .45 ever will be, no chairborne ranger is going to change my mind about it being a capable round either.

It's also a good idea to learn some form of hand to hand combat, first aid, etc, that's what I'm currently working on.
You only live once, learn everything you can in the time you've got, never know when it will make a difference.

EPAPressure
08-10-2011, 11:59 AM
The amount of ignorance in this thread is amazing. Nobody has ever heard of Afghanistan? Or Chechnya? Or Beslan? Nobody?

A lot of people died by the 5.45. A LOT.

ElusiveSVT
08-10-2011, 12:35 PM
no chairborne ranger is going to change my mind about it being a capable round either.

.

he called you a chairborne ranger...hahahahaha.....i might have to start using that one.

TheGreek!
08-10-2011, 04:41 PM
The amount of ignorance in this thread is amazing. Nobody has ever heard of Afghanistan? Or Chechnya? Or Beslan? Nobody?

A lot of people died by the 5.45. A LOT.


Yes, agreed, your ignorance IS amazing.


Ever hear of WW1? WW2? Korea?


A lot MORE people died in those wars, and guess what? Yep, not a 5.45 peashooter anywhere....Vietnam was the first war to show us how ineffective a peashooter round is when the .223 was introduced...The NATO libs loved it so they started pushing peashooters on its members ever since which then brought us the 5.56 and the 5.45...

EPAPressure
08-10-2011, 07:38 PM
Ineffective? Dude....we killed over a million Vietnamese in that war. Opposed to our 52 thousand.

The soviets saw how effective it was, AND COPIED IT! HOW DO YOU NOT GET THIS? HOW DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND THE WORDS I AM TYPING? ARE YOU REALLY, REALLY THAT DULL? THERE IS NO SIMPLER WAY TO EXPLAIN IT.

Nato libs? Are you kidding me? Britain and the rest of Europe were using .308 until the 80's when they found out that hauling around a large caliber like that in a waste of energy, since most firefights occur within 300 yards. But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

The Russians have even been using the 5.45 LONGER than the 7.62x39, could be a reason for it.... I wonder....

EDIT: Nice 5th grade comeback on calling me ignorant with my own words. Really, really clever. Got any good fart jokes?

TheGreek!
08-10-2011, 08:13 PM
Whats this, the child now pretending to be the adult?? What a laugh...Die already, go away.

Zdeno
08-10-2011, 08:32 PM
Whats this, the child now pretending to be the adult?? What a laugh...Die already, go away.

The only person I see acting like a child is you, to be entirely honest, we get the fact you like your 7.62x39 but don't waste pages and pages arguing about how your setup and ammo is better and blahblahblah, it's not your life at stake over an "ineffective round" so don't worry about it.

Also, you're more than welcome to go stand in the field and get hit by a couple 5.45 rounds, since it's so ineffective you should survive, then you can form your opinion and come relay it to us and then you'll really have bragging rights.

Otherwise, we don't care, so cram your opinion back down your throat instead of ours.

TheGreek!
08-10-2011, 11:22 PM
The only person I see acting like a child is you, to be entirely honest, we get the fact you like your 7.62x39 but don't waste pages and pages arguing about how your setup and ammo is better and blahblahblah, it's not your life at stake over an "ineffective round" so don't worry about it.

Also, you're more than welcome to go stand in the field and get hit by a couple 5.45 rounds, since it's so ineffective you should survive, then you can form your opinion and come relay it to us and then you'll really have bragging rights.

Otherwise, we don't care, so cram your opinion back down your throat instead of ours.


So why are you here responding if you dont care, hmmmm?? :evil:

You're here because you're just like the rest, you cant resist a fight and will chime in just to keep it going and tell me if I'm wrong.... :evil:

Zdeno
08-10-2011, 11:27 PM
So why are you here responding if you dont care, hmmmm?? :evil:

You're here because you're just like the rest, you cant resist a fight and will chime in just to keep it going and tell me if I'm wrong.... :evil:

Because I take issue with people like yourself using multiple pages of forum space to act like a moron with pointless arguing and bickering like a small child in an otherwise civil thread. :smile_sma

TheGreek!
08-10-2011, 11:32 PM
Because I take issue with people like yourself using multiple pages of forum space to act like a moron with pointless arguing and bickering like a small child in an otherwise civil thread. :smile_sma


And why should that matter to you? I'm not the one argueing by the way, if you'll look back you'll see that 99% of my posts are responses to morons saying something to and/or about me first so now whats your excuse for coming down on me about my reponses to them, huh?? :evil:

Zdeno
08-10-2011, 11:41 PM
And why should that matter to you? I'm not the one argueing by the way, if you'll look back you'll see that 99% of my posts are responses to morons saying something to and/or about me first so now whats your excuse for coming down on me about my reponses to them, huh?? :evil:

I already did.
In all the posts I only see you acting as the antagonist and posting off topic crap that doesn't contribute anything worth a damn to the thread itself.

That's my excuse.

TheGreek!
08-11-2011, 12:24 AM
Yeah, whatever...I like a good fight, its hard to resist... :evil: :evil:


But thats ok, I'm done in this thread, there aint much more left to say in it anyway.... :evil:

insider
08-11-2011, 01:24 AM
The 545x39 is a nice little round, very accurate, very destructive, very good for close combat, however, for a serious SHTF situation, a 7.62x51 (.308) is my choice for a main battle rifle. After seeing first hand in Afghanistan the limitations of the 556 and 545 round, .308 holes make invisible souls!

Cy4ka
08-11-2011, 01:30 AM
for a serious SHTF situation, a 7.62x51 (.308) is my choice

No way, it's .17HMR hands down! :P

TheGreek!
08-11-2011, 01:50 AM
The 545x39 is a nice little round, very accurate, very destructive, very good for close combat, however, for a serious SHTF situation, a 7.62x51 (.308) is my choice for a main battle rifle. After seeing first hand in Afghanistan the limitations of the 556 and 545 round, .308 holes make invisible souls!


At last, someone else making sense, someone with actual COMBAT EXPERIENCE with a 5.45, what a breath of fresh air for this thread... :rofl_smal :rofl_smal


Please explain the limitations of the round for all those that are saying its the best thing since sliced bread since the only person they will accept hearing it from is someone thats used it in battle. I can talk all day about it and they wont hear me at all...Given the choice, would would you rather carry a 5.45x39 into battle or a 7.62x39 into battle and why? Elaborate more on the .308 too, I have a couple 1919's in .308... :evil:

TheGreek!
08-13-2011, 02:32 PM
THE FINAL WORD ON THE SUBJECT: :evil: :evil:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGcnQrLZgq0&feature=related

bovver
08-13-2011, 03:53 PM
THE FINAL WORD ON THE SUBJECT: :evil: :evil:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGcnQrLZgq0&feature=related

This is not 7.62 or 5.45.....?
But the 5.56,someone brought up viet nam.
Look up how many rounds were fired per one kill.
No thanks I will pass on the 5.56/.223 round.

It just comes down to what you want to drive.
both will kill.

KernelKrink
08-13-2011, 05:46 PM
This is not 7.62 or 5.45.....?
But the 5.56,someone brought up viet nam.
Look up how many rounds were fired per one kill.
No thanks I will pass on the 5.56/.223 round.

It just comes down to what you want to drive.
both will kill.
What does the caliber have to do with hitting a target? If anything, the 5.56 is one of the most "shootable" rounds as it has low recoil and good accuracy, you can even control it fairly decent in short bursts. Except for long range use, you're just as likely if not more so to hit a combatant with the lighter rounds. Even in WWII with the .30-06 in use the shot to kill ratio was something like 10,000 to 1. The increase for Vietnam is most likely due to everbody having a "happy switch" on their rifles.

TheGreek!
08-13-2011, 07:04 PM
What does the caliber have to do with hitting a target? If anything, the 5.56 is one of the most "shootable" rounds as it has low recoil and good accuracy, you can even control it fairly decent in short bursts. Except for long range use, you're just as likely if not more so to hit a combatant with the lighter rounds. Even in WWII with the .30-06 in use the shot to kill ratio was something like 10,000 to 1. The increase for Vietnam is most likely due to everbody having a "happy switch" on their rifles.


What about all the "happy switches" on the WW1/2/korea guns? Did they not use them? Anyway, the caliber doesnt have anything to do with hitting the target, it has everything to do with stopping/killing it instead. I'll risk a 5.45 hit before I risk a hit from that hand held howitzer. Tell me something, if you were wearing the best body armor out there what do think it will feel like when a 5.45 hits it? Now tell me what you think it will feel like if the .500 magnum hits it. You wont be able to, it'll punch right through the best body armor. Even if it couldnt, the impact force alone will cause major internal damage. Kinda like getting hit by a car. Thats the whole idea behind it, a gun that WILL do the job no matter what the bad guy has on for armor. Most gunfights are at close range anyway. I would want a handgun for that situation, not a long bulky rifle on a sling w/a scope. Also, when ya walk into a store if you live in an area that allows open carry which gun do you think will make you feel less like a freak in public, an AK on your back or with a pistol in a holster? :rofl_smal Before I spend a grand on a colt AR-15 .223 or .556 peashooter and a sling I'll spend the same money on a S&W .500 howitzer and a holster. Like I said, the chances are much better of getting into a close combat fight than a long range one and in that case I want big caliber rifle power in a handgun package.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGcnQrLZgq0&feature=related

bovver
08-13-2011, 08:57 PM
What does the caliber have to do with hitting a target? If anything, the 5.56 is one of the most "shootable" rounds as it has low recoil and good accuracy, you can even control it fairly decent in short bursts. Except for long range use, you're just as likely if not more so to hit a combatant with the lighter rounds. Even in WWII with the .30-06 in use the shot to kill ratio was something like 10,000 to 1. The increase for Vietnam is most likely due to everbody having a "happy switch" on their rifles.
To me its like this,9mm or .45.
I will take the .45 and put someone down in one shot where the 9mm might take 3-4 shots.
I know I know,we can split hairs on head shots etc. but lets be real in real life.
look at how many people in the thug world who have been shot with a 9mm and have 3-4-5 scars from where they were shot with a 9.
.45 on the other hand,not so many.

All are good rounds and I would not want to get shot with a 5.56 myself.
I am just not a fan of it,you could argue the lethal power of the .22,still not the round Im going to pick.

tallpaleandugly
08-13-2011, 09:00 PM
I am not sure why everyone is getting so crazy about this. For open spaces, like mountain ranges, open field country, where there is 300-600 yards of open space or really anywhere that I have to carry a months worth of ammo you should take the 5.45/5.56 for their effective range/bullet weight/accuracy. For open spaces where the range regularly goes out to 800+ yards(light cover or not) than a .308/.338/30-06/7.62x54r etc for their range and power. For urban combat, jungles, heavy wooded areas, or any area where there are short ranges where penetration is important then the 7.62x39 round is ideal. There is no 1 perfect round for everything and argueing about it is just silly. I would trust my life with any of the rounds you fellows have been argueing about. But for the record I would rather get shot once by a 9mm than in the same spot by a .45.

TheGreek!
08-14-2011, 12:14 AM
I am not sure why everyone is getting so crazy about this. For open spaces, like mountain ranges, open field country, where there is 300-600 yards of open space or really anywhere that I have to carry a months worth of ammo you should take the 5.45/5.56 for their effective range/bullet weight/accuracy. For open spaces where the range regularly goes out to 800+ yards(light cover or not) than a .308/.338/30-06/7.62x54r etc for their range and power. For urban combat, jungles, heavy wooded areas, or any area where there are short ranges where penetration is important then the 7.62x39 round is ideal. There is no 1 perfect round for everything and argueing about it is just silly. I would trust my life with any of the rounds you fellows have been argueing about. But for the record I would rather get shot once by a 9mm than in the same spot by a .45.


Imagine what getting shot in that spot with the .50 magnum would be like...How many shots do you think it would take to cut a zombie in half with it?? :evil:

tallpaleandugly
08-14-2011, 08:14 AM
Imagine what getting shot in that spot with the .50 magnum would be like...How many shots do you think it would take to cut a zombie in half with it?? :evil:

I would rather not imagine that thank you very much. But incase of a zombie attack (which we all secretely hope is how the end will happen) I would rather carry 20 rounds of ballistic tip 5.7 (which is the only situation I would use the 5.7) for less weight than the 5 rounds of .50 magnum and strive for head shots. Now zombie bears, that is a different story. And can you imagine lining some zombies up in a hallway and putting a couple .50 rounds down range at head level? Makes you feel all tingly inside... But then again if you are in a strong defensive position you don't have to worry about carrying a half ton of ammo it really just depends on personal preferences.

bovver
08-14-2011, 09:01 AM
I am not sure why everyone is getting so crazy about this. For open spaces, like mountain ranges, open field country, where there is 300-600 yards of open space or really anywhere that I have to carry a months worth of ammo you should take the 5.45/5.56 for their effective range/bullet weight/accuracy. For open spaces where the range regularly goes out to 800+ yards(light cover or not) than a .308/.338/30-06/7.62x54r etc for their range and power. For urban combat, jungles, heavy wooded areas, or any area where there are short ranges where penetration is important then the 7.62x39 round is ideal. There is no 1 perfect round for everything and argueing about it is just silly. I would trust my life with any of the rounds you fellows have been argueing about. But for the record I would rather get shot once by a 9mm than in the same spot by a .45.
I think you said it best.
What would work best in one area might not work out well in another.
I live in the south,lots of trees and cover,most shots will be well under 300,might as well say 200 yards.
so for that reason when I moved here I went with the 7.62x39.
It should be said that I will be moving to AZ in a year and will be needing something for a little further.
I have just got into the 5.45 because of this.

And my all around back up is the 7.62x54r in a PSL.

regal557
08-14-2011, 10:55 AM
The 5.45x39 is my choice caliber, mainly because of cheap high quality ammo. I could be wrong but the 7.62x39 selling on the domestic market is maybe not as reliable as military issue 7n6? Plus we have the new state of the art polymer bulgarian 45 round mags, thats a lot of cheap fire power. The argument of a .500 S&W revolver stopping an engine block is impressive, but at $2 a round and 30 second target aquisition after each round make it slow and cumbersome. Its not about ft/lbs per round its: (( ft-lbs* rounds) per second)* divided by round cost, weight, and dud percentage.

I like the Aims-74, even though it is heavier than an M4 its just much cheaper to feed. If quality 5.56 ammo didn't cost 3x as much as 7n6 it would be a different story. I think the current 7n6 prices are incredible and folks that aren't buying cans one day will regret just as we regret not buying more try military surplus 7.62 when it was cheap.

I think a Mosin M38 carbine would serve the purpose of this .500 S&W (disabling engine blocks/armor) at a much lower cost. I just can't see average income folks like myself paying $2 per round, that pistol is for weathly guided big game hunters, thats why it was developed. I like the idea of side arm that can break thru an engine block to compliment the Aims-74&M4 but I think an M38 slung over the back would do just as good. For a whole lot less money and faster repear shots.

I guess I agree on one thing about the engine block stopping capability, that would be nice in an EOTWAWKI situation, but I'm unsure of the .500 S&W as being the best option. Lets face it most people can't even shoot the thing its so heavy.

KernelKrink
08-14-2011, 12:18 PM
What about all the "happy switches" on the WW1/2/korea guns? Did they not use them? Anyway, the caliber doesnt have anything to do with hitting the target, it has everything to do with stopping/killing it instead. I'll risk a 5.45 hit before I risk a hit from that hand held howitzer. Tell me something, if you were wearing the best body armor out there what do think it will feel like when a 5.45 hits it? Now tell me what you think it will feel like if the .500 magnum hits it. You wont be able to, it'll punch right through the best body armor. Even if it couldnt, the impact force alone will cause major internal damage. Kinda like getting hit by a car. Thats the whole idea behind it, a gun that WILL do the job no matter what the bad guy has on for armor. Most gunfights are at close range anyway. I would want a handgun for that situation, not a long bulky rifle on a sling w/a scope. Also, when ya walk into a store if you live in an area that allows open carry which gun do you think will make you feel less like a freak in public, an AK on your back or with a pistol in a holster? :rofl_smal Before I spend a grand on a colt AR-15 .223 or .556 peashooter and a sling I'll spend the same money on a S&W .500 howitzer and a holster. Like I said, the chances are much better of getting into a close combat fight than a long range one and in that case I want big caliber rifle power in a handgun package.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGcnQrLZgq0&feature=related
Greek, the standard US issued rifles for WWI were bolt actions, the only MGs were either heavy tripod mounted guns that were limited in number, or "machine rifles" that were also in limited use. WWII saw the introduction of the Garand, again not a full auto weapon. While M2 carbines and various subguns were issued, the vast majority of troops carried semi autos, not MGs. There were typically only a few BAR gunners in any unit and again heavy MGs on tripods were rare compared to the Garand. Korea was the same, more M2s probably but the average GI still carried a Garand.

Vietnam was the first war where the general issued rifle was capable of FA fire with the introduction of the M16. Also, with the jungle environment and the tactics of the enemy (and ours, "recon by fire" ring a bell?), many rounds were fired with no results other than a pile of empties. That is one of the reasons the US went to the 3 shot burst limiter on modern rifles, to conserve ammo and prevent mag dumps into empty air.

There are also studies that state only about 2-4% of GIs actually "shoot to kill" in a combat sitch. Many admit they fired over their heads or deliberately missed as they did not want to kill anyone. Now, faced with a one on one, kill or be killed sitch, I'm sure that percentage would jump drastically, but for a typical enagement where this group of guys is shooting at that group of guys over there they may be right. The standard counter tactic to this in the past was to "demonize" the enemy, which was most apparent in WWII. IIRC, over 75% of the US populace wanted to "wipe out the Japs" at the time due to their actions at Pearl Harbor and their being "different" than us. OTOH, much less wanted the same for the Germans, no direct attack and they were "just like us". You see evidence of this even today, with reports of child porn and such on the computers of people the government goes after. Remember, the agencies at the Waco attack alledged a Meth Lab and child abuse before and during the seige, with no proof of either.

As far as a pistol versus a rifle goes, different situations require different armaments. To use Vietnam as an example, in downtown Saigon off duty, a GI would usually carry just a handgun or knife as personal protection, more street crime than a VC attack was likely. A stainless steel Chiefs Special was a highly desired item back then, rust free and small for discreet carry under a Hawaiian shirt. On patrol in the jungle, he would probably still have the .38 tucked away, but only a fool would knowingly go into combat armed only with a handgun. I carry a handgun every day because I know it's better than nothing, and the likelihood of me having to actually use it is pretty low if I do my part. Were I to know for sure, or with a high probablity that I was going into a gunfight, I would be carrying a rifle or shotgun and a couple handguns, all with plenty of spare mags.

"Stopping Power" is all we are interested in, killing is irrelevant to a combat or self defense situation. You want to stop them, period. Death is just one way of stopping them. The number one sure thing that stops people is a direct hit to one of several areas on the body. As long as a round can be accurate enough to hit those spots and powerful enough to penetrate and do some damage, it is "enough". "More than enough" factors in when the hit is less than perfect, but all that does is expand the "Good Enough" circle around those vital areas. Even good hits with high powered rounds do not always stop: mindset, drugs/alcohol/ and physical condition can all conspire to make a person a "bullet sponge" who absorbs dozens of rounds and keeps on fighting. There are many documented Police shootings where a guy high on drugs or rage is shot many times, even with shotgun slugs, and continues to fight before a direct headshot or a bleedout stops him. There are no guarantees, only probabilities.

Carrying Dirty Harry's dream gun only ensures your first shot has a better chance of stopping someone over a lesser caliber. The drawbacks are many, the benefit is only the sheer power of the round. With todays criminal environment often involving multiple perps, I want a controllable semi auto with a large magazine capacity, not a hand cannon that takes out the first guy (and anybody standing behind him) while leaving me vulnerable to his buddies as I recover from recoil.

Everybody has to do their own mental calculations when it comes to armaments. They plug in the numbers for the various situations they foresee, how well they can shoot a particular gun/caliber, ammo capacity, etc. The answer that comes out the far end of the equation is usually different for everybody. If it was the same, we would all carry the same guns and these forums would be a pretty dull place!

77patriots
08-14-2011, 12:44 PM
most firefights occur within 300 yards > True , handgun engagments are 15 feet and low light conditions, and your first three rounds are off to the side and a waste.


I will take 308 over any thing. , however 5.x45x39 is very lethal on a human.
I have SEEN its effects.. on tissue damage and arterial bleeding.

Yes, 7.62x39 leaves a soda can hole in a humans back side!
it hits like a hammer and is called the "bone crusher".
if using 7.62x39 I would shoot center mass -- chest brest bone, spine and transfer all that energy into hard bone and spine so the energy transfer is at max.

same for 308.

5.45x39-- awesome arterial wounds. tends to keep a tighter grouping. tends to stay in the body and find some serious tissue damage after 6 to 8 inches into a body. if you want the bad guy to bleed out before he gets to the hospital use 5.45x39 .
if you want to drop him like a door mat, hit him center mass with a 308 or 762x39.

30-06 is still the best! even better then 308.

Mr.Mikial AK himself is pissed about the 5.45x39 from his 7.62x39 ( 308 short)...but some of that could be some ego too.
I suggest you read some books put out by the former soviet troopers who invaded Afghanistan and see what cartrige they liked better and why.

when they were not keeping down from the lee Enfeild brit 303 rounds taking them out at 700 and 800 yards away
give me an m1 garand in 30-06 and i'll give you the gun the enemy was previously holding

TheGreek!
08-14-2011, 01:38 PM
So, when TSHTF everybody is only gonna have ONE gun with/on them? I'll have the .50 in a holster and a folder AK on my back when I'm out and about. If the AK cant do it the .50 will...I got so many freakin guns I dont know what the hell to carry at this point. A Draco? An RPK? Mosin? PSL? Taurus judge? 12 gauge? Tec-9? MAC-10? Browning 1919?? Tommy gun? I have them all. What should I carry? The Brownings would be a bit too heavy to carry I think, they're going on the roof instead when TSHTF.... :rofl_smal

For KernelKrink

Ever hear of the Thompson? The grease gun? The Sten? We were not just carrying bolt action rifles in WW2, in fact I'll bet that more troops had sub guns than bolt actions. The snipers had the bolt actions. Whenever I see WW2 footage I see a LOT more subguns than bolt actions....WW1 might have had a mostly bolt actions but not WW2...

KernelKrink
08-14-2011, 03:25 PM
For KernelKrink

Ever hear of the Thompson? The grease gun? The Sten? We were not just carrying bolt action rifles in WW2, in fact I'll bet that more troops had sub guns than bolt actions. The snipers had the bolt actions. Whenever I see WW2 footage I see a LOT more subguns than bolt actions....SMGs have always been seen by the military as "specialty" guns, not a general issue item. Their limited range makes them unsuitable for anything much beyond CQB. Until recently, war was planned and executed by the USA as a long range affair, hence the prevalence of full powered battle rifles until the adoption of the 5.56 in Vietnam.

The standard issued US Army rifle in WWII was the Garand, a semi automatic 8 shot rifle. The Springfield bolt gun was issued to snipers, as well as the USMC as they had not adopted the Garand at the start of the war. Same for the Navy. Remington and Smith-Corona were producing them for issue alongside the Garand until 1944. Production of arms lagged behind demand, so it was not uncommon for Springfields to turn up as alternate issue everywhere. The Brits used the SMLE bolt action as their primary rifle. Subguns of various types were issued to troops as well, but in small numbers, the Brits excepted as the STEN was one viable option to re-arm after Dunkirk. SMG primary issue outside the Brits was to paratroopers, Tankers, and others whose job primarily did not include shooting a rifle at the enemy. The M2 variant of the M1 carbine came out in April 1945, so its use was very limited. As was the M3, first issued to combat troops in late 1944. The Reising isn't even worth looking up, they were withdrawn from front line service in 1943 due to poor performance, the ones actually issued were discarded as quickly as anything else became available.


WWII production figures for the following arms:

M1 Carbine: 6.5 million
M1 Garand: 6 million
SMLE: 16 million produced when Britain stopped production in 1956. 3.8 million made in WWI alone. Can't find WWII production figures.

Springfield: 1+ million produced during WWII, plus existing stocks from the pre-war years and WWI. Production in WWII started with serial # 3 million.



STENGUNS: 4.5 million
M3 Greaseguns: 662,663
Tommyguns: 1.5 million



So roughly as many US and Brit SMGs were made during WWII as M1 Carbines. That means at least 7 million more US made rifles than SMGs, and an unknown number of bolt guns in the Brits hands, as well as leftover WWI Springfields. A lot of the SMGs were issued to non-combat troops and combat troops got the lions share of the rifles. Do the math, most people that actually shot at the enemy did not have FA. Vietnam, every M16 had the FA switch and they used it!

tallpaleandugly
08-14-2011, 05:43 PM
I think you said it best.
What would work best in one area might not work out well in another.
I live in the south,lots of trees and cover,most shots will be well under 300,might as well say 200 yards.
so for that reason when I moved here I went with the 7.62x39.
It should be said that I will be moving to AZ in a year and will be needing something for a little further.
I have just got into the 5.45 because of this.

And my all around back up is the 7.62x54r in a PSL.


I came to the same conclusion. I just moved to North Florida and decided that the 7.62x39 was the best round overall for me, though I have tons of respect for the 5.45. But in close quarters I would like the instant stopping power of the 7.62 at close range. Hoping to get a .308 remington 700 if I go up to the North West again.

TheGreek!
08-14-2011, 09:34 PM
And can you imagine lining some zombies up in a hallway and putting a couple .50 rounds down range at head level? Makes you feel all tingly inside...


Yes, it does... :evil: ...Even waist level would be cool. I'd be curious to see how many shots it takes to cut the line of zombies in half at the waist... :evil: ...My guess would be about 3 depending on how deep the line is... :evil:

TheGreek!
08-14-2011, 10:02 PM
SMGs have always been seen by the military as "specialty" guns, not a general issue item. Their limited range makes them unsuitable for anything much beyond CQB. Until recently, war was planned and executed by the USA as a long range affair, hence the prevalence of full powered battle rifles until the adoption of the 5.56 in Vietnam.

The standard issued US Army rifle in WWII was the Garand, a semi automatic 8 shot rifle. The Springfield bolt gun was issued to snipers, as well as the USMC as they had not adopted the Garand at the start of the war. Same for the Navy. Remington and Smith-Corona were producing them for issue alongside the Garand until 1944. Production of arms lagged behind demand, so it was not uncommon for Springfields to turn up as alternate issue everywhere. The Brits used the SMLE bolt action as their primary rifle. Subguns of various types were issued to troops as well, but in small numbers, the Brits excepted as the STEN was one viable option to re-arm after Dunkirk. SMG primary issue outside the Brits was to paratroopers, Tankers, and others whose job primarily did not include shooting a rifle at the enemy. The M2 variant of the M1 carbine came out in April 1945, so its use was very limited. As was the M3, first issued to combat troops in late 1944. The Reising isn't even worth looking up, they were withdrawn from front line service in 1943 due to poor performance, the ones actually issued were discarded as quickly as anything else became available.


WWII production figures for the following arms:

M1 Carbine: 6.5 million
M1 Garand: 6 million
SMLE: 16 million produced when Britain stopped production in 1956. 3.8 million made in WWI alone. Can't find WWII production figures.

Springfield: 1+ million produced during WWII, plus existing stocks from the pre-war years and WWI. Production in WWII started with serial # 3 million.



STENGUNS: 4.5 million
M3 Greaseguns: 662,663
Tommyguns: 1.5 million



So roughly as many US and Brit SMGs were made during WWII as M1 Carbines. That means at least 7 million more US made rifles than SMGs, and an unknown number of bolt guns in the Brits hands, as well as leftover WWI Springfields. A lot of the SMGs were issued to non-combat troops and combat troops got the lions share of the rifles. Do the math, most people that actually shot at the enemy did not have FA. Vietnam, every M16 had the FA switch and they used it!


I'll still stick to my "guns" and say that bigger is better when it comes to caliber...Modern day armies wear body armor, and the 5.45 is simply ineffective against it, the hit just isnt hard enough to severely injure the solder and take him out of the fight if the armor stops the bullet....

20nickels
08-15-2011, 01:48 PM
I'll still stick to my "guns" and say that bigger is better when it comes to caliber...

Then why not go bigger than what you have? Is there a point where bigger is not better?

TheGreek!
08-15-2011, 02:15 PM
Not that I can think of unless you plan to eat what you shoot, if the targets are real small a big gun will vaporize it....Dont shoot a rabbit with a .50, there wont be nothing left of it to eat... :rofl_smal ...However, I will agree that when it comes to the price of the stuff bigger is not better... :rofl_smal

20nickels
08-15-2011, 02:48 PM
Not that I can think of unless you plan to eat what you shoot, if the targets are real small a big gun will vaporize it....Dont shoot a rabbit with a .50, there wont be nothing left of it to eat... :rofl_smal ...However, I will agree that when it comes to the price of the stuff bigger is not better... :rofl_smal

Just wanted to hear it. BTW Rabbits = head shots... unless they are attacking you.

20nickels
08-15-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm sticking a fork in this one.

Zdeno
08-16-2011, 06:03 PM
The Results:

Open Range, 200 to 700 yards = .308, 5.45x39 or 5.56x45.

Urban/Close Range, below 200 yards = 7.62x39.

Tyrannosaurus Rex = You're fucked.

77patriots
08-16-2011, 06:39 PM
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