Which AR manufacturer is worth a damn??

Which AR manufacturer is worth a damn??

DPMS, Rock River, Stag, Bushmaster, CMMG, or Double Star?

What is the best bang for the buck?

Rock River Arms, CMMG, or Double Star any good?

How would you rate them?

From what I have seen, all the upper and lower receivers are the same. Finish notwothstanding. I assembled two Double Star lowers and one Rock River in the last few months. Same same.

Bolt and carriers differ, but not enough to care unless you are into service rifle or extreme accuracy or FA work.

Barrels matter. How much is again, up to what you are doing with them. I bought a complete upper, barrel, bolt and carrier from Model 1 sales last year. Put it on a Double Star lower, Rock River "match" gutz, mounted a Leupold 4 x 12 VX III. Yesterday , shooting handloaded 55 Gr Sierra GameKings I posted two groups under an inch at 100 and two under 1 1/2". 1:9 Crome Moly heavy barrel, free float tube.

The A2 is on a Double Star Lower, Double Star gutz, RRA upper, ER Shaw 1:9 HBAR profile barrel. This is a "DCM Legal" for service rifle matches unit. It shoots far better than I can with iron sights. I have shot <3" groups from prone with it at 100 yards and under 8" at 200.

The Rock River lower got a complete Rock RIver upper (as marketed, see comment about uppers and lowers) I suspect the barrel is an ER Shaw or equal. The lower kit was DPMS. The trigger was grungy a little bit not bad. This one was a carbine build for my son in the USAF.

One of the CMMG bargain rifles that are going for under $500 are as good as it gets for the average blaster shooter. They are a great base for getting into the game.

I own a DPMS ar & have no complaints. I have owned it for a year and have yet to have any problems. I have a Stag T2 on layaway at the funstore as well and have heard good things about them as well. Sig Sauer AR's are pricey but great guns as well. As with all hobbies, it's all about the dough you are willing to spend and how anal do you wanna get!

I know guys that are strictly Colt & in their opinion everything else is junk etc. Whatever, to each his own. Not everyone has the bank account for "original" Colt's or Armalites etc. I definitely don't fall into the cadillac group but hey, if that's what you want & you've got the coin...rock on!

DPMS has some great "entry level" rifles as far as price is concerned: www.dpmsinc.com

I have heard that Olympic AR's are more to the garbage side QC-wise but I stress; this is what I have HEARD. I have no firsthand experience with them.

Do your research, get one in your hands and see if it feels right to you...if it does then buy it and enjoy it! Remember, the ONLY person that needs to be pleased with your purchase is YOU!
Once you've done your homework it will be increasingly more about wether you want to pay for the branding or do you wanna pay for a good AR?!

Prophet out.

Yeah, I'm the Colt fan.

Expensive and right now, unless you buy a complete rifle you are going to get screwed on parts. You can no longer get Colt parts anywhere I am aware except SAWLESales. BOHICA.
Prior to that I would have at least recommended a Colt bolt.

Most of the manufacturers you mention have serious issues. Yeah they build some good rifles, yeah it probably depends on how much you plan on shooting them.

Bushmaster would be at the top of the list you present IMO. Rock River Arms and then perhaps Stag next.

You can get crap from any of them and CMMG and DPMS seem to have a lot of issues--based on what I read.
No, I haven't had either because I wouldn't buy either.

Would you buy a Yugo automobile because someone you know just bought it and liked it?
Maybe you would, I wouldn't.

Now, when it comes to the lower, and even just the upper rec, it is probably not a very big deal and most all are fine, I think.

Bolt, bbl and FCG are another matter.

I'd go Bushy and then make sure the carrier key is properly staked.

And good mags also--sure you know that.



Colt is still worth the money, IMO and if you look around you can get them occassionally for a price that is not all that much more than the Bushy or RRA--worth the extra IMO.

YMMV

Just a FYI--by the time you start buying Colt parts you can get a rifle for a much better price.

I'd look at the LE 6920
IMO the jury is still out on the piston driven ARs.

If you look around for parts you can do okay building your own but concentrate on BBL, bolt, FCG--I would try not to skimp on those.

Bachman pawn in dallas has colt 6920 for $1089. Best bang for the buck. Easily resellable if worst comes to worst.
See their ad at sturmgewehr

Bachman pawn in dallas has colt 6920 for $1089. Best bang for the buck. Easily resellable if worst comes to worst.
See their ad at sturmgewehr
For 1089 I'd be all over that if I were looking.
That isn't much more than the others, or even comparable.



Make certain it is NIB, has a FA carrier.
I'd try not to buy one with the halfmoon carrier.

IMO the jury is still out on the piston driven ARs.

If you look around for parts you can do okay building your own but concentrate on BBL, bolt, FCG--I would try not to skimp on those.One thing the jury has agreed on. Piston rifles have a built in weight penalty. If you're a fan of that lightness, you won't find it in a piston rifle. For the use most of us (99.9%) put an AR to, I see a piston action as being unnecessary. Feel free to loudly disagree.

Lowell

If you want to get anal, see how you can find a way to buy an FN contract one.

Colt's suck.

Ask anyone in the sandbox just now.

Colt's suck.

Ask anyone in the sandbox just now.
I'd like to hear more about that.

One thing the jury has agreed on. Piston rifles have a built in weight penalty. If you're a fan of that lightness, you won't find it in a piston rifle. For the use most of us (99.9%) put an AR to, I see a piston action as being unnecessary. Feel free to loudly disagree.

Lowell
I don't disagree at all.

Most around here drink the gas piston kool-aid though.

Sig556. I have a Bushmaster and I shoot the Sig every time

You will hear a lot of the "Internet experts" make various claims about various AR's. I'm convinced 95% is pure BS based mostly on personal opinions.

For example, I had an Olympic Arms Plinker Plus for a couple years. Now, according to all those experts on the Internet, my Oly was supposed to just turn into dust or something the second I fired it. I only sold it 2,000 accurate, problem-free rounds later to upgrade to a nicer rifle. But for the purpose for which is was bought (casual shooting), it was more than adequate. It was actually a nice little rifle.

Face it: People like to bash inexpensive guns. It's sorta fashionable on gun boards to proclaim that any cheap gun is obviously garbage. Sometimes that bashing is deserved. But often, it isn't.

Get whatever looks good, and is inexpensive. As long as you don't intend to take it into combat, you'll probably be good with whatever you get.

Oh, and as for the piston AR debate...I'm all for 'em. Having served 10 years in the Army, I know first-hand that the AR15/M16 DI design is NOT "just fine". I don't care what anyone says...dumping hot, fouling gas into the receiver of a firearm is not a good design. It increases the chances of filth-related malfunctions, as I witnessed countless times. A properly made piston AR will eliminate this problem entirely.

Personally, I think the SIG556 is a "best of both worlds" gun. I fired one a few weeks ago, and was surprised that the gun was not at all front heavy. I had always been told that it was, but the SIG556 Classic I fired was nicely balanced. So nice, in fact, that it's next on my shopping list.

Trotsky, read this:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169

Mostly just read the posts by Pat Rogers--he stopped on about p23. Just reading his posts won't take long.

Then, if you buy one, do a search for another article by Rogers--"Keep it Running".
If you can't find it I can email the file to you.

No, it's not an AK but they have advantages also and are fine rifles. If you skimp, you may get a fine rifle, you may get a hunk of junk. Odds of having a good rilfe that lasts, runs and holds up to hard use, goes up with buying a better rifle out of the box.
As it so often the case, you get what you pay for.

Ive had my RRA LAR-15 Entry Tactical for about 2 years and love it. No problems what so ever. Use good brass, no wolf crap. I use Remington UMC 55gr. Great round and cheap at Wal-Mart, $8 for a box of 20rds.

Just make sure that you get an AR chambered in 5.56 and not .223. If its chambered in .223, dont use 5.56.

Well I tell ya I own Colts and Olympic Arms ARs and have had no problems at all. I've put a ton of rounds down the pipes no issues. Buy what you like but make sure you get a life time warranty as Colt, Olympic arms, armalite, and others have.

Go here for more help:
http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Wow, thanks guys!

Your responses were much more detailed than I expected.

All opinions and knowledge are duly noted and greatly appreciated.

I guess I have some reading to do.....


Oh, I'm thinking M4/A3 upper.

What about those new fangled detachable front and rear sights? Them things any good? I'll probably just stick with a traditional front sight post, but I want some sort of back up for a red dot, should it fail when I'm fighting Zombies and other monsters seen in the movies and on the SciFi channel.

LMT or Noveske. Seen 'em. Shot 'em. The best. Extremely reliable. Extremely accurate. But you'll pay SIG556 ++ prices for a complete DI AR. If I was going in harms way it's what I'd pick if I had the money. To bad I don't.

I have a Bushmaster, had a few minor issues (mostly poor/inadequate/missing staking) but after working it over it has been 100%. My 6.8 SPC upper is RRA and had the same issues. Nothing you can't fix.

You could buy 2.5 Bushmasters for the price of a Noveske and close to that for an LMT...

LMT does have good gear.
No idea what to say about Noveske except they have a good rep.
I had a few LMT bolts and had to send one back. Stuck with Colts after that.

I have a Bushy--carrier key came loose from improper staking to carrier. Other than that has run just freakin great.

Had a RRA--okay. Couple of minor issues that I easily rectified. Ended up selling that off.

I have a lot of different lowers but most all the other parts on all but 2 of them are Colt.

I have a bravocompany midlength on one of them and it is alright. Not as great as everyone makes them sound.

I've leaned Colt and LMT for the most part.

-You can get LMT uppers for a good price right now.
Then get almost any decent lower.
-Stag LPK
-Colt bolt if you can find
-Stock---I have a Bravo company collapsible stock and it is a nice peice of gear. It's going on one of my lowers one of these days.

I'm not sure what the difference is in LPKs from one to another. Not much in MOST cases, I suppose.

It really depends what you want.

My son has an M4 built as I note above. It is absolutely kickass.
His also has a magpul M93A stock and an RAS handguard. I had a perm phantom FH affixed to the 14.5"bbl.
yeah, it is smokin' hot.

I've had my Del-ton for about 2 years with maybe 1k rounds down the pipe with no issues. Dunno what prices look like now, but Del-ton was selling for a few hundred less than all the big name companies back when I bought mine.

Doc, thanks for the link to AR15.com


Great info, however it's re-affirming my distrust of AR's! :laugh_sma


Yep, it'll be a Colt or similar quality manufacturer or nothing after reading that!


Thank God for the AK!!!!

LMT are good ones. I don't think Bushmaster stakes any of their carrier keys anymore. They just loctite them and they come loose. Bushmaster overtoques their barrel nuts. The Bushmaster lowers won't take all magazines because the magwells are tight. I don't like Bushmaster's bolts or plastic but their barrels are good if you get one not attached to an upper.

If your going with an M4 here's the
M4 Comparison Chart and Explanation of Desirable Features

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

I'd like to hear more about that.

Two of the most recent sources are thus: (understand I am taking the word of these people)

First, and the most up front and personal is a trainer at the fitness center where the wife works. The young man just came out of active duty with 1/4. (USMC) Three tours "over there". His call on the Colt was that they had to be a lot more careful with lubes in the dusty sand. They flat out will not run if left "dry" and enough lube to ensure reliable cycling (especially when hot from either fire or ambient temp) is risky due to the damn sand. (His words next) "The lower groups on the Colts broke a lot. ie-HTS and selectors." He went on to say that thankfully, they rarely had shortages of these parts. Many other things they were and remain short of over there (like parts for the M240G). (As a side note, he also praised the heavy ass M240G because it would run dry, wet, wore out, no matter. He loved it)

He said that the guys lucky enough to have an FN M16 could get away with a lot of variance in lube, even to the point of running them dry. Too much oil in them, in the sand, would of course, stop them like the Colts. But just not as fast. The FN A2's are lighter as well, so that (in his words) "means more ammo load is more comfortable, always a good to go thing in injun country".

My youngest son just graduated from USMC basic. Home on the 10 day leave as of this writing, as a matter of fact. His rifle throughout basic was an FN make A2. His DI's the rifle instructors and the primary marksmanship instructors all made a point to tell him (and the few others so lucky) that they best count themselves fortunate to have drawn an FN. To the point that they ragged on them that they better have higher scores as an "FN will do the job when you are too fukkin 'heinous' (seems "heinous" is a new favorite term for DI's to use on boots) to do it themselves.

Not so brief, sorry, but that is the scoop I am getting.

I admit to being biased. I love the FNFAL, the FN turnbolt I have. About the only thing I really hate about FN is that abominable SCAR and that POS pistol. LOL


2B

I have two target ar's an Armalite 10T in .308 and an RRA PP. I have had no
problems with either and the 308 holds just over 1/2 moa and the 223 holds
just over .25 moa. They are not go to's for military scenarios. I like the ak folder
and a drum shotgun for those type of contemplations. I am a long range shooter
and would prefer to use the stw than the 308 at 600+. As I get older I may not
like the wallop of a magnum but for now it's fine. Down range energy is next in line in importance after accuracy for me.
I think for anyone looking at a blaster/military gun I would want a mil spec
bolt and carrier. Everything else is going to hold up about the same on the
high quality brands. For my round count and use it isn't a factor.
As far as the amount of problems you see on the net with ar's. First take into
account the amount of novice owners, builders and reloaders out there. Second
it doesn't take but a few minutes for an armorer to diagnose and repair an ar.
It's all been done a million times.

I have heard some complain about the Colts, but not a lot. I have heard some comment on AK's breaking over in Iraq, something I didn't think I would hear of.


Over here tho' we will (I hope) never have to use our AR's or AK's in a battle. So I have no idea unless you put one to the test if it will break or not.

COLT :D

Im surprised no one has said anything about LaRue

Ya know, the design lends itself to mods so easily, it is really tough to well and truly fug up in the selection of an entry level unit. As an example, of recent, a guy bought a Rock River complete lower in A2 configuration. He then bought an upper that matched the lower. He decided he would rather have a real nice upper with a free float HG. He bought the upper, bought the HG tube, handed it to me and sez, let's go shuffle this shit. 45 minutes later he had a really uber cool "varmint rifle"

Now he is thinkiing on changing the gas block from the standard front sight GB to a flat picatinny. Another 45 minutes and a few beers and this will be different.

Oh yeah, he dropped a Jard trigger in it while on the phone with me.

Erector set cum Lego and fear not.

Enjoy.

I'm quite pleased with my Colt's, very nice rifles.. However I understand there have been some complaints over the years..

Then again I am also very happy with the R/R Rifles, the DSA Lowers, and the ANVIL Arms rifle as well..

Personally I don't like Bushy, or OLLY but lots of others do..

Seems to me finding a crappy one is more trouble then finding a good one..

Own a Bushmaster,Rock River,Olympic Arms. All are still working great with no issues.

Seems to me finding a crappy one is more trouble then finding a good one..


THAT is among the most accurate statements about AR's I have read.

companies who manufacture their own ar's,all tier 1 milspec!
sabre defense
daniel defense
lmt
all forged,cmv 4150 barrels, m4 chambers top of the food chain. saw a new colt 6940 that looked like someone took a belt grinder to the lower.

Del-Ton.

Yet from my experience, as long as you have a good BCG, DPMS seems to be a solid platform.That definitely seems to be the biggest issue: the BCG

Other than that, you can probably get by with whatever you want, most times.


So much of it comes down to properly maintaining the weapon and keeping it lubed.

That too.
I think that is where a lot of people have difficulties.

Just a short list. There are more of them that make AR's. Plus it all depends on how much you want to spend!

http://www.ar-15.us/AR15_Manufacturers.php
http://ar15buyersguide.com/AR15-Manufacturers/


Alexander Arms
Ameetec Arms
Barrett Firearms
CMMG Inc.
Compass Lake Engineering
Continental Machine Tool Co.
Dalphon
Double Star
DS Arms
Eagle Arms
Essential Arms
Global Tactical Supply
Gunsmoke Enterprises
Heckler & Koch
High Standard
L.A.R. Manufacturing
Lauer Custom Weaponry
Leitner-Wise
Lewis Machine Tool Co.
LRB Arms
Mega Machine
MGI Military
National Ordnance Company
Noveske Rifle Works
Patriot Ordnance Factory
Rock Island Armory
Sabre Defence Industries
Smith & Wesson
SNS Industries
Sun Devil Mfg.
Superior Arms
Teppo Jutsu
Tromix
Vida Rica

I first put togeather a Stag Lower with a CMMG lower kit and a M4 Model 1 Sales upper. When Stag introduced their left hand upper I bought one of those and matched it with the Stag Lower. I gave my son the upper and he put togeather a Superior Arms Lower with a CMMG kit. Both shoot great except the occasional hiccup with steel case ammo (flawless with Brass case). I do all my shooting with open sights <= 100 yards and can easily head shot at that range with either rifle. For the long shots I'll stick with my bolt guns. Truth be told I only have the AK's and AR for light carry close quarters if it ever comes to that. Otherwise if I wish to send someone a message I'll talk 300 Win Mag :D