Heavy Ammo

I've heard that using ammo heavier than 150GR can cause structural failure in a PSL. Where exactly does the failure occur? <Phil S.>

Rear trunion rivets

I've heard that using ammo heavier than 150GR can cause structural failure in a PSL. Where exactly does the failure occur? <Phil S.>

A while back some one here mentioned a crack bolt carrier.

and rectal seepage. use lightball only

I've heard that using ammo heavier than 150GR can cause structural failure in a PSL. Where exactly does the failure occur? <Phil S.>
I've heard alot of folks saying this is so...........Anyone have a picture? Did it happen to your gun? So far all I see on the net is she said...he said and not one single photo of damage done by heavy ball. Not saying it's not so. But not one picture?.............Mike

i shot 30 rounds of the yugo heavy ball (182 grains i think?), anyway, its the stuff that has no steel in it.

i was able to put 6 rounds into 1.5" at 100 meters with the PSL.


i just got some light ball in, along with prvi partizan 150 grn ammo. last night i pulled 25 bullets and did some reloading. i havn't shot them yet.

i'm using speer .303 150 grn bullets.

1- left PPU powder in case and just planted the speer bullet on top.

2- IMR4895, 46.0 grains.

3- IMR4895, 47.5 grains.

4- IMR4064, 47.0 grains

5- IMR4064, 49.0 grains.

i believe i seated them at 2.845 (i think, i may be worng on this) the speer bullets are kinda short.

we'll see how they do

i shot 30 rounds of the yugo heavy ball (182 grains i think?), anyway, its the stuff that has no steel in it.

i was able to put 6 rounds into 1.5" at 100 meters with the PSL.


i just got some light ball in, along with prvi partizan 150 grn ammo. last night i pulled 25 bullets and did some reloading. i havn't shot them yet.

i'm using speer .303 150 grn bullets.

1- left PPU powder in case and just planted the speer bullet on top.

2- IMR4895, 46.0 grains.

3- IMR4895, 47.5 grains.

4- IMR4064, 47.0 grains

5- IMR4064, 49.0 grains.

i believe i seated them at 2.845 (i think, i may be worng on this) the speer bullets are kinda short.

we'll see how they do


I handload 150gr Remington SPCL .308 bullets on top of 47 gr IMR4064. I was rewarded with 1 1/2" groups of 5 at 100m. The Privi Partizan has not done under 3". I'm shooting tomorrow so we shall see if I can get the Privi to do better

I have fired a number of the Win. 180 gr. loads in my PSL.It was the only ammo
I could find for a while after I bought the rifle.I shoots pretty good,but to err on
the side of caution,after I fire the rounds I have left,I won't do it anymore.

I've heard alot of folks saying this is so...........Anyone have a picture? Did it happen to your gun? So far all I see on the net is she said...he said and not one single photo of damage done by heavy ball. Not saying it's not so. But not one picture?.............Mike

We truly need a volunteer to do some testing and post a report with pictures.

I would try it, but I know my rifle is going to have problems because the rear trunnion support reinforcing plates are not spot welded to the receiver, they are only riveted.

Like I said; I do not say it isn't so. I just question reports that dozens of guns went through a gunsmith "expert" and he posted a long professional article and not one picture of a damaged rifle. I'm getting lots of reports of damage done on my Gunboards posting but again they are without any evidence other than the typed reports. One reported that PSL's have a short lifespan even with light ball and fall apart? Is that fact also? Perhaps the reports of short life are the same as I got when I bought my SAR-1. I was told it was junk and will shoot loose. Well,6 years and many thousands of rounds later plus a couple cases of bump firing, my SAR-1 looks & shoots like new. I hope my PSL is the same...............Mike

I heard all that heavy ball negativity too but if you look on dragonov.net they don't recommend heavy ball .

I too have heard the whole heavy ball story.

Yet not one pic or a direct link to anyone experiencing a failure from it.

Makes a guy wonder.

I agree,but I still don't want to take a chance.Maybe I drank too much " kool aid " on this subject.

Would be nice to shoot the heavier stuff but as plentiful as light ball is right now it's not really an issue to me. Tell you guys what. You supply the HB ammo and I'll run a shit ton of it through one of my PSLs and we'll see what happens. :small_gri

LPS is it. My understanding is that anything other than LPS results in abnormal wear on the bolt, carrier and receiver not to mention exceeding the pressure limits on the barrel.

Of the many arguments I've had with folks that claim the PSL/Drag platform is a '400' meter rifle, most of them can't vouch for the ammo that was fed to the weapon and I'm thoroughly convinced that their opinions are based on feeding the platform a ~170 - ~200 grain bullets *or* rapid firing the weapon.

I've heard that using ammo heavier than 150GR can cause structural failure in a PSL. Where exactly does the failure occur? <Phil S.>

My thanks to all you folks for your input on my post! <Phil S.>

I earnestly pray that the Omnipotent Being who has not deserted the cause of America in the hour of its extremest hazard, will never yield so fair a heritage of freedom a prey to Anarchy or Despotism.
- GEORGE WASHINGTON.

All the failures "claimed" on Gunboards are not the same. They are all different problems and not all with HB but light ball also. Me thinks the gun is designed for a diet of 150gr+-, but I do not believe heavy ball will destroy a properly built PSL. Again that's just my opinion! We shall see as I'm going to shoot my PSL alot and keep track of the rounds used and amount fired. I'm off to the range again today. I'll not add a buffer and it will be kept stock except for the stain on the forend/handguard wood. Will keep everyone informed and should it fail I will photo and report what/where/when and how and the list of ammo used...

Would also be interested in your take on accuracy with the 170g + ammo, Mike, though I'm fairly certain of the outcome.

If, indeed, this whole LPS only mantra is a load of crap, it will be good to know so I'm not perpetuating it.

--James

I would think a recoil buffer and the ~175 grain FMJ stuff from Silver Bear would be just fine as long as it's not loaded heavy. I haven't used a chrono on the heavy ball stuff but I imagine current commercial ammo might be a little hotter than 30+ year old surplus.

I run sellier & bellot 174 grain sierra HBTM and a blackjack buffer and have no problem. I also run 168 & 175 grain M118/M118LR thru my Saiga 308 with a blackjack buffer with no problem.

Also not sure if they make one for a psl but wolf springs make extra power AK recoil springs.

Loading 308 bullets should decrease chamber pressure if your doing hand loads.

I run sellier & bellot 174 grain sierra HBTM and a blackjack buffer and have no problem. I also run 168 & 175 grain M118/M118LR thru my Saiga 308 with a blackjack buffer with no problem.

Also not sure if they make one for a psl but wolf springs make extra power AK recoil springs.

Loading 308 bullets should decrease chamber pressure if your doing hand loads.
Have you run a bore slug through your PSL, out of curiosity? Don't mean to side track but I'm picking up a press and scale soon specifically for hand loads for my PSL and Remmy 700 30-06. Everything I've read to this point indicates that the slug will measure out at .311...

yeah....no pictures....

almost like the star, 3, 10, '52 ammo that blew up a cz-52...and the whole stink cloud that has followed this ammo.

I still shoot light ball though.

Have you run a bore slug through your PSL, out of curiosity? Don't mean to side track but I'm picking up a press and scale soon specifically for hand loads for my PSL and Remmy 700 30-06. Everything I've read to this point indicates that the slug will measure out at .311...

My .308 handloads shoot to same POI as the 150gr Privi Partizan. Worst 100m group with handloads was 1 1/2". My Load: Lapua or S&B cases, winchester large rifle primer standard, Remington 150gr SPCL bullet seated out way beyond the cannelure(same OAL as my Polish light ball 2.90+-inch, 47gr IMR-4064, I use Lee factory crimp die made for 54R...Loading is safe in all the Mosins I shoot. My M39's shoot it great but I've yet to get a 91/30(2 dozen tried at least) to stabilize the .308 bullets. I didn't slug the bore but alot of folks shoot .308 diameter bullets in their PSL's.
SURPRISE! I just went out to the loading bench and grabbed the caliphers. The Privi Partizan 7.62X54R ammo has .308-.309 bullets! I checked a couple boxs. I also checked my surplus Polish lightball and no bullets were under .310 and most were .311. Since I can get great groups from the PP I do believe .308 is the way I'll go...............Mike

Now I know I've found a home :)

Thanks for the info, Mike.

I'm still unsure why it would be preferable to shoot .308 through an .311 bore, it seems like the bullet wouldn't have solid contact with the lands/grooves during it's travel down the barrel. Same for 5.56 shooting .223. How does that work? You would think that the bullet would "bounce" along the barrel.

Sorry for the newbie questions...

My .308 handloads shoot to same POI as the 150gr Privi Partizan. Worst 100m group with handloads was 1 1/2". My Load: Lapua or S&B cases, winchester large rifle primer standard, Remington 150gr SPCL bullet seated out way beyond the cannelure(same OAL as my Polish light ball 2.90+-inch, 47gr IMR-4064, I use Lee factory crimp die made for 54R...Loading is safe in all the Mosins I shoot. My M39's shoot it great but I've yet to get a 91/30(2 dozen tried at least) to stabilize the .308 bullets. I didn't slug the bore but alot of folks shoot .308 diameter bullets in their PSL's.
SURPRISE! I just went out to the loading bench and grabbed the caliphers. The Privi Partizan 7.62X54R ammo has .308-.309 bullets! I checked a couple boxs. I also checked my surplus Polish lightball and no bullets were under .310 and most were .311. Since I can get great groups from the PP I do believe .308 is the way I'll go...............Mike

interesting...

is your privi partizan ammo the stuff that aim is selling right now? i got some of that, pulled the bullets, mic'd them and they came out at .311

?????

anyway, i havn't shot them or the reloads yet, but i will tomorrow.

I got my Privi from AIM. The largest diameter I can get is .309 from a couple bullets, most are .308. Most of my Polish light ball is at .311. I didn't pull the bullets. I measured right at the top of the case neck(mouth). My reloads with .308 Remington bullets mic .308-.309 at the same place. Polish mic. .311-.310 same spot(top of case mouth). There's a whole lot of bullet outside the case on these 54R cartridges. If my caliphers were off that much then my Polish light ball would be WAY over spec. @ .314? I do know that I can get excellent accuracy(1 1/2"), in my PSL with .308 bullets so I intend to load that diameter. I have experimented over the last 7-8 years with .308 bullets in Mosins and the only one other than my M39's that would do anything with .308 was a M91 from the turn of the century. None of my 91/30's, M44's, M38's or 91/59's would shoot .308. My M39's SAKO, "B" barrel and VKT all do around an inch at 100m with the Remington SPCL in .308.
I can get either diameter in bulk for within $10 but if .308 works then I will shoot that until I do sufficient wear to require moving up in diameter.
To huhufan.......I like that handle......5.56 and .223 are the same diameter .224 but not the same round. 5.56 is designed(loaded) to be shot in a chamber with more freebore. A .223 round is perfectly fine in a 5.56 chamber but 5.56 round could be a problem in a .223 chamber(tight fit and chamber pressure). Easiest way I could explain. .223 is SAAMI spec........5.56 is Military spec. I believe on my PSL that the bore is tight and a new barrel. I fired 80 rounds of my handloads before I shot anything else in it. They shot excellent and if I had a good rest I believe again that I could get MOA or better. I tried .308 reloads and Privi Partizan, both shot excellent and I'm going to do ALOT more shooting and reloading. A few hundred rounds do not make a good case for .308. If I continue through 500-1,000 rounds and I continue to get good results, that will be the proof.....and only then..........Shoot safe and shoot alot guys..............Mike

so i took the PSL out to the range today to try the Priv partizan ammo, and the reloads i did.

i'm confused now.


see, when i first fired the rifle, i was using Yugo 182 grn heavy ball.

it shot 1.5" groups at 100 meters.

so today i go out, and privi partisan ball ammo is shooting 3-3.5" at 100 meters.

the lower powered reloads i shot (46 grns of IMR4895 and 47 grns of IMR 4064) strung fairly badly but were in 3.5" too.

i was bent knowing that the heavy ball is the accurate stuff.


now, i let it go a minute or 2 between all these shots and let it sit for 10 minutes between each different group. (5 rounds in each group)


now for the crazy part:

i wasn't too happy with how the reloads and PPU ammo were shooting, so i decided to knock out the rest of the loads i did (hotter loads: 47.5 IMR 4895 and 49 IMR 4064)

now, i fired these one right after the other (no waiting around for the barrel to cool) and they were quite a bit better.

the 47.5 grns of IMR 4895 went inside 1.75" with three that were .75" apart.

the 49 grns of IMR 4064 went inside 1.25" with 3 rounds touching at .5" inches


goofy eh? i can't figure it out. either it likes the hotter loads, or maybe its more accurate with a warmer barrel...

anyway, going to work up some more of the hotter loads to see if i can replicate the accuracy.

From what I've gathered in my reading, the PSL likes velocity a lot.

There is a load I've been working with that uses up to 51gr of IMR 4895 and a 150gr .311 Sierra ProHunter bullet in Winchester brass, it chronos right at 3000fps (50gr IMR 4895) and, in my rifle, prints 1.2" groups @ 100m.

The data I got to start working up this load came from here: http://www.realguns.com/loads/762x54r.htm

I started at 47gr of powder and worked up from there. I've been using new Winchester brass for these because I had some case necks split using reloaded PRVI brass @ 50gr.

so i took the PSL out to the range today to try the Priv partizan ammo, and the reloads i did.

i'm confused now.


see, when i first fired the rifle, i was using Yugo 182 grn heavy ball.

it shot 1.5" groups at 100 meters.

so today i go out, and privi partisan ball ammo is shooting 3-3.5" at 100 meters.

the lower powered reloads i shot (46 grns of IMR4895 and 47 grns of IMR 4064) strung fairly badly but were in 3.5" too.

i was bent knowing that the heavy ball is the accurate stuff.


now, i let it go a minute or 2 between all these shots and let it sit for 10 minutes between each different group. (5 rounds in each group)


now for the crazy part:

i wasn't too happy with how the reloads and PPU ammo were shooting, so i decided to knock out the rest of the loads i did (hotter loads: 47.5 IMR 4895 and 49 IMR 4064)

now, i fired these one right after the other (no waiting around for the barrel to cool) and they were quite a bit better.

the 47.5 grns of IMR 4895 went inside 1.75" with three that were .75" apart.

the 49 grns of IMR 4064 went inside 1.25" with 3 rounds touching at .5" inches


goofy eh? i can't figure it out. either it likes the hotter loads, or maybe its more accurate with a warmer barrel...

anyway, going to work up some more of the hotter loads to see if i can replicate the accuracy.
What works for you! Those are great groups from any rack grade military rifle. My PSL shoots the 47 grains pretty good but now maybe I'll heat them up a bit to see if my gun can do better. Thanks for the info...........Mike

Just a new note to those wishing to reload. I just purchased 1000 Privi Partizan FMJBT reloading bullets. They are listed as .309(NOT)* diameter on the Graf & Sons reloading sight. I knew my measurements were not off by much. If you have a heavy used barrel I would assume Privi Partizan ammo/bullets would be marginal in their accuracy. My bore is brand new & pristine and functions GREAT with the Privi.............Mike *Well all is up in the air now. The box arrived from Graf & Sons and the invoice says (.309 dia.) however the bags are marked (.311 dia). I mic'ed a bunch them and they seem to be especially consistant in size and that being .311. Well, I'm shooting .311 as that's what I have. I'll start with my 47gr loading of IMR 4064 that does so well in my M39's with .308 bullets.

Mike, you need to slug your bore and measure the diameter across the face of the lands. The PSL is supposed to be .311", even on a new bore.

The .309" bullets won't stay accurate once your bore starts to wear, even a little bit, and it will wear even faster shooting under-sized bullets through it.

If you don't believe me, check the official specs for the rifle. The bore specification is .311".

The possibility could exist that you have a .308" barrel for a 7.62x51 Nato mis-chambered for 7.62x54R, but that would be an extremely unlikely scenario. There are PSL-54C rifles chambered in 7.62x51 Nato, but they are very rare in this country.

I spent a lot of $$ having the PSL built using a cherry all matching kit.. While I suspect a catastrophic failure may not result from H/B ammo usage I don't see any reason at all to beat up the gun.. Is a steady diet of H/B causing probs confirmed or internet lore? I have no idea but in this rifle I will excersise discretion if for no other reason then it makes me feel better..

Assuming these guns like many others were designed around a specific ammo type then why dick W/It? If the barrel twist is best suited for 150 gr (or so) bullets then why shoot 180's?

Mike, you need to slug your bore and measure the diameter across the face of the lands. The PSL is supposed to be .311", even on a new bore.

The .309" bullets won't stay accurate once your bore starts to wear, even a little bit, and it will wear even faster shooting under-sized bullets through it.

If you don't believe me, check the official specs for the rifle. The bore specification is .311".

The possibility could exist that you have a .308" barrel for a 7.62x51 Nato mis-chambered for 7.62x54R, but that would be an extremely unlikely scenario. There are PSL-54C rifles chambered in 7.62x51 Nato, but they are very rare in this country.
OK, I'll slug the bore and report back.
Well we shall see, I doubt I get to it today but I will slug my PSL, a 1939 Tula 91/30 and my favorite M39 and report back! Looks like a rainy day operation to me.

I spent a lot of $$ having the PSL built using a cherry all matching kit.. While I suspect a catastrophic failure may not result from H/B ammo usage I don't see any reason at all to beat up the gun.. Is a steady diet of H/B causing probs confirmed or internet lore? I have no idea but in this rifle I will excersise discretion if for no other reason then it makes me feel better..

Assuming these guns like many others were designed around a specific ammo type then why dick W/It? If the barrel twist is best suited for 150 gr (or so) bullets then why shoot 180's?

Absolutely no reason to beat a gun up. However the question ask is valid. There is ALOT of postings, the majority of those hear-say, about damage done to PSL's. I and others ask for proof and to date there has been none. Whenever someone is pressed to explain the damage and ammo used they dissapear. There isn't even ONE picture on the internet of a damaged PSL from HB? I read a self proclaimed Expert report that he has had dozens of failed PSL's through his shop, damaged from HB. Nice well written article and no photos or real depth into the part/parts that fail.
Then we have the other side that claims they shoot HB for years and years without any problem.
I can't say who is right or wrong. I just ask for proof and received none
I say shoot and have fun, enjoy the PSL. Use what ammo you feel secure with. To me the PSL is an excellent example of a currently fielded small arm...........Mike

i looked through my manual for the PSL and couldn't find anywhere it says to not shoot HB...

why do i want to shoot HB through mine? because the yugo 182 HB shot the best of everything i've tried... 6 rounds under 1.5MOA.

another thing, bullet weight doesn't always equate to increased pressure. i'm shooting max loads with the reloads i'm shooting now so in theory, could this be like shooting HB?

loads are 48.0 grns IMR 4895 150 grn .311 bullet

Absolutely no reason to beat a gun up. However the question ask is valid. There is ALOT of postings, the majority of those hear-say, about damage done to PSL's. I and others ask for proof and to date there has been none. Whenever someone is pressed to explain the damage and ammo used they dissapear. There isn't even ONE picture on the internet of a damaged PSL from HB? I read a self proclaimed Expert report that he has had dozens of failed PSL's through his shop, damaged from HB. Nice well written article and no photos or real depth into the part/parts that fail.
Then we have the other side that claims they shoot HB for years and years without any problem.
I can't say who is right or wrong. I just ask for proof and received none
I say shoot and have fun, enjoy the PSL. Use what ammo you feel secure with. To me the PSL is an excellent example of a currently fielded small arm...........Mike


I agree the question was a valid one, I was just sharring my thoughts..
As far as the rifle being an excellent firearm, No argument here I like my PSL just fine..

I read the posts about the evils of using heavy ammo. I shot some light ball on Saturday and some heavy. The heavy ball wasn't very accurate, but that has to do with the twist rate. Nothing broke and will not.

I think you could shoot 300 grain through it and it wouldn't break. Somebody show photos of a PSL broken by heavy ball ammo.