So should I pick up a Saiga or two>??

Man, I want more Saigas... I just love them. I heard Izmash is going tits up and I think the low(er) price might go back up for a year again or whatever.. I just want more AK's... and the Saigas are just hard to beat. hmm.. which caliber..


whats the best deal now? Classic?

dont count on Izmash going tits-up, they do Russian military weapons so i don't see it happening. my 2 converted Saiga's are in .223 mainly because its easier for 12 year old son to use them and in a SHTF scenario .223 would be easier to find.
I already have 2 Norinco AKs from the early 90s in 7.62x39 so where good there.

I love the Saigas too, would pick up another one myself if I could, but I can`t . Going back to school.

I dont have the saiga 20 or the 5.45.....

I guess I'll wait. I just see the prices coming down and they look so tempting... :)

I have 2 Saiga's in 7.62x39.I also have a Saiga 20 gauge.I want a Saiga 12 gauge.I just recently sold my Saiga 7.62x51,been wishing I had kept it but bills needed to be paid.The wife said I could get another after the first of the year but am thinking about dumping my 308/7.62x51 ammo and using the funds to buy the Saiga 12 gauge and another PSL.td

I have 2 Saiga's in 7.62x39.I also have a Saiga 20 gauge.I want a Saiga 12 gauge.I just recently sold my Saiga 7.62x51,been wishing I had kept it but bills needed to be paid.The wife said I could get another after the first of the year but am thinking about dumping my 308/7.62x51 ammo and using the funds to buy the Saiga 12 gauge and another PSL.td

I know what you mean. I've never sold a gun I didn't regret.

in a SHTF scenario .223 would be easier to find.
I already have 2 Norinco AKs from the early 90s in 7.62x39 so where good there.


Ok, I have to ask, because I see this all the time.

What has lead you to believe this? If TSHTF, ammo in any caliber, but especially the ones everyone has, is not going to be easier to find. You couldn't find any ammunition anywhere near New Orleans in the days leading up to Katrina. The Obama Election Scare ring any bells? You know what calibers I was finding still stocked? .17HMR, 32 S&W long, 44 rem mag, 7mm mag. Oddball calibers like that.

I still haven't seen .223, 9mm, or 45ACP at any of the 5 Wally Worlds I swing by to get ammunition at.

During the scare, when you could find common calibers, the price was so extreme as to be insane (remember .380, anyone?).

So if you're using that argument in justifying a caliber for a SHTF rifle, you're fooling yourself. Stockpile your chosen calibers and disperse them as you can where you can in order to prevent one bad calamity from wiping out your stocks entirely.

Stock and Disperse!

Right now, 5.45 is the cheapest out there. If you decide to buy a rifle in that caliber, I suggest you buy as much of it as you can now.

If I go for another caliber besides .308 and x39 for my AKs, it will be .223 for one reason: Brass cased ammunition. For all intents and purposes, 5.45 reloadable ammunition does not exist in the United States. Depending on the scenario for TSHTF you ascribe to, this may or may not be a big deal. Seeing as how I must professionally remain skeptical, I assume that some day I'll have to cast and load my own ammunition. Because of that I only buy calibers that I can reload for.

I guess I'll wait. I just see the prices coming down and they look so tempting... :)
IIRC the price I saw at the last show was around $379. Personally I don`t think the price will go below $350, maybe a few bucks but I wouldn`t count on it. Considering the total cost after converting yourself it`s the best bang for the buck, IMO. If you can find one through a private sale that in itself is worth a bit more.

.223 or 5.56 as it is known is common military round, in a serious SHTF scenario would you not take ammo from dead police, military, guard personnel or anyone else that had a AR-15? other than 30.06, .308, and 30-30 its probably most common rifle round in the U.S.
remember something else ammo could also be used as barter currency in bad times, its better to go with common calibers. 5.45 is a great round but does anyone in the U.S. load it, not to my knowledge. what good is a rifle you cant find ammo for because its a odd caliber!!!

.223 or 5.56 as it is known is common military round, in a serious SHTF scenario would you not take ammo from dead police, military, guard personnel or anyone else that had a AR-15? other than 30.06, .308, and 30-30 its probably most common rifle round in the U.S.

Which means every one and their brother will be looking for it, which means prices will be insane, which sounds a lot like it the recent Obama scare, now doesn't it? While you may not have thought Katrina was a "real SHTF" scenario, for the people who were there, it was. My great uncle was pissed that he only had 1,000rds of Greek surplus 30-06 en bloc for his Garand and couldn't find any to buy sell or trade 3 days before the hurricane hit.


remember something else ammo could also be used as barter currency in bad times, its better to go with common calibers. 5.45 is a great round but does anyone in the U.S. load it, not to my knowledge. what good is a rifle you cant find ammo for because its a odd caliber!!!

I actually said I'd go .223, but only because I could reload for it with no issues. If there was domestically available 5.45, I'd take that for the cheap training ammo and the superior ballistics of 5.45 over the 5.56.

Same conclusion, just slightly more logical.

dont count on Izmash going tits-up, they do Russian military weapons so i don't see it happening. my 2 converted Saiga's are in .223 mainly because its easier for 12 year old son to use them and in a SHTF scenario .223 would be easier to find.
I already have 2 Norinco AKs from the early 90s in 7.62x39 so where good there.
The tits up you have to consider is the dollar, If demand for goods ever goes back up, it will be worth a fraction of what it is today, so by default Saigas will be much more expensive than they are today probably, of course Russia could devalue its currency. Buy now, I say its worth the gamble with the current situation thats unlikely to change before the dollar goes "Tits UP"

.223 or 5.56 as it is known is common military round, in a serious SHTF scenario would you not take ammo from dead police, military, guard personnel or anyone else that had a AR-15? other than 30.06, .308, and 30-30 its probably most common rifle round in the U.S.
remember something else ammo could also be used as barter currency in bad times, its better to go with common calibers. 5.45 is a great round but does anyone in the U.S. load it, not to my knowledge. what good is a rifle you cant find ammo for because its a odd caliber!!!as cheap as 545 is, your argument doesnt hold up due to the ease of buying a lifetime supply. However if your on the move, cross country sourcing, its a good point.

The tits up you have to consider is the dollar, If demand for goods ever goes back up, it will be worth a fraction of what it is today, so by default Saigas will be much more expensive than they are today probably, of course Russia could devalue its currency. Buy now, I say its worth the gamble with the current situation thats unlikely to change before the dollar goes "Tits UP"
thats a good point.. .HMmm

Izhmash is not going bankrupt, folks. That was simply a rumor started by people who's reading comprehension skills are lacking. There was an article suggesting some OTHER company might try to force Izhmash into bankruptcy because of a very small $250K debt. But this is "da Internets", and it doesn't take long for BS like this to spread.

And speaking of BS, I have to hand it to Lysander for questioning the conventional wisdom on SHTF ammo. I've always thought that in a true SHTF situation, the only ammo you'll have is whatever you had the good sense to buy prior to that SHTF situation. Anyone thinking they'll get a common caliber now because it'll be "easier to find" in a SHTF situation, must have been sleeping the last nine months.

As we just witnessed earlier this year, if you needed popular-caliber ammo, you were screwed. It was the people who shoot weird calibers, who were still able to find ammo...5.45 being a great example.

Regardless of all this, everyone should prepare as if ALL ammo was going to be outlawed tomorrow. By that, I'm not suggesting that ammo will be outlawed. I'm just making the point that the future is always uncertain, and gun owners should ALWAYS have a healthy stash of ammo sitting around "just in case".

And speaking of BS, I have to hand it to Lysander for questioning the conventional wisdom on SHTF ammo. I've always thought that in a true SHTF situation, the only ammo you'll have is whatever you had the good sense to buy prior to that SHTF situation. Anyone thinking they'll get a common caliber now because it'll be "easier to find" in a SHTF situation, must have been sleeping the last nine months.


Thanks, and you're right. The subsequent events leading up to and following the election of the Community Activist have pretty much given light to the lie that is the conventional wisdom of ammo. This goes beyond the anecdotal story of ammo found at Wal Mart, it held true everywhere.

People will believe what they want, and should anything ever go wrong, it will add just a touch more chlorine to the gene pool. Like many things, the truth about this one is sitting there staring you in the face (kind of like Geico stack of money).

Yes stocking up is a good thing, i keep a set number of rounds on hand at all times for .223, 308, 7.62x39 and have done this for 18 years. I'm taking my 12 year old boy to a shoot tomorrow and will probably put 600-800 rds through a FAL and a Saiga .223 conversion. while its just for fun there is some serious weapons training for him in this. he is already better than me with the Saiga .223 but needs more time with the FAL in .308. stocking up years ago still lets me go through this amount of ammo cheaply and gives him more rifle time.

I love these arguments because I have them with myself all the time. 5.45x39 is a perfect caliber because you can stock the hell up on it and the weapons systems are relatively cheap. Nice part, if ammo supplies dry up- your cache is worth a ton for all others who own the same rifle. If you are "on the move" then you simply use your 5.45x39 rifle to aquire a domestic caliber weapon. It isn't rocket science. You can go all .223 but as others pointed out, it's expensive and quickly becomes unavailable as soon as the SHTF. Having weapons in various calibers is your best bet given you may find ammo for each. I have .30-06, .223, and 5.45x39 in my current rifle calibers. I have gone away from .308, 7.62x54, .300 RUM, and 7.62x39.

Own at least TWO rifles in your calibers, no good to only have one. However don't own more than TWO in the same non-domestic odd caliber because then you are just wasting resources. Remember the odd caliber weapons serve only for acquiring domestic caliber weapons or for basic home defense. The nice thing about AK's is that you know that they will run and the accessories/components for the most part are interchangeable. Even some of the small parts like extractors, springs, pins, bayonets, muzzle breaks, etc.

You have to remember that in a true SHTF scenario- people with AK's will generally be viewed as the "enemy" by LEO, Military or the General Public. In a true SHTF scenario, we won't have the luxury of armorers to upgrade or fix our weapon systems, or worse, the weapons themselves have been banned for decades- hence you are stuck with what you had at that time. Given this, AK's are great for home defense, long term use, but owning at least two AR's or whatever is current issue with the military is paramount if only for easy upgrading of components or ammunition and being viewed as being "friendly".


Just my .02,

7.62