HK Style Charging System for AK

This is really neat. its on a few forums now, i couldn't help but to show you guys. i think it definitely has potential, i'v talked to the individule personally and he's a heck of a guy. there is a sleeve made from 4140 steel that goes over the piston, this also acta as an insulator against heat. the handle is turned up away from the thumb and fingers. it has a bolt locking system the handle goes completely upright in the vertical position. its much like the HK. the old charging handle can be removed. the tube is a lot thicker then the original and allows for air circulation.
Check it out:

www.dublinaksystems.com

Interesting...

Has anyone considered simply placing a chging handle on left side like a FAL...? Slot in dust cover, voila! I'm sure they have...

The new bolt seems like it MITE interfere w/ handling the weapon w/ left(Thumb) hand in the area.... Risk of being hit by handle and burns from gases expelling from that opening on left??? I guess that's the reason for the insulator??? Won't be very insulating for long, 100 + rds, will be on fire w/ rest of weapon fwd of the trunion..... But then I saw the chging handle still on right side too....

panzertruppe

colorado shooting sports makes the Lightning Bolt

http://www.coloradoshootingsports.com/AKIntro.html

I'm not really a fan of the HK style charging handle, locking it to the back, changing the mag, and then slapping it forward doesn't seem any faster to me than the AK's original configuration.

did you see the video? you dont have to lock it back. you can just pull it back and let it go, just like the old way except this is in a more convient location.

I`m a lefty so the AK is PEERRRFFEECCTT for me :)

I would like it better if it folded down like the hk's.

I love these solutions searching for a problem. Looks like a great way to burn yourself and/or get a broken thumb. Not much of a "torture test" when the bolt is closed. Why don't they throw sand on it while he's shooting the rifle?

Oh, right, because then it would clog and lock up. Sorry, but the AK is the most reliable small arms weapons system out there because it hasn't been "fixed" until it was broken.

WOW thats dangerous and stupid!!! I doubt ANYONE from this board would do that.

I love these solutions searching for a problem. Looks like a great way to burn yourself and/or get a broken thumb. Not much of a "torture test" when the bolt is closed. Why don't they throw sand on it while he's shooting the rifle?

Oh, right, because then it would clog and lock up. Sorry, but the AK is the most reliable small arms weapons system out there because it hasn't been "fixed" until it was broken.


broken thumb, burns? come on. i'v seen people hold back the bolt assembly with their hands and fire it. how on earth would you get burned? it would run cooler then a regular tube because of the circulation.

There was a seller on the files who made these types and sold them here.

I kinda wanted one.

did you see the video? you dont have to lock it back. you can just pull it back and let it go, just like the old way except this is in a more convient location.

I know that, but you'd still have to reach further forward to grab the charging handle. It's probably not any faster than reaching around the top or bottom of the gun to work the original charging handle.

It's just my opinion. It's cool, it's different, but it's not for me.

broken thumb, burns? come on. i'v seen people hold back the bolt assembly with their hands and fire it. how on earth would you get burned? it would run cooler then a regular tube because of the circulation.
How is the rifle going to fire if you are holding the the bolt back?

Broken thumb from the charging handle being directly above your thumb.

Burns from gas escaping through the now huge slot...

How is the rifle going to fire if you are holding the the bolt back?

Broken thumb from the charging handle being directly above your thumb.

Burns from gas escaping through the now huge slot...


the tubethe funnels the gas so it stays in,front of the tube is enclosed for that reason. i know it wont function if you hold it back, i'm just stating that there isn't a ton of force, not enough to brake thumbs unless your you have some disabelity.

the tubethe funnels the gas so it stays in,front of the tube is enclosed for that reason. i know it wont function if you hold it back, i'm just stating that there isn't a ton of force, not enough to brake thumbs unless your you have some disabelity.




Hey man, if you want to mount this on your rifle with your Leapers scope, UTG quad hand rail, and Tapco side folder, have at it. Personally, I'll leave my rifles the way they are: reliable.

Very much a solution in search of a problem.

If it were nonreciprocating, and retained an enclosed piston I could see it as a potential improvement if it were coupled with a real BHO device. As it is, it just changes the manner in which you charge the weapon. No improvement as far as I can discern.

No..this is all wrong..another attempt at taking a 60+yr proven design and trying to tacti-kewl it!
I see gas blow (possibly worse) issues when the piston moves into the channel area on EACH shot, as well possibly non-intended stress & wear loads on the carrier, since it will attempt to 'bow' up at the piston/carrier mate and carrier will try to climb on the rails when being charged from the front like that.
Yoda


I'm confused on your logic. how will it bow up more? the impulse force from the gas block is what drives the piston back in the first place, how is this any different. there is no change in direction of the force, the piston is actually flowing straighter down the gas tube then it would regularly because if the sleeve over the piston. so actually, when the rifle is being charged this way it is just like it is utilizing the gases from a round.

please chime in.

I'm confused on your logic. how will it bow up more? the impulse force from the gas block is what drives the piston back in the first place, how is this any different. there is no change in direction of the force, the piston is actually flowing straighter down the gas tube then it would regularly because if the sleeve over the piston. so actually, when the rifle is being charged this way it is just like it is utilizing the gases from a round.

please chime in.


I'm going to guess you're the inventor of this farcical attempt at ghetto engineering since you seem to be pimping it out on almost every AK related forum I go to.

So far, it's been met with universal ridicule, especially amongst those who actually use the rifle system. Might I suggest you go back to the drawing board with this one? Here's a challenge for you: Make a steel or polymer AK magazine that can compete with the Bulgarian Waffle in price and reliability. So far, no US magazine maker has been able to.

I'm so confused. All along, I thought the AK was a tried and trued rifle that has been in service for more than 50 years. Its design is simplistic and almost indestructable.

Now, someone has come along with a "better idea" ????

IF it was a good idea, your AK would already have it.

What do you think.....

A.) Mr. K was an idiot with no idea of what he was doing.

B.) Maybe someone has a marketing plan to "convince" AK owners they really need this gimmic.

ahhhhhh the old re-inventing the wheel routine. Nice but not necessary.

I'm going to guess you're the inventor of this farcical attempt at ghetto engineering since you seem to be pimping it out on almost every AK related forum I go to.

Guerrilla marketing 101. "I found this neat product I want to share with you all - out of the kindness of my heart . . .. "

'cept those who practice the ART of guerrilla marketing establish some street cred first - then we slip them the "hey check out this product." Only a freaking amateur does it on his first post.

Guerrilla marketing 101. "I found this neat product I want to share with you all - out of the kindness of my heart . . .. "

'cept those who practice the ART of guerrilla marketing establish some street cred first - then we slip them the "hey check out this product." Only a freaking amateur does it on his first post.


It takes a while to be proceeded by a reputation as good as yours, GP.

Yeah, I figured it was for a really lame viral marketing campaign when "THE RUSSIAN" (feels like it should have a couple of "!" and "1" thrown in) all of a sudden posted this "amazing new tool for the AK" across almost a dozen boards on the same day.

First off, i am not the inventor of this. however, i will say the inventor is a friend of mine. i posted this for two reasons, i want to help the guy out and i truly believe this is a good system. and yes, i already ordered a few for myself. so i will put it on my guns and i'll let you guys know how they perform. to each his own.

looks like something Bruno would buy...

"ist like ze H und K from ze MOTHER-LAND! Ich simply loooooves ze design und thinks zis is VERY in-fashion zis year!"

One would think from your posts that you had actually used the product. Perhaps your opinion of it will have greater merit when you have used it. Watching a video doesn't cut for "field testing"

One would think from your posts that you had actually used the product. Perhaps your opinion of it will have greater merit when you have used it. Watching a video doesn't cut for "field testing"


Please, even that "torture test" in the video was pathetic. If his rifle jammed from throwing some dirt onto a closed bolt then his product would be an even bigger joke than it currently is.

Seems to me that what this guy is trying to do is pretty American. Someone has an idea. They design it, put effort, money and time into its developent. Then they field test it, rework the design, refield test and maybe finally try to market it.

Most try to short cut the field test redesign phase because it is time consuming, expensive and often extremely disappointing. Often they lack the resources or contacts to conduct the necessary testing.

Many years ago I spent some time as the COMM/ET Department head of a SEAL Team based put of Little Creek. As such I got to get in on the developement of several new systems ranging from weapons sights, night vision and communications systems. Rule 1 is simple. Ignore what the seller/manufacturer sez and get it into the field in the hands of an operator. What design engineers think is neat or needed is often very far from what IS neat and needed.

I once had a sales guy from Litton try to sell me some new high speed low drag NVS stuff. After looking it all over and spending some time in the field with it I had to tell him no thanks, it just didn't fit our needs. He was very disappointed to say the least. I then showed him what I was using. I had cut the tubes out of a couple of pairs of PVS-5s and using an electronic hobby box and a circut board I had pieced togeather some monocular NVS. Looked crappy and were hardly as robust as I would have liked, but they fit the bill. (You would never believe the crap I took from Crane NWS when they found out what I was doing)

6 months later the same guy was showing me the M911 monocular. First factory mono I had seen and we bought a ton.

My advice would be this. Find a need. (I don't like the charging system on the AK either.) Design an answer that you think is an improvement. Hand it to people that make their living with it and see what they think.

After looking it all over and spending some time in the field with it I had to tell him no thanks, it just didn't fit our needs.

You're lucky. My experience was "some congressman has these made in his district and you're going to get issued it instead of the far better off-the shelf one you could have bought for 25% the price."

tacti-coooooool.

but 90$ for a rifle that should cost $100 ???

You're lucky. My experience was "some congressman has these made in his district and you're going to get issued it instead of the far better off-the shelf one you could have bought for 25% the price."

And thats the difference between the old SpecWar and the rest. I had a 1.5 million budget for the department and got several money drops of special funds on top of that. A LOT of what I bought was SpecWar specific. It was the early/mid 80's and Four was kinda in the linelight due to our AO.

Sounds like you were in the Marines or worse yet Army. A lot of the crap the Army bought just did not fit our mission profiles, and enough of the brass had the balls to tell it like it was. It was the days of Demo Dick anf the stuff he was doing at Six was paving the way for all of us...

yeah - Army SOCOM. Rangers, then SF.

As an example, we were the first Army unit to be issued the M9 Phobius (sp?) bayonet. We tested it. We broke dozens of them. General consensus was it was a heavy piece of crap that did nothing well.

Army Times reported we all loved it.

Since actually cutting wire with it would cause the hinge to break - the doctrine was changed to "notch" the wire with it, then work the wire back and forth to break it.

The utility of a bayonet aside, we could have bought off the shelf utility knives (K-bar, etc) for 20% the cost, and a few compact bolt cutters per squad.

The additional hassle of having it a "sensitive item" that had to be turned in to the arms room made for a logistical nightmare.

It bothered me so much that I did some analysis of the Defense Acquisition procedures for my graduate degree in strategic studies.

Perhaps Gramm-Rugman (sp?) attempt at curtailing some of the poor spending procedures went too far in the other direction.

I am pleased to see more opportunities for my son's unit today to buy off-the shelf items. There has been significant improvement. But there is lots of room for more. We just have to get the politics out of Material Command. Tough when the budgets are approved by congressional representatives with a duty to "bring home the bacon" to their constituents.

And for the record, I think the invention is interesting - I just don't see how it is an improvement. Different doesn't mean better. And there is no holy grail.

Yes GP,

Well put and, my initiial thoughts too, ineresting, but nothing more... Yoda had a good one w/ folding handle like FALs... Hell, bend/redesign carrier w/ handle up like the R4s/Galils on the side it's already on...

Oh well.... He's been beat round head and shoulders pretty good by now.... We mite have even produced some good Alpha error input or him... THAT didn't cost him anything except his ego...

panzertruppe

Lets not be too hasty. The AK was designed for simplicity of use and manufacture, not ergonomics. To say that the design can't be improved is probably not a fair or correct statement. Not sure that the forward charging handle is an improvement but let a design be tested before you dismiss it out of hand. I saw in shotgun news a new style of safety lever that can be operated by the trigger hand without losing your fireing grip. Looks kinda ugly but definately an improvement over the standart AK safety lever. A mag release you could hit with your index finger without having to move your fireing grip would be a plus too. I think they make em but not sure. I say design away.

I'll bet they could take that concept and design a system that has the lever folding down and non-reciprocating. The kernal is there, maybe it will germinate to something truly remarkable and useful. Why not an FAL style charging handle that would fit onto a strengthened top cover? Just needs someone with the talent to sit and think about it. We never would have moved beyond muzzle loaders if we had stopped with good enough.

Lets not be too hasty. The AK was designed for simplicity of use and manufacture, not ergonomics.


It's amazing how much more ergonomic the AK becomes when you use it as it was designed to be and not as an unergonomic AR...

A mag release you could hit with your index finger without having to move your fireing grip would be a plus too.

Perhaps if you consider magazines a "use once and discard" item.

I think the AK Platform could be improved, I just don't know why you would want to change it. It is what it is.

That is not to say I haven't tried. But beyond a few minor changes (Swift safety and a new rear sight) none made sense for me. I finially desided it just wasn't worth it for me. An AR is an AR, an AK is an AK.

For me the answer was to go the other way around. To many years and to much Rich Uncle training to throw it away on a new weapons platform. After asking myself why I was I trying the AK the answer was up caliber and reliability.
Tried an AR in 7.62x39 and was happy with performance, but reliability was crap. Finally bit the bullet and went piston upper in 6.8SPC.

Everything is a trade off. Now my bitch is ammo availability. It's there, it just ain't cheap. And in most bad situations I'd have to say what I got is all I'll have. And thats why the 5.56 upper sits in the closet along with my store of ammo for it. If the balloon goes up I'll probably be swapping it for the first full auto I can pick up anyway, what ever the platform/caliber may be.

That isn't meant to discourge innovation in others. There are a heck of a lot of smart people out there with good ideas. But this old country boy just doesn't see any way to improve the platform significantly beyond the Valmet with out major redesign, or in other words, a new platform...

Most of the aftermarket items for the AKM rifle have nothing to do with design or function improvemnt...., though they are tagged or stated as such. They are for bling and personalization of the firearm. It is a guy thing to add stuff to cars, motorcycles and firearms..., 95% of which add nothing to the function. TAPCO made a whole business out of non milspec add on items for AKM and SKS rifles. I never use them except the 922r parts. But each to his/her own. If you want a unique and alternative charging system. Here ya go. I don't need it.
I have added my personal touch (aka Bubba) to a few AKM's. :wink_smal
I have no need to crack on someone elses shop work/idea.

I don't know how the military trains but an empty mag in my field is dumped and collected once everything gets sorted out. An empty mag is completely useless, that is, unless you want to smack someone with it.

do you throw the rifle away too when you run out of ammo?

yeah, and I throw away my car when it's out of gas too. Your creating a fallacious syllogism based on false comparison. Try again.

Not really a syllogism since there is a comparison of conclusions. Your statement, however, fits a syllogism.

major premise - an empty magazine is useless
minor premise - a useless item should be discarded
conclusion - an empty magazine should be discarded.

Now using your same (flawed) logic, we have the comparison with an equally valid major premise:

major premise - an empty rifle is useless
minor premise - a useless item should be discarded
conclusion - an empty rifle should be discarded.

See - its YOUR premise that is fundamentally flawed, that is, an empty magazine is not worthless.

For the same reason you don't discard a car when out of gas, or discard a rifle when out of magazines ('cause you discarded them all), magazines should not be discarded, because they can be refilled.

Under stress, people default to their training. If you train to discard your magazines, don't be surprised if your magazines are all 5 clicks back in indian country when your resupply shows up.

Of course, there are times when abandoning a magazine (fumbled reload and dropped it, no time to recover) or even a rifle (operator of more relevant weapon goes down) makes tactical sense. But TRAINING to abandon equipment under the dubious assumption you will be standing in the same spot to recover it later is just silly.

GP's point is valid. You have to be flexible. Dropping kit of any type sez you either didn't think your gear out in the first place, or you are in a shit hole of trouble.

Syllogism: An ancient form of a logical argument, first put forward by Aristotle. A syllogism typically consists of three sentences; two premises, one conclusion. If the premises were true, the conclusion must be true. For example: all left-handed people are smokers. Ann is left-handed. Ann must be a smoker. - I had to look it up.

I'm impressed....

Someone needs to give a class in logical reasoning... And a LOT of people need to take it....

panzertruppe

Sorry you've committed the falacy of false comparison. An empty mag and an empty rifle are two separate and distinct things. Taken to an extreme, saying that once your mother gave birth she is empty and also should then be discarded. Same thing with the car empty of gas. Your logic is flawed by making the apples and oranges arguement. Besides, an empty rifle makes a dandy club if needed. I suppose I could construct a better syllogism but it's been ages since I sat through logic classes. But like fortis said, If emty things are useless and we throw away useless things, then all things empty must be thrown away. The logic doesn't follow as clearly we don't throw away all empty things. Clearly all left handed people are not smokers so the premise is in error.

A=TRUE
B=TRUE
ERGO, C=TRUE

But C isn't always true so we have premis problems.

Again, in my field, i'm never gonna be any click from anything. I don't advertise it but I don't deny it either, I'm a cop, I'm a firearms instructor and have done tactical pistol and three gun matches in the past. We train to NOT PICK UP EMPTY MAGS. My operation is done in an average of 3 seconds (our last shooting lasted 5 seconds from first to last round) and in the event that it goes longer, empty mags are useless and, indeed, can be deadly if one stops to pick them up. Dump em ASAP and reload. You can pick em up later. I suppose in a military setting they may discourage this type of thing for logistical reasons.

Talk about a detour, sorry I went so far afield. And thanks GP, now it's gonna drive me nuts till I can re-construct the argument correctly.

I have not made a logical falicy of the false comparison.

I demonstrated that your premise is false, therefore your conclusion may also be false. I did so using the logical arguement of reductio ad absurdum.

That is, by extending your premise to an absurd conclusion, I show the flaw of the premise.

I figured you either shot in "games" like 3-gun, or were a cop. It's really the only place where discarding equipment has little if any consequence. That and maybe a defensive position from which one cannot retreat.

I'd love to set up a match where they bring only bring a few magazines and expend most of their ammo, then , then have a short break with all the ammo they want - but no new mags.

I don't think LE or 3-gun "tactics" are sound when facing an enemy on even terms. You assume and train for overwhelming superiority with huge backup minutes away. That's fine, but it doesn't necessarily correlate to military or post-Armageddon scenarios.

There have been exercises where I found myself a full terrain feature away from where the shooting started. MOUT is worse - all the freaking rooms look the same at night. Even if I had time to go back for my gear I wouldn't have found it. I trained to live of re-supply - usually by air, sometimes by donkey, and it didn't come with new mags. Gives one a different perspective.

I used to carry a dropbag on my left leg. If the situation allowed the few seconds to stow the mag I would (most DO) If not I would let the mag drop. In my experiance, most situations that would require letting the mag drop are better served by a transistion to the secondary weapon.

And while it peeves me a might, I have to agree with GP on this... competative shooting and police action are completely differant from a soldier/sailor/Marine's actions when combat deployed. The tactics that work well when dealing with drug dealers in Detroit do not necessarily transition well when combating the private armies of the war lords of Afghanistan, or the insurgents in Iraq.

That's the answer, different paradigms altogether.

Funny you say Bubbajj,

That is true, they are apples and oranges thus the tactics... I know this would be better suited for a diff thread, so I'll keep it short...

I was Army, now LEO... I regressed of sorts to "ARMY" lingo/procedure last Fri over Sector radio and of course got the classic, "This isn't the military....", moans and groans... Well, RATELO/Radio procedure in my dept(million people plus city popn) sux... We are in uniforms, we do pack military rifles and pistols, we wear kevlar helmets, we ARE the Army of the City... We ARE neo-military(I really am not comfortable w/ this either, Cops being soldiers)... A more appropriate comment maybe, we aren't the US Army/Marines.... But I would proffer to say, if our department would behave MORE lke the Army under the given/certain circumstances, we'd be better at what we do, ESPECIALLY THE RADIO....

Final comment, SWAT crs instructors said, "The Army is behaving more like a police force and the Police more like an Army..." I have to agree.... We better start training like them too unless there's a big change in this country's culture and crime... So to tie into the original thread's topic, the AK handle here is only a unique item, curious to see and marvel upon. Still needs some serious BETA testing and a problem to exist...

panzertruppe

Oh and use of any ANALOGIES is most often faulty in a logical argument...

Lot being used here;)..... But great discourse...

panzertruppe

Funny you say Bubbajj,

That is true, they are apples and oranges thus the tactics... I know this would be better suited for a diff thread, so I'll keep it short...

I was Army, now LEO... I regressed of sorts to "ARMY" lingo/procedure last Fri over Sector radio and of course got the classic, "This isn't the military....", moans and groans... Well, RATELO/Radio procedure in my dept(million people plus city popn) sux... We are in uniforms, we do pack military rifles and pistols, we wear kevlar helmets, we ARE the Army of the City... We ARE neo-military(I really am not comfortable w/ this either, Cops being soldiers)... A more appropriate comment maybe, we aren't the US Army/Marines.... But I would proffer to say, if our department would behave MORE lke the Army under the given/certain circumstances, we'd be better at what we do, ESPECIALLY THE RADIO....

Final comment, SWAT crs instructors said, "The Army is behaving more like a police force and the Police more like an Army..." I have to agree.... We better start training like them too unless there's a big change in this country's culture and crime... So to tie into the original thread's topic, the AK handle here is only a unique item, curious to see and marvel upon. Still needs some serious BETA testing and a problem to exist...

panzertruppe

Wow, there is so much wrong with this it's not even funny. You are right about one thing, this is not the appropriate thread.

Well Lysander,

Never meant to be funny:)... Just an opinion w/ some credible validatioin based in experience... What Ii hold as true/GVEN is the below:

That is true, they are apples and oranges thus the tactics... I know this would be better suited for a diff thread...

I was Army, now LEO... I regressed of sorts to "ARMY" lingo/procedure last Fri over Sector radio and of course got the classic, "This isn't the military....", moans and groans... Well, RATELO/Radio procedure in my dept(million people plus city popn) sux... We are in uniforms, we do pack military rifles and pistols, we wear kevlar helmets, we ARE the Army of the City... We ARE neo-military(I really am not comfortable w/ this either, Cops being soldiers)... A more appropriate comment maybe, we aren't the US Army/Marines....

Final comment, SWAT crs instructors said, "The Army is behaving more like a police force and the Police more like an Army..."

So to tie into the original thread's topic, the HK handle here is only a unique item, curious to see and marvel upon. Still needs some serious BETA testing and a problem to exist....

We went awry of HK CHARGING SYSTEM many responses ago... I believe it to be an unfortunate reality of things now and to come... Most of this is basic experience from both realms.... W/ skin 2 inches thick, we can continue to conversation civily if you like...

And like an Old Mentor of mine used to say, "Just because we don't agree doesn't make you right;)"....

Let her rip! I have a hvy bag routine to do and I bet there's some good discourse when I return...

W/ a name lke "Lysander" I'd expect a militant/phalangite posture;)...

panzertruppe

Lizzies were rather sneaky, and helped deliver a whole lot of hurt to the Germans. :D

I C...

Germans delivered a lot of hurt to themselves.... Lizzies helped it along I'm sure;)...

panzertruppe

IF IT AIN'T BROKEN, DON'T FIX IT!

And to THE RUSSIAN (if he is Russian) I say:

Что за чорт? Тебе не стыдно? Ради денег ты оскорбляешь самую знаменитую винтовку в истории человечества. Иуда, возьми свои 30 серебрянных и уходи как можно дальше! Наплевать!

Mike

I C...

Germans delivered a lot of hurt to themselves.... Lizzies helped it along I'm sure;)...

panzertruppe


Though I'm also a fan of the Admiral from whom the Lysander derived it's name. :small_gri

Me too,

The man whom modeled the Spartan Credo/Culture for years... Scorned wealth.... Instituted iron as money... It rusted and you had to carry tons of the stuff to have any value in Sparta... Ergo, the desire for wealth in lieu of warriorhood was eliminated... Amazing man... Instituted the Spartan 2 King system too(many other things as well)...

The "lizzie" was pretty modern for its time... Became obsolete because of WWII and the speed of wartime technology... Weird looking plane...

panzertruppe

colorado shooting sports makes the Lightning Bolt

http://www.coloradoshootingsports.com/AKIntro.html



Hi. Newbie here. Both to this board and to AKs. :D

Does anyone here have any real life experience with the Colorado Shooting Sports Lightning Bolt? If so, could you please give your thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

- j

Hi. Newbie here. Both to this board and to AKs. :D

Does anyone here have any real life experience with the Colorado Shooting Sports Lightning Bolt? If so, could you please give your thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

- j
Please start a new thread for your question.

Thanks.

Please start a new thread for your question.

Thanks.


So as not to interfere with the Russian's "guerrilla marketing" commercial advertisement by mentioning a competing product?

Me too,

The man whom modeled the Spartan Credo/Culture for years... Scorned wealth.... Instituted iron as money... It rusted and you had to carry tons of the stuff to have any value in Sparta... Ergo, the desire for wealth in lieu of warriorhood was eliminated... Amazing man... Instituted the Spartan 2 King system too(many other things as well)...


The Diarchy between the Agiads and Eurypontids was established long before Lysander. You're confusing him with Lycurgus.

So as not to interfere with the Russian's "guerrilla marketing" commercial advertisement by mentioning a competing product?


Oh, sorry. I thought that since it was already brought up it was fair game.

So as not to interfere with the Russian's "guerrilla marketing" commercial advertisement by mentioning a competing product?
Not at all.

He'll get more exposure for his question with a new thread.

Lots of folks have been ignoring this one for a while.