For Michiganders

Have wanted to build or purchase a Yugo M70 underfolder. I have received nothing but double sided information on this, both from the AG's office, State police and even some gun dealers.

Here in essence is the Michigan law.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf
The discussion of firearm length is in opinion 6280 (page 186 of document but actually page 191 of the PDF file):

"A rifle with a barrel of at least 16 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less
than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a ‘short-barreled rifle’ whose sale or possession
is prohibited."

Now a dealer said I could buy one and register it as a pistol in Michigan and a rifle Federally. A local police official said the same thing.

I disagree with their logic as follows.

1. The original brake would have to be pre soldered on

2. even at that the total length of the m70 folded is 3/8 less then 26" required by law

3. how would it get to be a pistol with an active folding stock

4 SBR's are illegal in Michigan

5. Is it legal to even purchase an underfolder receiver in this state.
( as half the dealers that I have receivers delivered to don't know shit on this law )


The sad truth is in this ASSHOLE state there is so much conflicting, non black and white info that I have backed off.

Yet, AK m70 underfolders have been seen by me on the shelves of now 2 gun shops!

WTF is up with this?

swoops

As I understand MI law, if it's under 26" folded and has a stock on it, it is an SBR according to a MI AG opinion. If it is over 26" long folded, but under 30-something inches it is a pistol under MI law, even if it has a stock. MI law states anything under the 30-something limit must be registered as a pistol, doesn't matter if it has a stock or not. Once it get's under 26" the SBR ban kicks in.

Fed law has no bearing on state law as far as rifle or pistol, the Feds just care if it's under 26" opened or less than 16" bbl.

A receiver has no bbl, so there is no length issues until you install one. Leave the stock off and build as a pistol, no SBR issues in MI. You could always add the stock later if you move. Remember, the folded versus open measurement thing is simply an AG opinion, it has never been tested in court. They might interpret it differently.

agreed krink,
but the yugo underfolder is under 26" folder from receiver tip to the "high" point of the slant brake. As it is configured in the store, it is illegal. For it to be legally sold, a permenant brake, slightly longer would have to allready be on it.

If I build one I will do that, but for the life of me, how can they deem it a pistol with a folding stock when I thought it illegal to add a stock to a pistol, thus making it an SBR.

Somebody else out there measure their yugo M70 underfolders overall length from tip of receiver to long thip of slant brake and the give me the overall same measurement without the brake on it.

I could just see some poor fool, getting in front of a anti gunner judge and this "vagueness" being used against them.

swoops

Throw in the confusion about how you measure overall length (end of receiver or the pistol grip) and it gets worse.

I have given up the idea of building my Polish UF as an UF and will build it as a fixed stock rifle.

Bunk

Welcome Bunk,

Krink has stated the proper way to measure before, I believe from breach face to the shortest point on a slant brake, if permenant, or to end of exposed barrel if brake is removable. That gives you the true barrel length. Hence the ability to solder on a longer brake to be included in the 16"

Overall length is with the folder folded ( duh) to get total length again from receiver rear to the shortest point of a brake( if permenant attachment is necessary) or the tip of the barrel with the brake off.

Now you could affix an ace side folder to your rifle as it protrudes from the rear of your receiver ( i'm not positive but maybe an inch or more).

That added length would give you an overall minimum length of 26" as Michigan requires.

But unless I can't measure, that M70 sitting on the shelf fails the minimum length test and as it sits there it is illegal!

swoopster

Decipher this:

PISTOLS:
Firearm fully operable when folded or contracted with length of 30 inches or less as a pistol
SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE:
Rifle fully operable with stock folded or contracted as a ‘short-barreled rifle’
SHORT-BARRELED SHOTGUN:
Shotgun fully operable with stock folded or contracted as a ‘short-barreled shotgun’
WEAPONS:
Firearm fully operable when folded or contracted with length of 30 inches or less as a pistol
A firearm containing a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of 30 inches or less and being fully operable
in such contracted or folded condition is a pistol requiring licensure for purchase, carrying or transport, and is subject to
safety inspection.
A rifle with a barrel of at least 16 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less
than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a ‘short-barreled rifle’ whose sale or possession
is prohibited.
A shotgun with a barrel of at least 18 inches in length and a stock capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length
of less than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded condition, is a ‘short-barreled shotgun’ whose sale or
possession is prohibited.
Colonel Gerald L. Hough
Director
Michigan Department of State Police
714 S. Harrison Road
East Lansing, MI 48823
You have requested my opinion on two questions relating to certain firearms. Examples of the types of firearms at issue include
the UZI semiautomatic carbine rifle (barrel length—16.1 inches; length with stock contracted—24.4 inches; length with
stock expanded—31.5 inches); the Remington 870P shotgun (barrel length—18 inches; length with stock folded—28.5 inches;
length with stock unfolded—38.5 inches); and the Universal Firearms #5000-PT semiautomatic carbine rifle (barrel length—18
inches; length with stock folded—27 inches; length with stock unfolded—36 inches).
Your first question is:
Are firearms with folding and/or telescoping stocks which are fully operable with the stocks folded or contracted and whose
lengths are 30 inches or less with the stocks folded or contracted ‘pistols,’ as defined in MCL 28.421 et seq; MSA 28.91 et seq,
and, thus, subject to the provisions contained therein?
The definition of the term ‘pistol’ is set forth in subsection (a) of MCL 28.421; MSA 28.91:
“Pistol’ means any firearm, loaded or unloaded, 30 inches or less in length, or any firearm, loaded or unloaded,
which by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm.’
‘Firearm’ is defined in MCL 8.3t; MSA 2.212(20):
‘The word ‘firearm’, except as otherwise specifically defined in the statutes, shall be construed to include any weapon
from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas or air as a means of propulsion,
except any smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB’s not exceeding
.177 caliber by means of spring, gas or air.’
In Huron Advertising Co v Charter Twp of Pittsfield, 110 Mich App 398, 402; 313 NW2d 132 (1981), lv den, 414 Mich 855
(1982), the court stated:
‘All words and phrases in ordinances and statutes must be construed according to their common and approved
usage…Effect must also be given to each part of a sentence, so as not to render another part nugatory…Judicial
construction of a statute or ordinance is inappropriate where the language of the statute is unambiguous.’
No. 6280 FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — OPINIONS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 186
The definition of the term ‘pistol’ in MCL 28.421; MSA 28.91, is unambiguous. It clearly covers all firearms which are not
more than 30 inches in length. The firearms which are described generally in the first question and specifically in the examples
are fully operable when they are 30 inches or less in length and are pistols under MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92.
MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92, provides that no person shall purchase, carry or transport a pistol without first obtaining a license
therefor. A person who owns or comes into possession of a pistol is required to present such weapon for safety inspection to the
applicable local law enforcement officer in accordance with MCL 28.429; MSA 28.99.
It is my opinion, therefore, that a firearm which may be contracted or folded to 30 inches or less and is fully operable in such
condition is a pistol requiring licensure for purchase, carrying or transport, and is subject to safety inspection.
Your second question is:
Are rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches in length, respectively, with folding and/or
telescoping stocks which are fully operable with the stocks folded or contracted and whose lengths are less than
26 inches with the stocks folded or contracted ‘short-barreled rifles’ and ‘short-barreled shotguns,’ respectively, as
defined in MCL 750.222 et seq; MSA 28.419 et seq, and, thus, subject to the provisions contained therein?
MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419, in pertinent part, provides:
‘(d) ‘Shotgun’ means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire
through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single function of the trigger.
‘(e) ‘Short-barreled shotgun’ means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon
made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall
length of less than 26 inches.
‘(f) ‘Rifle’ means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and
designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire
only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
‘(g) ‘Short-barreled rifle’ means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made
from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of
less than 26 inches.’
MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(1), provides that a person who manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or possesses a short-barreled
shotgun or a short-barreled rifle is guilty of a felony. This section specifically exempts from its provisions the sale, offering
for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun which the Secretary of the Treasury of the United
States has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece, or collector’s item not likely to be used as a weapon, but only if the
person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has fully complied with the provisions of MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92
and MCL 28.429; MSA 28.99.
The firearms which are referred to in the second question will fall within the definition of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled
shotgun only if they are considered to have been made from a rifle or shotgun ‘by alteration, modification, or otherwise’
and are capable of being folded or contracted to less than 26 inches in length. It is unclear what is meant by the phrase ‘by
alteration, modification, or otherwise’ as used in MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419.
To resolve a perceived ambiguity, a court will look to the object of the statute or rule, the evil or mischief which it is designed
to remedy, and will apply a reasonable construction which best accomplishes the purpose of the statute or rule. Johnston v Billot,
109 Mich App 578, 589, 590; 311 NW2d 808 (1981), lv den, 414 Mich 955 (1982). In construing a statute, legislative intent
may be determined from consideration of all provisions of the enactment in question. Wheeler v Tucker Freight Lines Co, Inc.,
125 Mich App 123, 126; 336 NW2d 14 (1983), lv den, 418 Mich 867 (1984).
It has been held that the term ‘alteration’ means a change of a thing from one form or state to another, making it different
from what it was without destroying its identity. Paye v City of Grosse Pointe, 279 Mich 254, 257; 271 NW 826 (1937).
It is clear that if a person altered or modified a rifle or a shotgun with a fixed stock by shortening that stock so that the overall
length of the rifle or the shotgun was less than 26 inches, such a firearm would fall within the definition of a short-barreled rifle
or a short-barreled shotgun. Sale or possession of such firearms is prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2):
‘(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.
‘(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years,
or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.’
187 FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — OPINIONS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL No. 6280
In order to effectuate the legislative intent to limit the presence of such weapons in this state, a rifle or a shotgun which can
be lengthened and shortened at will must also be considered as a weapon made from a rifle or a shotgun by alteration, modification,
or otherwise when it is capable of being less than 26 inches in length by folding or contracting its stock.
It is noted that the UZI semiautomatic carbine rifle is a short-barreled rifle since it is capable of being contracted to an overall
length of 24.4 inches and is fully operable in this condition. The Remington 870P shotgun has a barrel 18 inches in length and
an overall length of 28.5 inches with the stock folded, and, therefore, it is not a short-barreled shotgun. The Universal Firearms
#5000-PT semiautomatic carbine rifle has a barrel length of 18 inches and an overall lenght [sic] of 27 inches with the stock
folded, and, thus, it is not a short-barreled rifle.
It is my opinion, in answer to your second question, that rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches
in length, respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks, which are fully operable with stocks folded or contracted, and
whose lengths are less than 26 inches with stocks folded or contracted, fall within the definitions of ‘short-barreled rifle’ and
‘short-barreled shotgun,’ and their sale or possession is prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2).
Frank J. Kelley
Attorney General

If I build one I will do that, but for the life of me, how can they deem it a pistol with a folding stock when I thought it illegal to add a stock to a pistol, thus making it an SBR.


swoopsYou are confusing Fed and state laws. Fed and state law are totally separate animals. Fed law sez an underfolder overall length is measured with the stock open, not folded. As long as it has a 16" bbl and over 26" overall with the stock extended it is just a rifle under fed law and not an SBR or even a pistol. That's all they care about.

MI, however, has their own laws about what constitutes a rifle, an SBR, and a pistol, totally separate and different from Fed law. They measure with the stock folded, so something that would not be an SBR under Fed law becomes one under state law if it is under 26" folded. MI couldn't care less what the Feds call it, their own law applies. Under 30 inches, ANY firearm in MI is considered a pistol, stock or no stock because that is how the state law is written. Again, what the Feds classify it as is irrelevant. The Feds also don't care what MI calls it, as far as they are concerned it's still a rifle.

If gunshops are selling under 26" overal length folded rifles as pistols, they are actually selling illegal firearms under MI state law.

Thank you for that clarification Krink.
I knew I was getting part of it wrong. Still it amazes me that both some gun retailers as well as public officials can't figure it out. Funny thing is I had exhausted this effort a couple of years ago when one major gun retailer seen on these boards wouldn't ship to me a yugo M70 because of the law so I called another who said, no problem, we do it all the time!

still crazy after all these years

swoops,

Move to Indiana or Ohio.

You are better off without all those dumbass laws.