Fun morning on the range... Trip #2 udpate

[ronin]

Okay, I finally got down to the range and tested some of the rifles.

First up, I had re-worked the center support on the first weld build to bring the rails in a little bit. It functioned flawless through about 60 rounds today. It looks like heck but will get abrasive blasted and finished with molyresin shortly.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/RangeReport/DSC_0008.jpg

Second, up was the AMMS. It has a feed ramp problem that is pretty routine with the plastic promags (two of four promags wouldn't feed at all into the AMMS) but rare with the steel Romanian mags I had. I'm going to adjust the ramp a bit so the upward feed angle isn't so abrupt. Accuracy was great and the trigger will take some getting use to. The Falcon springs gives the rifle a different feel from my other AKMs - especially the trigger.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/RangeReport/DSC_0002.jpg

I was using a Caldwell shot bag so shooting was nice and stable. At 25 yards it was firing a 1.5-2" five shot group no problem. At 50 yards it opened up to about 3" because I couldn't see the little 5" target I was using very well. This is going to be a fun gun once its feed problem is sorted out.

So, last but not least is the heavy barrel target. The ammo was 124 grain Golden Tiger FMJBT (I think all of their ammo is of this type). As previously mentioned, I've had very good luck with this ammo.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/RangeReport/DSC_0015.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/RangeReport/DSC_0019.jpg

I sighted in the scope at 25 yards and the results looked promising.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/RangeReport/DSC_0021.jpg

I picked the rifle up and moved back to 50 yards after those five rounds. Hey ... the zero changed a lot ... okay, I'll rezero the scope and make sure all the thumbscrews are tight. So, then I got the following:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/RangeReport/DSC_0027.jpg

Not too bad ... not too bad... so then I shoot at a smaller target on the sheet ... first one hits dead center ... next one misses and then the next one misses ... they are about 8 inches away ... what the heck? At that point, Mr. Chinese scope gave up holding a zero at all. I tried and tried chasing the zero and could never get it again - the zero changed with each shot or two. Piece of crap. I should have known to avoid a copycat. There is a lot more recoil on this rifle than on a gas action AK and I don't think the scope could handle it.

I had a very good platform to shoot from so I'm pretty confident it was the scope.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/RangeReport/DSC_0024.jpg

Soooo.... I'm probably going to buy a Millett scope. I have a TRS-1 on my AR but I don't want to spend that much for this AK. Any recommendations on a good scope under $300 would be appreciated. I've heard Burris is a good mid-grade scope but haven't owned one. I can definitely live without an illuminated recticle.

Other things I noticed while shooting about a 100 rounds through this:
Needed to cycle backwards quickly to get a good ejection. A slow rearward stroke would leave the empty in the chamber. The shortened recoil spring wasn't stout enough to keep the carrier all the way forward 100% of the time after firing. I have a spare spring so this isn't a problem to fix. There seems to be a bit of binding by the carrier as it goes by the ejector. I'm going to check that one carefully before I do anything. I might move one of my Red Star Arms triggers over to this rifle. The polished G2 is okay but it would be good to have a lighter and shorter pull.So, it was a fun time and a little bit of work to do coming out.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[ronin]

All fixed for now until I can get to the range next.
Put a full length recoil spring in the bolt carrier.
Moved to a two part recoil tube guide - that solved the binding.
Used a long grinder bit in the dremel to gently bevel a ramp all the way across the AMMS trunion "shelf". Interestingly, the AMMS has a very small area beveled whereas a Romy has a large bevel. I also noticed the AMMS has a bevel at the bottom of the chamber whereas a Romy doesn't have one (or at least the one I had to compare to doesn't). In testing with three zoom snapcap test cartridges, the promags fed all three without any jamming nose first into the sides of the breach area.
I cleaned the bearing grease out that I use to break in rifles, cleaned the bbls and then used Breakfreee CLP. I'm liking that to lube my AKs.
Midway has good prices on Millett scopes - around $190-200 with target turrets and a mil-dot recticle. I guess I'll save up for one of those and wait until then before I can test further.

[jwc0506]

Congrats! it sounds like you AMPLE fun outhere man! I am awaiting a kit i sent to RED JACKET firearm's to build for me from a tip i got from a member here. The reasoning behind it - was the help retain it's VALUE since the build with be done by a pro vs homebuild where you'd lose over all value.can't wait to fire that when it gets here. also, i can't wait to get my Nodak reciever in so that i can complete this Classic romy i am starting right now! anyhow, glad you got some satisFACTORY RESULTS OUTHERE! kEEP THEM COMING!

[jwc0506]

ronin - real cool ya got sum mod springs! i actually am lookin into the wollf recoil spprings for my next romie.... i needa read more about your springs you used as i just visted you're post here... Ronin - i have a pa 63 pocket pistol and i had changed over to a 15 lb wolf recoil spring and man did it make a huge dif! way less recoil and smoother action. do you feel you get that outa your springs to?

i have 1 suggestion, cause i noticed you opted for a longer stock on the amms... get a -tapco rubber buttstock extension for the romie if ya prefer more length. i got one and i like it cause i am over 6foot tall and prefer my stock a smidge longer. it also will lessen felt recoil on the shoulder.

one other suggestion, maybe stick to standard akm mags if you can. i never promags, i use yugo and polish mags(30 rounders), had a norinco but sold it, need to get some Hungarian mags and maybe a 40 round romy mag. the best mag i think is the yugo bolt hold open mags - ya might get one if you can still find one. that's about all i can think of suggestion wise.

be careful with the modified weapon making! i don't get involved in that cause i don't know about; what works with what etc... plus i don't have any machining tools, knor the proper data to pull it off so.....just be careful - that's all. i would suggest you tear um all down and stick to the basic AK platform-but that's just my own .02. leave the mods to the diehards.... lol. i don't say this will ill will, it's more a concern for SAFETY. and we all know how damaging 7.62 is to our innanimate targets etc....... i don't even want to think how hurt one would be if something went haywire due to issue of parts not working right....... that said, i'd say don't do it. it's really not worth it. but you need to make that decision yourself.

[ronin]

Thanks JWC.

The promags are fun at the range but I wouldn't use them if my life depended on them.

You can see a lot of changes JWC, but the safety parts I worry about the most - the bolt and barrel chamber - are unaltered.

[bigwheel]

what holds the weaver rail in the rear? I can't see it being strong enough to
not bend under recoil with the weight of the scope on it?

[ronin]

what holds the weaver rail in the rear? I can't see it being strong enough to not bend under recoil with the weight of the scope on it?
That's 1/4" x 1" 4130 bar steel that is welded to the RSB. It's rock solid and then to top it off the picatinny rail is screwed in place and that makes it even stiffer.

[jwc0506]

ronin - that sounds safer that it's un-altered... no-offence to folks doin cal conversions, but man when i hear guys doin this stuff i wonder when one's gonna bite the dust! when is that round to hit the chamber and explode! oh Gawd!? can ya imagine the gory site it would be....... guess some folks are just plain die hards!? It's scarey enough to do a basic homebuild - yet we have our cal conversion guys outhere...... i guess if they know what they are doing. and the stuff is all lining up to "FIT", and hopefully the parts are treated right etc, etc......... oh god all of the what if's going thru my mind makes just wonder....... when is one of those things going to EXPLODE! lol. it just sound funny how i worded it, but jeez could any of ya picture a botched build blowing up!? i won't wright any more about it... i think we all got the idea.:cry_small

[Ding]

first off fantastic builds bud.my hats off to ya as always..now,your rail is warping on ya ronin.it will always run on you because of heat and cold and recoil,both outside sources and weapon related.I would lose that in favor of at least a side rail..you will never control your zero no matter what scope ya use.now this is just a suggestion only..I know ya put a lot of work into that rail.that thing should be smackin dime size holes at 25 and nickle to quarter sized at fifty.

[RemMax]

Hey Ronin Glad to see your accuratcy is improving, sux about the scope though. I have had similar problems with cheap scopes in the past, pretty much gotten rid of all them now fortunately! :>

Anyway I have found that the Bushnell 3x9x40 is a pretty decent scope for under $100, ($60 to $70 range) You can still find them at Walmart sometimes but if not they are advertised a lot of places. I have several of them mounted on things like Ruger 10/22's as well as 1 on a Rem 700 in .270, and 2 .50 cal muzzle loaders I have had good luck with all of them so for. In fact my Father has had one mounted on a Rem 742 in 30-06 for over 25 years now with good service from it. A lot of folks don't like Bushnell but to each his own, IMO they are definetly worth a try, on any mid size caliber wheather bolt or semi they hold up fine and hold there zero. I don't really see where your scope mount should cause any problem though, not since you replaced the JB Weld with Screw's!!! (lol) Another Bushnell I still use is the 4x12x40 AO, this is also a decent scope but is probably more than you will need on a 7.62x39 platform. Give one of these a try, I think you might be surprised how well they work for the $$$ spent on them. Oh yea, Be sure to stay away from anything made by Tasco! I had one of those that brand new could not put 2 rounds on the same peice of paper! I replaced it with a Busnell on my TC Encore 209x50 Muzzle Loader I hunt with back 9 years ago and the Bushnell instantly printed a good group and is still on the rifle today! (got a nice 4 pointer (at 115 yards) with it this past season) :-}
Nice job on your rifle, keep up the good work
RemMax

[ronin]

first off fantastic builds bud.my hats off to ya as always..now,your rail is warping on ya ronin.it will always run on you because of heat and cold and recoil,both outside sources and weapon related.I would lose that in favor of at least a side rail..you will never control your zero no matter what scope ya use.now this is just a suggestion only..I know ya put a lot of work into that rail.that thing should be smackin dime size holes at 25 and nickle to quarter sized at fifty.
Hmmmm....... do you think so? It's anchored to the RSB. I guess it could be getting warm but I dunno .... rats. The RSB never felt warm. I was checking it for cracks, etc.

Wouldn't you see a trend with the warping though ding? That thing was throwing a bullet wildly different with each shot. Probably as much as 8-15" variation at times all over the place. Nothing subtle at all. For the last 30-60 rounds I could not get the scope zeroed ever.

[ronin]

Thank you for the tips Remmax - much appreciated. Yeah, I'm not going to live down that epoxy stupidity.

[Ding]

yup,your getting fluctuations after ya are zeroed.ya got no stability at the rear.now if ya put an anchor at the rear,ya might be able to hold it closer but I don't know the scope make/quality either.I had a similar problem with a scope mount for my M-14 once.it was a B square screw on.I would find zero and after a couple to a few shots it would start walk all over the paper and off.I had an extra screw anchor added and it cured my problem.I had an el cheapo tasco 8-24 on it at the time.I thought it was the scope and put my ART II back on and zeroed it,fired a few,took it off and refired.shot in the same hole.put the tasco on,zeroed,fired,took it off,put it back on,fired,same hole.not sayin this is the problem,but could be a place to look at.maybe put a wedge under the rear to give it some stability and refire.it might be just a simple thing,but then it might be the scope to.my first guess would be the rail.to me with that much exposed with no stability at the rear,the scope and rail would be bouncing around with heat and recoil reflexion.I could be totally wrong here,hope I am and it is just a simple thing that is obvious to you.still an awsome rig tho.

[ronin]

I could mount a bar on the side where a rail mount usually goes and then connect it to the one on the top. I was banking on that heavy 1 x 1/4" piece of 4130 steel alloy bar under the rail to provide the necessary rigidity - it sure won't be the first or last time I guessed wrong.

The scope was a Chinese knock off copy of one of the Leupold scopes. My tendency is to point a finger at that first, but I also am thinking maybe I ought to go ahead and fabricate some kind of side brace to further stabilize the rail as you mention. Kind of like the combloc side rail but it would be screwed (or maybe plug welded) to the receiver and welded to the top rail.

[ronin]

Guys, I am in a bit of a funk about the scope and am thinking about how to fund a replacement and a few other projects that I am working on where I still need to buy furniture, etc.

I'm seriously considering selling off three 1980s Romy G kits that I got from DPH. They are in pretty good shape (meaning the metal looks good but the wood has a ton of cosmo & old varnish on it that looks rough) and matching numbers. What are these selling for these days? I did a bit of searching and the prices seem to be all over the board starting around $185 and then going up.

Part of me says selling them is a bad idea. Part of me is impatient and wants to do other projects. Arrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhh......... it's driving me nuts. I'm really torn on this one..... 60% says keep and 40% says sell. Just enough to drive me over the edge :-) BTW, the 40% says "how many romys do I really need anyways?" I've built a number of them with different styles of furniture. Heck, I even have one that I've only shot one time since I built it over a year ago.

Thoughts?

[motorhead]

beryl mount?

[ronin]

Good suggestion motorhead ... I could potentially fab a rear portion to connect like that. Hmmm... it would need a strong tight hinge though. I'm not sure how to do that with the tools I have. Definitely something for me to think about.

[jeff47]

First off I really like your heavy barrel build.

Oh and I'd keep the kits, at this rate they'll be worth $300 in six months. :rolleyes:

I would also agree with Ding, the mount is cool looking but it looks like a big lever on top. To rule out the scope I'd just drop it on something you know shoots straight like your AR and run a few mags through. At least you'll be able to rule out the scope before you refab the whole mount.

Just my 2 cents.

[ronin]

Thanks Jeff.

Good idea on the scope. I ought to put it on one of my good rifles and see.

[Ding]

you could fab a pistolgrip mount that connects to the grip screwbase/nut,and attach to the rail via weld or screw.it would sit/connect under the pistol grip like a grip support for the bulgy and angle up to connect to the rail.my guess it isn't the scope.this way ya can either rule out the rail and or the scope..if it tightens up the groups and keeps it from wandering,you can keep the rail as is then.don't sell the kits man,you will only regret it later...hang in there and give it more time.it's a small thing to fix my friend.try the scope on another rifle

[ronin]

Alright ... I won't sell the kits. It didn't take much to make me change my mind Ding :-) I just needed to hear it from others too.

[Ding]

yeah buddy you won't regret that decision,about the kits..the other problem ya are having is just a matter of diagnose and elimination.it can drive ya batty sometimes but man after ya conquer that sucker you get this warm fuzzy feelin.I am goin ta start on some FAL kits soon as I got rid of mine a couple or three months ago.they weren't kits tho..so my headaches will start to.I'll be in the same boat,sorta.LOL

[ronin]

I'm going to remove the scope on my AR (although it makes my stomach hurt to pull a $400 scope off to put on a $50 scope :-) and put the Chinese one on. At 0.50 MOA, it will show if the scope works.

Alternatively, I may take another good scope and stick it on the HB rifle and see.

[ronin]

BTW, buy beer Ding - lots of beer :-)

[RemMax]

I'm going to remove the scope on my AR (although it makes my stomach hurt to pull a $400 scope off to put on a $50 scope :-) and put the Chinese one on. At 0.50 MOA, it will show if the scope works.


Alternatively, I may take another good scope and stick it on the HB rifle and see.
That should tell you if it is the scope or rail, I would not have guessed the rail to cause a problem but hey I still make mistakes on a regular basis too!!!


If you do decide to make a rear support for your rail, you might think of making it sort of like my Super Vepr has.
On the Vepr Super the scope rail fits onto the rear sight block and then has a inverted V shape at the rear. It is attached on the rear by two points on the side of the receiver, BUT for yours it shouldn't be to hard to figure out a way to mount it to the sides of your receiver. Hell you could use screws if you wanted, that way if you wanted to take it off for cleaning, etc... it would be easy enough to do, Flat bar stock, bent to inverted V the width of receiver sides with a flat area at the top to go below rail and attach with a screw. If you want I can e-mail you a pic of my Vepr Super scope rail, I can't post it as I don't know how to get it to come up on this board. Anyway the Super Vepr mount is a quick detach model from the factory and it works pretty well. it returns to zero after being removed and fits really close to the top cover (dam I wish I could make pics post) Either way though, supporting the rear of your mount surely wont hurt anything, and with luck it might solve all your problems to!
Also when you take your AR scope off you might try mounting it onto your HB to see how well it performs on it. That way you either eliminate or confirm your HB scope.
Just a thought.
RemMax

[ronin]

The Super Vepr looks pretty cool. Starting on page 23 of the user's manual they show the scope mount. That's pretty slick.
http://www.ak47.net/content/manuals/SuperVEPRManual.pdf

I also ran across this interesting page:
http://club.guns.ru/eng/vepr.html

[ronin]

By the way, to post pics, open a free www.photobucket.com (http://www.photobucket.com) account and upload your photos there sized to 800x600. Then copy the IMG code straight into the message and your pictures will then show up:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/8dfe7539.jpg

[jwc0506]

Guys, I am in a bit of a funk about the scope and am thinking about how to fund a replacement and a few other projects that I am working on where I still need to buy furniture, etc.

I'm seriously considering selling off three 1980s Romy G kits that I got from DPH. They are in pretty good shape (meaning the metal looks good but the wood has a ton of cosmo & old varnish on it that looks rough) and matching numbers. What are these selling for these days? I did a bit of searching and the prices seem to be all over the board starting around $185 and then going up.

Part of me says selling them is a bad idea. Part of me is impatient and wants to do other projects. Arrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhh......... it's driving me nuts. I'm really torn on this one..... 60% says keep and 40% says sell. Just enough to drive me over the edge :-) BTW, the 40% says "how many romys do I really need anyways?" I've built a number of them with different styles of furniture. Heck, I even have one that I've only shot one time since I built it over a year ago.

Thoughts?sell 1 kit keep 2.... the prices i think will be going up! remember there are no more kits coming into the country. unless some ruling is over turned and we get a wave of kits coming in - id keep a few.

[FL-AK]

...i would suggest you tear um all down and stick to the basic AK platform-but that's just my own .02. leave the mods to the diehards.... lol. .

Maybe he's a "diehard"

I think the HB is neat and his work looks safe to me

[ronin]

Went to the range for an hour this morning with a second scope and both sighted it in and watched what happened as the barrel and RSB warmed up.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/Range%20Report%20070908/DSC_0001.jpg

The scope's initial point of impact was about a foot high and to the right by about four inches. I then shot four rounds to get it down on the target and then four more to get it in the ballpark. You can see I was working in the diamond with seven more shots (4+4+7=15 total).

Round 16 went off and hit the bottom right diamond. The RSB was definitely warm by this time. It wasn't hot but it was warm after shooting for about 10 minutes.

Now, I then wanted to be clear about the bullet holes and aimed at the lower left circle. It then threw the last two right next to each other by the target circle on the right side.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/Range%20Report%20070908/DSC_0005.jpg

The RSB was definitely warm by now. The heat was travelling up the barrel to the RSB and even the front of the rail was warm.

My conclusion is that Ding is right. As the RSB warms up the rail is warping! Wow - I would never have guessed it. Great call Ding.

Now, I'm going to seriously look into stabilizing the rail. I may go with a heavy bar to the side to get strength and rigidity to the left and right as well as up and down. I'm not sure that I can counter the warping if I just go straight back.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t221/gspafford/Range%20Report%20070908/DSC_0013.jpg

At least now I know what I am dealing with! I'll have to wait for some free time either this weekend or maybe late next week.

[ronin]

Also, the AMMS works flawlessly with military mags. I shot a Romanian 30, one Hungarian 20 and one of the new clear Bulgarian 30s. No jams.

If I tried a Promag, it would feed the first round fine and the second one jammed. I tried this twice and just figured that I'll skip promags for the rest of the day and then used the other mags without a single jam or problem of any kind.

Why would the Promags feed the round up so abruptly that the nose of the bullet jams into the roof of the chamber but the real military magazines do not??

In case you are wondering, and to head of criticism, when I was new to AKs I bought about a dozen promags before I was told to avoid them. They are handy at the range because they are clear and you can see rounds remaining. I have a couple of the clear Bulgarians and they work great. Anyways, it's nice to use the promags as I have them but it's not a "must use them" situation.

[Ding]

glad to hear ya found it ronin.doesn't take much heat to fluctuate the bar.here is a suggestion.run a 1/2" bar with a 1"x1" TAB in the center of it along the full length of the rail and attach it.then attach a support from the rear of the rail down to the receiver side.the full length being an ANTI warping rigid bar to help stableize the center part of the rail,because of the gap from RSB to rear of rail and the 1"x1" in center to take the warping out.now this is just a suggestion buddy.it is how I would do it if this was mine with the setup ya have and not redoin the whole thing.I'm sure you or someone else might have a better idea.but with what ya have already it's what I would look at anyway..those two last shots are what that thing should be doin..can't wait to see that thing finished and shootin great.it won't be long now..

as for the promags,the feed lips and springs are new.ya might try swapping the followers out of the pros and put them in a AK mag to see if they do the same thing and vise versa.just a thought.I think if the pros get worked in enought they will settle(broke in) down.mine did but I gave them to mandy.

[jwc0506]

ronin - never tried promags, but it sounds like you might have to dremel or file off a sliver or 2 to make it fit better... i would see if there's any scuff marks on the mag 1st. then i would just file it down and check fit the mag again. the reason i say this, is cause i have a plastic circle 10 bulgy mag that works on my 74, then another one won't(yet it's the same type of mag!). i am thinking of trying to file off a sliver(little at a time)-then hoping it will work well. i think it should do it! i just never had to do this yet. have any of you had to modify a mag to fit it? another option would be to file the stablaizers a sliver. but i'd rather take it out on the mag... anyone.

[TopGun]

Promags suck, just like USA mags. Load them up and they make a great doorstop though!:rolleyes:

YMMV,

John H. in NH

[ronin]

Ding, I think I'll add something to the side and then mount against the receiver where the side rail would have been. I don't have room to add metal under the existing scope base and I can't afford to go higher either - I wanted the scope as close to the bbl as I could get it and am high as it is.

It's rather stunning to me that the existing piece can warp. I wonder what would happen if I added another bar on top as well. That would be a half inch of 4130 and then run down to the side. I have the metal so it's not like I need to buy anything and I don't care about the weight because I actually want the rifle to be heavy.

[ronin]

Yeah, no more Promags. I haven't bought any in two years. I'll check the followers out at some point and compare.

[Ding]

hey ronin,how ya doin..didn't mean to add to the rail top.just add a piece off to the left side of the rail.like angle iron will look.90 degrees down along the side of the rail.yeah an anchor piece will help immensly..

[ronin]

That makes sense. I need a spacer to clear the cover also so it solve two problems. Good idea Ding.

[FL-AK]

Funny, I have a black Promag and it works great in my WASR

Maybe the different material flexes different from the clear or something....or maybe their QC just sucks a lot

[ronin]

Those Promags all work great in my Romys so I don't know what the issue is. I'm going to look closer at a military mag loaded in the AMMS vs. a Promag. It's got to be something unique to the mag when used in that rifle.