Galil back from ORF

I got me Galil back from Todd at ORF that was sent to him to fix. Great service, good work as the fine functions excellant now, thanks Todd.

Guys,
I am not posting much over here with GP, just causes issues. We will get the tutorial done soon, promise, so mistakes like in Jerods build will not happen. Jerod, glad your happy!

Todd@ORF

any news on tutorial

BigAl,
No, I am sorry, its not done yet. Most of all pics are done, but to try and type directions on whats going on in the process is holding me up. Soon.

Todd@ORF

Guys,
I am not posting much over here with GP, just causes issues. We will get the tutorial done soon, promise, so mistakes like in Jerods build will not happen. Jerod, glad your happy!

Todd@ORF

Gotta find a board where I am not around to call you on your constant lies, and your dangerous and defective products? Or a board that will suck up to advertisers and delete any posts about the huge number of people with the same dangerous defects in their ORF receivers?

Shame on you Todd. I really hope your dangerously defective galil receivers don't get anyone seriously injured or killed.

I got me Galil back from Todd at ORF that was sent to him to fix. Great service, good work as the fine functions excellant now, thanks Todd.

After 100 rounds or so check your headspace.

This is getting very old, nobody can post anything on this site, without GP having to put his negative input in. We are hear to get advise from others who have more knowledge than others. I am sure GP does good work as does ORF. I am sure I am not the only one who believes this.

So those who have dangerous and defective ORF receivers should just STFU? And when Todd Grove constantly lies about the nature of his dangerously defective products, those who know better should just STFU?

ORF does not "do good work". He produces a fundamentally defective product that he KNOWS is defective - and through lies and subterfuge continues to sell them. Customers then spend hundreds of more dollars on parts kits, US parts, and work, ending up with a thousand plus dollar boat anchor that could be unsafe to shoot.

Aside from the obvious defects of machining on the receiver (bolt carrier doesn't fit, bolt doesn't contact) there is the sneaky issue of his defective heat treatment that will cause your headspace to grow until the gun is no longer safe to shoot. AND IT CANNOT BE REPAIRED without some really tricky tig welding, annealing, and re-heat treating, rapidly exceeding the cost of the original receiver.

So what part is getting old for you? Do "Danger High Voltage" signs bore you after a while? Should we remove them from your view?

I consider it my duty to alert people to these dangerous defects. Hopefully I can reduce the number of peole calling for me to fix their guns when all of a sudden they stop working because the locking shoulders have mushroomed and headspace is now an easy close on a field gauge.

I hugely appreciate GP's expertise, input and honesty on this issue, as well as the integrity of the akfiles to post all sides of this topic. If I knew/believed a product was defective/dangerous I too would feel obligated to warn others. GP isn't posting this info for jollies, he is helping all of us build and shoot safely. I hope he continues as a watchdog/consumer advocate, and I wish Todd/ORF could provide better info on his receivers. I am waiting for this to shake out a little more before I start building my Galil AR and ARM with the ORF receivers I have.

Like I said in the thread on Galils concerning my ORF Galil, then in the VZ-58 thread about quality control, since the idiots that continue to buy abortions from ORF will not listen to many knowledgable people including well known experts like ARS's Mark Graham, (aka "Gunplummah"),...then hear it from the horse's mouth, hear it from Mr. Grove's own mouth.......

(Or as Todd Bailey calls him,...."The Jack_ _ _")

On AK FORUMS,...Trouble with the VZ-58 receivers! (http://www.krinkfreak.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=57822&sid=455fc05e82c6c88c937c35b4a4803f8c)

On AK FORUMS,...I'll be AWAY for TWO WEEKS and NOT on the BOARDS! (gettin' his shit fixed?) (http://www.krinkfreak.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=58538&sid=455fc05e82c6c88c937c35b4a4803f8c)

You know, Todd Bailey's relationship with Mr. Grove is becoming an interesting subject. You know, even a broken clock is right two times every day.

When will the customers wake up?

Inquiring minds want to know.

well known experts like ARS's Mark Graham, (aka "Gunplummah"),...then hear it from the horse's mouth, ,

well known expert? at what refinishing? hey i can use a spray gun too! I had never once heard of Mark, ARS, or Gunplumber till i came hear and read about all his whining and crying. and to be honest i kinda consider him a TROLL. he made his point years ago, yes early receivers were most likely fucked up. but to constantly follow todd around on this site and whine and cry about his product is fucking pathetic. you want to be professional? try acting like it. but dude you sound like a broken record.

I hugely appreciate GP's expertise, input and honesty on this issue.

one has to remember that ORF is also ARS's competition. how much honesty and integrity really exists when money is invovled? mula brings out the best of ppl and so does the internet!

Competitor? At what? I don't sell dangerous out of spec garbage receivers. I need him to make a quality receiver so I can make my money building on it - But Todd has made it clear he has no intention of doing so and will continue to put out the same dangerously defective crap today as he did years ago. He knows its defective and he'll sell it to you anyway.

Its people like you who accept Todd's constant lies, misdirections, excuses and dangerously defective products that are the real problem. "Oh, all the other ones were defective junk, but he said these are the "new" ones . . .. I know he lies all the time, but I want something cheap so bad that I will convince myself that just this one time Todd is telling the truth . . .. "

fucking pathetic.




You are so right Mr. Krinker!

This coverup on other boards with regards to ORF junk is pathetic. Brown-nosed butt-boys in action! As for Mark Graham, competition is not an issue here. He is not in the same league as ORF. You are fishing in a dry hole.

Mark Graham of ARS was ....The Small Arms Review's Class II Gunsmith of the Year for 2007.

Where are Mr. Grove's industry recognitions?

The only time ORF deserves 1st Place for anything is in some Whine and Cheese competition, because Mr. Grove's receivers are softer than Velveeta and his whine,...well, it is a World Class WHINE!

As Bug's would say,..."Sheesh, what a maroon!"

Let me add ,

I bought a ORF 21 belt fed a few years ago, 6k , it never ran sent it back twice on my dime he did not even touch the thing set it back to me . Sold it for almost parts.


I sent a SGMB Bolt back to Len Savage for repair, UPS lost it, Gunplumber had one laying around ,did not even know me, sold it to me for the price of shipping
10$.


So - ORF sold me total junk, then bullshited me wasting more of my money sending back.
.

ARS - thanks for saving me a lot of $.

Let me add ,

I bought a ORF 21 belt fed a few years ago, 6k , it never ran sent it back twice on my dime he did not even touch the thing set it back to me . Sold it for almost parts.


I sent a SGMB Bolt back to Len Savage for repair, UPS lost it, Gunplumber had one laying around ,did not even know me, sold it to me for the price of shipping
10$.


So - ORF sold me total junk, then bullshited me wasting more of my money sending back.
.

ARS - thanks for saving me a lot of $.


Where are the ORF cheerleaders?

Where are the ORF cheerleaders?


"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

-- Matthew 7:6

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."


-- Matthew 7:6



From my SHOOTERS BIBLE.........


"If ye must maketh only junk firearms while spinning lies and deceit and ye expecteth the high priests in your employ to defend your sins, then you must peddle your wares only where the ignorant and unclean dwell lest ye be judged a false prophet and ye will be called out by those that know what the fucketh they speak of."

--Nick F 7:11 and Walmart

Where are the ORF cheerleaders?

why? are the arizona drama queen's cheerleaders getting bored or are they just trying to start shit? i think we all know the answer, huh?

Nick F 7:11 and Walmart[/I]

so your quoting shit from chinamart? nice....

so your quoting shit from chinamart? nice....sad part of this is china can build a good receiver......:uhoh_smal:laugh_sma

sad part of this is china can build a good receiver......:uhoh_smal:laugh_sma


:laugh_sma

ahhahahaahhah

OK, I hear all sides, has there been any incident with the reciever, breaking. I know of others who have thousands of rounds thru their ORF Galil recievers, without a problem.

OK, I hear all sides, has there been any incident with the reciever, breaking. I know of others who have thousands of rounds thru their ORF Galil recievers, without a problem.

What do you mean by 'breaking'...?

We just had a micro-Galil come in to the shop last week (ORF receiver, AZEX build). The gun looked nice.

The owner brought it in because a case had separated in the chamber, which we removed...

The gun swallowed a field gauge...

Both locking lug recesses were severely battered and set-back...

The owner claimed that the gun had 40 rounds through it...

Does that count as 'broken,' or does it have to blow up in pieces...?

Forrest

What do you mean by 'breaking'...?
Both locking lug recesses were severely battered and set-back...

The owner claimed that the gun had 40 rounds through it...
Forrest

IMPOSSIBLE! I made up my observations of soft locking recesses on ORF galil receivers (as well as all the other dimensional defects) just to discredit ORF because I AM JEALOUS!

I got dozens of people across the country to lie and say they too had soft locking recesses causing their guns to get dangerous excess headspace.

I even got an ORF-approved independent third party machine shop to conclude the mushroomed locking surfaces were because of the receiver being too soft.

I did it all just because I am jealous of Todd! So don't go around posting more evidence to support my assertions, because I am very protective of my position as the Jealous AZ Drama Queen - I don't want any competition

I'm going to tear mine down and sell the bits I think.

Now who I wonder , would want the Receiver.

I'm going to tear mine down and sell the bits I think.

Now who I wonder , would want the Receiver.

Sell the receiver on AK-Forums or Arfcom etc... remember there really is no problem with the receiver and if anyone says different on another site ya won't have to try to defend the product as their negative post will be deleted and replaced with a rave review ensuring ya a quike sell
:evil:

I bought one recently, and if UPS ever finds it, i'm interested to see how the rifle turns out. I am also interested to see what ORF does to fix it if there is a problem.

-myers

I bought one recently, and if UPS ever finds it, i'm interested to see how the rifle turns out. I am also interested to see what ORF does to fix it if there is a problem.

-myers

Make a claim with UPS, get your money back, and consider yourself lucky you never got the receiver. Then, the next time we have breakfast, you can buy.

Make a claim with UPS, get your money back, and consider yourself lucky you never got the receiver. Then, the next time we have breakfast, you can buy.

Why should have to make a claim with UPS? Its the shipper's job.

Why should have to make a claim with UPS? Its the shipper's job.

You are right.

UPS only knows the shipper and who was designated by the shipper to receive the shipment at this point. FAL GRUNT who technically owns the receiver has no way to process a claim with UPS. He may be the owner of the receiver but he has not taken posession of it and will not until the tranfer is made by the receiving FFL.

If the shipper had FAL GRUNT's best interest at heart the shipper could use UPS's Shipment Intercept to have the package returned to the sender once it is located in their system. If the package is never located then the shipper can file a claim.

They could go ahead and send FAL GRUNT's FFL another receiver right now so the customer is taken care of in this transaction.

So don't go around posting more evidence to support my assertions, because I am very protective of my position as the Jealous AZ Drama Queen

I think it is a safe bet you will retain that position lifelong. ;)

I'm still curious if there ARE any good ORF Galil receivers and if so, how to tell the good from the junk?
I guess that's classified info.

I'm still curious if there ARE any good ORF Galil receivers and if so, how to tell the good from the junk?



It is easy to tell the good ones from the junk. The good ones have not been made yet.

Hey GP. Why don't you start making Recievers? You claim that everyone else makes an inferior product. Try your hand at making a complete firearm and not just bending Flats and piecing together AK's. You Might find out it's a LITTLE harder than slapping together Overpriced AK's.

Hey GP. Why don't you start making Recievers? You claim that everyone else makes an inferior product. Try your hand at making a complete firearm and not just bending Flats and piecing together AK's. You Might find out it's a LITTLE harder than slapping together Overpriced AK's.

Ahhh grasshopper. Your ignorance knows no bounds . .. .

I don't make milk. Can I not tell if it is sour? I do not claim that "everyone" makes an inferior product. I do observe that ORF makes a dangerously out of spec product. Are you really too stupid to differentiate between "ORF" and "everyone" or are you deliberately lying?

I do not bend flats. I use the excellent products of Dan Coonan. GONG! Not doing too well today are you?

Hard? Hard is immaterial. The only thing not hard about an ORF galil receiver is the heat treatment - which should be. Only results matter. And ORF makes a defective product and sells it anyway. How "hard" it is makes not one bit of difference to me.

So dangerous, out-of-spec junk is ok if making a quality product is too hard?

Its low quality standards such as you are willing to accept that allows con-artists like Todd Grove to continue selling their dangerous out-of-spec junk.

What is the sound of one case rupturing?

Ahhh grasshopper. Your ignorance knows no bounds . .. .

I don't make milk. Can I not tell if it is sour? I do not claim that "everyone" makes an inferior product. I do observe that ORF makes a dangerously out of spec product. Are you really too stupid to differentiate between "ORF" and "everyone" or are you deliberately lying?

I do not bend flats. I use the excellent products of Dan Coonan. GONG! Not doing too well today are you?

Hard? Hard is immaterial. The only thing not hard about an ORF galil receiver is the heat treatment - which should be. Only results matter. And ORF makes a defective product and sells it anyway. How "hard" it is makes not one bit of difference to me.

So dangerous, out-of-spec junk is ok if making a quality product is too hard?

Its low quality standards such as you are willing to accept that allows con-artists like Todd Grove to continue selling their dangerous out-of-spec junk.

What is the sound of one case rupturing?

So, instead of MAKING the parts, you use OTHER'S parts and put them together. Gunplumber and AZR..>the Orange County Choppers of Firearms.

Show me ONE case of a ORF product failing in a kB.

I'll wait.

So, instead of MAKING the parts, you use OTHER'S parts and put them together.

Yes. (Duh!)

Gunplumber and AZR..>the Orange County Choppers of Firearms.

Don't know what that means.

Show me ONE case of a ORF product failing in a kB.

fortunately, the excess headspace caused by the dangerous, defective receivers causes the guns to stop working before they blow up. Hopefully, shooters know when they get blown primers to stop shooting.

So - what is your angle? That we shouldn't notice the dangerously defective receivers until AFTER someone dies? Or that all the people with the same problems I observed are just conspiring against poor Todd?

I don't understand - what is your position? That there is no problem and we're all making it up? Or that it is a problem, but don't worry about it until someone gets killed?

We're waiting .. . .

So, instead of MAKING the parts, you use OTHER'S parts and put them together.

Yes. (Duh!)

Gunplumber and AZR..>the Orange County Choppers of Firearms.

Don't know what that means.

Show me ONE case of a ORF product failing in a kB.

fortunately, the excess headspace caused by the dangerous, defective receivers causes the guns to stop working before they blow up. Hopefully, shooters know when they get blown primers to stop shooting.

So - what is your angle? That we shouldn't notice the dangerously defective receivers until AFTER someone dies? Or that all the people with the same problems I observed are just conspiring against poor Todd?

I don't understand - what is your position? That there is no problem and we're all making it up? Or that it is a problem, but don't worry about it until someone gets killed?

We're waiting .. . .

So, you freely admit you are an ASSEMBLER, and not a MANUFACTURER. What a shock.

Again, show me ONE kB attrubited to ANY ORF product.

And in response to the OCC comment....You take parts someone else makes, assemble them into a product, and charge 2X the cost of the items.

Case in point, the Romy's you were selling last year for 550-650+

Gee StoryDude1, have you ever bought... well.. anything?

Guess what... it is made out of parts... made by someone else, assembled by someone else, for usually a LOT more than 2x the value of the parts.

Ever bought a car? Like... maybe a ford.. chevy, toyota, dodge, chrysler, honda.... they ALL buy parts... made by SOMEONE ELSE.. and ASSEMBLE THEM. Then they mark the price up ALOT.

When I am at work making Tool and Die parts. The steel I use is inexspensive... there might be $100 (roughly) in steel in a finished die. So, the $20,000 that customers pay for them is not about the steel... its about the assembly.

So... your case in point was what?

-myers

Gee StoryDude1, have you ever bought... well.. anything?

Guess what... it is made out of parts... made by someone else, assembled by someone else, for usually a LOT more than 2x the value of the parts.

Ever bought a car? Like... maybe a ford.. chevy, toyota, dodge, chrysler, honda.... they ALL buy parts... made by SOMEONE ELSE.. and ASSEMBLE THEM. Then they mark the price up ALOT.

When I am at work making Tool and Die parts. The steel I use is inexspensive... there might be $100 (roughly) in steel in a finished die. So, the $20,000 that customers pay for them is not about the steel... its about the assembly.

So... your case in point was what?

-myers

My case in point was thus:

The ONLY "Problems" associated to a ORF rec. are of HIS own making. Seems that literally THOUSANDS of ORF rec. have been made into Firearms. But yet the ONLY person bitching about them is................Gunplumber.

And there is a LARGE difference between taking a raw block of steel and CREATING a die from nothing and ASSEMBLING a collection of Firearms parts.

I, for one, would WANT to pay thousands to have a die made(and have BTW) because that Die will MAKE thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Stampings...ALL of which will show any flaws in the Creation of the Die.

ORF sells Rec. to Century. If they were "Defective" as GP offers, don't you think they would have found another Distributor by now? Or is Century in the business of leaving themselves open to lawsuits due to "Defective" receivers?






Makes one think don't it? I mean, if these things are as "Dangerous" as GP says, wouldn't Century find another receiver to use?


Guess it's just fashionable to jump on a person offering a service to the Firearms industry when one cannot make the items themselves.

Storydude, do you have anything to contribute that actually has anything to do with the thread topic or are you going to simply Troll Gunplumber to see if you can join ORF? YOU need to drop your entire attack tactic regarding GPs assembling AKs (which has zero to do with this thread topic) as gee there are alot of folks here who assemble AKs hence the name "AK Files" none of us are manufacturers either

HOWEVER there has been several members who have provided pictures and other testimoni regarding defective ORF GALIL recievers and that would be the topic of this thread which you need to stick to rather than venturing off on a personal attack simply cause someone does not care for ORF recievers.......

consider this the only warning ya will be recieving the next will be the door slamming behind you should ya deviate in this thread from its topic, if ya have actual FACTS to contribute then feel free.....


And just for the record since GP has admitting to "snitching" on other boards to mods... nope he didn't here I simply could not figure out WHY the thread was being twisted from a Discussion about ORF Galil recievers into a debate about GP being an AK assembler........ the shit pile stops here, if ya wanna beat up on GP then there is already a thread in Dumping brass ya can feel free to join into. Any personal attacks which are totally and completely irrelevant to the thread topic up here will guaranteed get ya gone from AK Files the example above will not be tolerated t all

Storydude, do you have anything to contribute that actually has anything to do with the thread topic or are you going to simply Troll Gunplumber to see if you can join ORF? YOU need to drop your entire attack tactic regarding GPs assembling AKs (which has zero to do with this thread topic) as gee there are alot of folks here who assemble AKs hence the name "AK Files" none of us are manufacturers either

HOWEVER there has been several members who have provided pictures and other testimoni regarding defective ORF GALIL recievers and that would be the topic of this thread which you need to stick to rather than venturing off on a personal attack simply cause someone does not care for ORF recievers.......

consider this the only warning ya will be recieving the next will be the door slamming behind you should ya deviate in this thread from its topic, if ya have actual FACTS to contribute then feel free.....


And just for the record since GP has admitting to "snitching" on other boards to mods... nope he didn't here I simply could not figure out WHY the thread was being twisted from a Discussion about ORF Galil recievers into a debate about GP being an AK assembler........ the shit pile stops here, if ya wanna beat up on GP then there is already a thread in Dumping brass ya can feel free to join into. Any personal attacks which are totally and completely irrelevant to the thread topic up here will guaranteed get ya gone from AK Files the example above will not be tolerated t all

DStorm, I appreciate your input and respect your stance. Glad to see you finally made mod BTW. BUT, ORF has ALREADY said he will replace/repair ANY rec. found to be defective, that was BUILT into a firearm by ORF. Which is Fair. NO RECEIVER can be considered 100% ready to use, EVEN if classed as such. Hell, even a NDS 3 needs some tweaking. Differences in Tolerances, years made, individual parts and Parts Stackup all contribute to a firearm needing some tweaking.

What I see is one or 20 receivers that MIGHT have passed through QC and reaching the wild and a one man vendetta against a company. Even accepting a 1% failure rate(BTW, GLock holds a 5.3% failure on .40 and .45 series of pistols) ORF has turned out MANY more good receivers than Bad.

By your own admission, Personal attacks are not tolerated, But I see GP doing nothing but since his 3rd post against Todd. We both know GP is a pompous ass, but bashing an entire company because of one run of bad product is, imho, not warranted.

Todd has decided not to deal with ARS for his own reasons that were made clear in this thread, but does that give ARS the right to badmouth the man's entire business at every chance he gets?

"BUT, ORF has ALREADY said he will replace/repair ANY rec. found to be defective,that was BUILT into a firearm by ORF"

......What about the ones that were not "built" by ORF. There has been a noticable silence from ORF on that issue.

Well, I wish I could remember where I read it, but Todd Grove himself has said on one of the forums that he is no longer making Galil receivers, and stated that Century has moved to cast receivers for the next batch of Galils. If ORF receivers are not good enough for Century, which has a doubtful rep for build quality to begin with, what does that say about the ORF Galil receiver? What does it mean that the ORF Galil receivers are on sale for about 1/3 off when they are (at least for now) the only game in town? I don't see NodakSpud or DSA receivers on sale because there is always a demand for a high quality, well respected product. Storydude1, I think you have answered your own question, Century HAS moved on to a better product. I have also noticed the calmest, most logical one posting on this subject,even when baited, has been GP, while the ones ranting and raving have been calling him the "drama queen". I again give a huge thanks to the akfiles, the moderators and GP for handling this issue about the ORF Galil receivers honestly. I am a noob to all this, and I don't have the time, money, or extra digits, eyeballs, and facial bits to waste on a product that does indeed seem to be dangerous and poorly made.

"BUT, ORF has ALREADY said he will replace/repair ANY rec. found to be defective,that was BUILT into a firearm by ORF"

......What about the ones that were not "built" by ORF. There has been a noticable silence from ORF on that issue.


Can you blame him?


You go to Autozone and buy a part for your car. You then take that part to Monroe to have it installed. The part fails. Who do you bring the car back to to be repaired? Autozone? Or the person that INSTALLED the part?

EDIT: IF the headspacing was set properly, and the locking lugs ground properly by the FINAL ASSEMBLER, the "Orf Gaili Problem" goes away.

The problem comes in when someone does not properly assemble the rifle, but sends one out anyway. Seems that there are 5 to ten builders making Gaili's on ORF receivers.....Only one to document the "problem" is Gunbumbler. And after talking to him about an AK build, I can see why ARS would not want to deal with him. Arrogance, superiority complex and God-like tendencies do not mix in Business.

I built Galils (R4/R5s) some years ago in a another land. Not once did locking lugs require grinding during assembly.

As stated previously, this is not exactly a complex subject: you screw a barrel into a Receiver the correct amount, (using measurement and H.S. guages).
I own one ORF Receiver. It was assembled correctly. It functioned flawlessly and was as accurate as a Galil can be.

The right front locking recess, on the Receiver Rail Mushroomed back, causing loss of Headspace .
This was caused by ME not Grinding the Receiver ? ? ?
This doesn't seem to happen with AKs rolled from sheet steel (less rigid, more potential dimensional variation) . AK trunions seem to resist the "Magic ORF" Mushroom quite well.

Pull thru, its pointless. The guy is just too stupid to comprehend things like the industrial revolution. Those RL4s and RL5s we screwed around with back in the day were awesome. But then Lyttleton Engineering Werks didn't require the end user to grind factory correct parts to fit a defective receiver. That in the industry seems to be the sole territory of Todd at ORF.

OK It's likely that Storydude1 is a hired mouth piece. Why else would he go to the lengths he has with the available evidence. My question is why spend the money on representation at X dollars an hour and not just take the stuff back to fix it. Todd has some VC to play with, eat some of it, make it right and move on. It is the right thing to do.

Todd could double the price of the receivers, and if it was a quality price, would still have brisk sales. I'd have no problem paying $500-$600 for a perfect product. But its not worth $50 as dangerous out-of-spec crap right now.

Pull thru, its pointless. The guy is just too stupid to comprehend things like the industrial revolution. Those RL4s and RL5s we screwed around with back in the day were awesome. But then Lyttleton Engineering Werks didn't require the end user to grind factory correct parts to fit a defective receiver. That in the industry seems to be the sole territory of Todd at ORF.
Keep up the personal attacks GP.

Please.

Nothing like a VENDOR badmouthing members and other VENDORS is there?

You are stupid! My being a vendor doesn't make you smart. If I could do that, I'd package it up and sell it.

I have thoroughly documented the fundamental and dangerous defects in the ORF receiver. What I do for a living doesn't make those dangerous defects magically disappear.

What is so entertaining about you, grasshopper, is that you can't refute the thoroughly documented observations of myself and others, so you attempt to discredit me.

It really is funny. Thank you for bringing a little humor to what is turning into a very hot (114 F) day at work. Next year you'll be a Sophomore in High School? Check and see if they offer a logic class. It might save you some humiliation.

You are stupid! My being a vendor doesn't make you smart. If I could do that, I'd package it up and sell it.

I have thoroughly documented the fundamental and dangerous defects in the ORF receiver. What I do for a living doesn't make those dangerous defects magically disappear.

What is so entertaining about you, grasshopper, is that you can't refute the thoroughly documented observations of myself and others, so you attempt to discredit me.

It really is funny. Thank you for bringing a little humor to what is turning into a very hot (114 F) day at work. Next year you'll be a Sophomore in High School? Check and see if they offer a logic class. It might save you some humiliation.
You have documented your OPINION on the ORF recievers. No PROOF other than your rantings has been offered in your defense.
Not ONE piece of paper from a 3rd party lab proving RC scale hardness, no DOCUMENTED case of Failure, nothing but your WORD...which ain;t worth much it seems.

Even your page has nothing but XXX in front of pictures, as if they tell the whole story.

I find it funny that ORF is banned for defending his product and you continue to be allowed to post after bashing his product in every thread you can find on the topic.



Did you put as much effort into bashing Hesse/Vulcan when you were using his receivers?

"Not ONE piece of paper from a 3rd party lab proving RC scale hardness"


That's an interesting viewpoint. Suggesting an "Assembler" gets Lab. reports to back up his observations.


How about the Manufacturer of the component supplying some definitive specs. and test reports on Heat Treatment and Hardness.

Better still, maybe; would be Rockwell indentations in the Receivers,----may be Hard, --may be soft,---but at least you could kid yourself , they were at least trying.

Glad you're happy with your ORF Galil / Receiver Storydude1.
So tell us , how many ORF Galil receivers have you built on so far ?

I think the root issue at hand is, if there is a problem and it's identified, then you stop the line and correct it before it becomes a large problem and I'm not sure if that's the case this time. There have been more than a few owners/builders that have had the headspace change (read grow) and as far as uneven lug recesses go, it's easier not to remove excessive amounts of material from one side than to put it back after the fact. I feel lapping the lugs is pretty much normal, having to grind them is a bit extreme.
Todd was going to post a tutorial on his site on the build process, but last time I checked it has not been done. If it's a problem with the build process, the tutorial should point out where some of us have gone wrong. FWIW, I hate to see someone put the time and effort into a project like manufacturing these receivers and come out on the loosing end due to missing a few details, even if it's only on some of the receivers that were produced. Once your reputation is damaged, it's hard to overcome no matter what you do to fix it, but not doing anything is probably the worst choice of all.

Storydude, do you have anything to contribute that actually has anything to do with the thread topic or are you going to simply Troll Gunplumber to see if you can join ORF? YOU need to drop your entire attack tactic regarding GPs assembling AKs (which has zero to do with this thread topic)

that would be the topic of this thread which you need to stick to rather than venturing off on a personal attack simply cause someone does not care for ORF recievers.......



humm, lets back up here dude. the TOPIC of this thread was mjlynch71 sending a rifle to orf and him stating he had great service and the rifle works great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

then gunplumber shits on his post ragging on orf. so tell me PLEASE, WHO WENT OFF TOPIC? ild say it was gunplumber. the post was about orf service and had nothing to do with the quality of orf receivers that gunplumber cant stop whining about.

and for you to now come here and bitch about someone being off topic and trolling the biggest troll on the site is well, bullshit!



consider this the only warning ya will be recieving the next will be the door slamming behind you should ya deviate in this thread from its topic,

if this is your logic, why hasnt gunplubmer been kicked for being off topic? the TOPIC of this thread was mjlynch71 sending a rifle to orf and him stating he had great service and the rifle works great! so ild love to here why gunplumber can go off topic ( and not get banned ) but another guy cant?

"Not ONE piece of paper from a 3rd party lab proving RC scale hardness"


That's an interesting viewpoint. Suggesting an "Assembler" gets Lab. reports to back up his observations.


How about the Manufacturer of the component supplying some definitive specs. and test reports on Heat Treatment and Hardness.

Better still, maybe; would be Rockwell indentations in the Receivers,----may be Hard, --may be soft,---but at least you could kid yourself , they were at least trying.

Glad you're happy with your ORF Galil / Receiver Storydude1.
So tell us , how many ORF Galil receivers have you built on so far ?
Have you read this thread? ARS claims to HAVE said Information from an Independent Lab PROVING RC hardness on a ORF rec. ORF POSTED a SCANNED document showing the treating lab, and RC scale.

All needed for Gunplumber to end this discussion is to produce PROOF, INDEPENDENT 3RD PARTY PROOF of Defects found in ORF receivers.


But he won't, and he'll continue down the road of SPOBI and "His worh is Gospel"


EDIT: And IF the problem with the ORF rec. IS the heat-treating, Or Supposed Lack thereof, HOW is that ORF's Problem? I can understand ORF being the end seller, but if there was a problem with heat-treat, HOW can ORF control something done OUTSIDE his shop? NoDak does NOT do Heat-treating in-house, Olympic does NOT do heat treat in-house, OOW does NOT do heat treating in house.......

Most companies send components out for heat treat, some of the larger organisations have their own.

Regarding accountability : As an example, if you engaged a custom machine shop to produce some gearing for you, (maybe for a custom built transmission), the machine shop would send out the parts for Heat Treat.
If your new transmission failed, because of "mushy" soft gearing, the part goes back to the Machine Shop. -----They take it up with the heat treat. facility.
It was their responsibilty to ensure the parts are correctly treated.

As for the scanned paper work : That doesn't show up as a Rockwell indentation on a piece of steel.
As 6500rpm has mentioned, there are more than a few owners with similar issues.

Storydude,

can you link me to this post where ORF posted heat treat information? I can't find it?

Im trying to find out because I got my Galil in and will be working to correct its little issue.

There :) happy, now someone other than Gunplumber has an issue with an ORF Galil...

Shall I post pictures? Shall I document it until it reaches the point where headspace is excessive?

Or... if I can find out what type of metal was ACTUALLY used, what the heat treat was, and how it was done, I could then CORRECT the receiver to the form it SHOULD have been before leaving ORF.

-myers

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27159&page=5&pp=35

About 1/4 the way down. A Rec. sitting on a ROCKWELL TESTER, showing RC scales.

Guess that's not enough info?

How about a 3rd party lab?
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31217

Anybody else think storychick is Oswald?

Seems obvious....

Anybody else think storychick is Oswald?

Seems obvious....
Damn Doc. Thought it was me being Paranoid !
Yep, with you on that one.

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27159&page=5&pp=35

About 1/4 the way down. A Rec. sitting on a ROCKWELL TESTER, showing RC scales.

Guess that's not enough info?

How about a 3rd party lab?
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31217

Oh, you mean the ones with the testing equipment sitting on a wood bench.

No wonder Century dumped him.

I have been in machine manufacturing all of my adult life and I have used hardness testing equipment of all types. The testing equipment must be secured to a solid foundation, and NOT on a cheap pallet style wood work bench.

This is a farce.

Todd Grove has no idea what he is doing and his ignorant brown-hole licking butt-boys quote it,...and swear to it.

This discussion is a waste of time.

Oh, you mean the ones with the testing equipment sitting on a wood bench.

No wonder Century dumped him.

I have been in machine manufacturing all of my adult life and I have used hardness testing equipment of all types. The testing equipment must be secured to a solid foundation, and NOT on a cheap pallet style wood work bench.

This is a farce.

Todd Grove has no idea what he is doing and his ignorant brown-hole licking butt-boys quote it,...and swear to it.

This discussion is a waste of time.
An RC testing machine of the type he is using is nothing more than a calibrated ARBOR PRESS.

The thing would give the same readings if it was suspended in mid air, hovering by magic, or screwed into a 30 ton granite surface plate on a vibration damped table, sitting on a 1000 ton lead block.

So, tell me, what will change in the readings by being mounted on a wood bench?

I'll wait.


Oh noes...this one is mounted on wood..
http://www.uwplatt.edu/~mirth/me3040wilson.htm
http://www.uwplatt.edu/~mirth/WilsonInstructions_files/image002.jpg
So are these...
http://www.loeffelsteel.com/TestingLab.aspx
http://www.loeffelsteel.com/Pics/RockwellMachines.jpg
Oh, My, God. S&S machine has them sitting on a KITCHEN CABINET Oh noes..
http://www.sandsmachine.com/s_part140.jpg
www.sandsmachine.com


Even the Virginia Distribution center has one mounted on a standard Laminate Countertop.
http://dps.dgs.virginia.gov/dps/VDC/Docs/Lab/VDC_QA_Equipment.htm
http://dps.dgs.virginia.gov/dps/VDC/Docs/Lab/RockwellHardnessTesterComp.JPG

So, the base it's mounted on has WHAT to do with this discussion?

:owned:

All very interesting.


WHERE ARE THE INDENTATIONS IN THE ORF RECEIVERS PROVING THEY HAVE BEEN TESTED ? ? ?

So you disagree with the independent third party testing of the receiver that concluded the mushrooming (physically visible) of the receiver was caused by the metal being soft?

Please explain Oswald, oops, I mean Storydude, what other causes for metal deforming are possible, other than being "soft".

So you disagree with the independent third party testing of the receiver that concluded the mushrooming (physically visible) of the receiver was caused by the metal being soft?

Please explain Oswald, oops, I mean Storydude, what other causes for metal deforming are possible, other than being "soft".
Post up your "Independent 3rd party" report then.

Should not be hard for the God of Gunsmithing.

If you have the PROOF, and not your WORD, which is worth nothing BTW, Post it up and end this thread.

I'm SURE that there was a final report issued by the Lab. Post it up.

Prove me wrong. Post it up.

Prove to EVERYONE that your word is Gospel and is Accurate. Post the reports. Unless you are talking out of your ass, and cannot PROVE that the ORF Gaili was even TESTED by a 3rd party. Post it up.

All very interesting.


WHERE ARE THE INDENTATIONS IN THE ORF RECEIVERS PROVING THEY HAVE BEEN TESTED ? ? ?
Yep, you got owned, and now try and defer again. Just like Gunplumber.

EDIT: Again, what would change in the RC readings by being mounted on a wood bench?

I don't know pullthru - where are the indentations from the heat treat test?

I don't know pullthru - where are the indentations from the heat treat test?
I don't know Gunplumber, where is the report from the 3rd party lab?

Go read the other thread. Yeah - I know - educating yourself before opening your mouth is soooooo much harder than just putting your foot in your mouth.

Go read the other thread. Yeah - I know - educating yourself before opening your mouth is soooooo much harder than just putting your foot in your mouth.
Read as:
I cannot provide any proof other than my MASSIVE Ego.


Post up the Lab report.

That simple.

You CLAIM to have it, as proof. Post it.

Mark,

I looked through the "other" thread and could not find your 3rd party testing. I would like to see it for information sake. I am tempted to test my receiver at work on Monday, but I don't really want to have to clean up the dimples.

I have the ORF receiever that I mentioned before, the right lug is certainly starting to peen. I will continue shooting it, watching head space, and report as I go. Should head space become a problem, I have some good ideas as to how to fix it from my fellow co-workers.

-myers

the right lug is certainly starting to peen.



How can that be? Did I pay you to say that?


Report: "After several machinists looked at the wear around the locking recess area there general consensus was that the receiver was too soft in this area allowing the premature wear."

To which Todd Responded "I think its fair to say an opinion is just that."

Mine had absolutely no evidence of being Rockwell tested when received from ORF.

:) well... if you did I haven't seen that check YET!

Mark, I was wondering if you actually had a report or something issued by the 3rd party. You don't have to post it on the board if you would prefer, but if possible I would like to take a look at it.

Pullthru, my receiver shows no evidence of being tested either.

-myers

Todd Sold two defective receivers to one of my customers. When the headspace grew and the locking recesses mushroomed, Todd tried to say the mushroomed metal was from "improper assembly". The machine shop (approved by Todd) that tested the customer's receivers e-mailed the results to my customer, who forwarded them to Todd and me. The results matched my observations, and that of dozens of other unhappy ORF customers.

Todd Sold two defective receivers to one of my customers. When the headspace grew and the locking recesses mushroomed, Todd tried to say the mushroomed metal was from "improper assembly". The machine shop (approved by Todd) that tested the customer's receivers e-mailed the results to my customer, who forwarded them to Todd and me. The results matched my observations, and that of dozens of other unhappy ORF customers.
Then you should be able to produce those reports Verbatim.

Unless said machine shop did NOT test them for Rc hardness, but instead made a baseless OBSERVATION not backed up by TESTING.

Every time iI send an item out for Testing, I get a written report back...not an Email. If I received ONLY an email, I can assure you that would be the last test that company did for me.

My Remedy, ----Call it a Tutorial if you like ! !

B.F.H. not shown.

Pull-Thru - are you saying you beat the locking surfaces of your ORF-made receiver with a punch to displace the soft metal back to where it was before firing?

In your 30 years working in manufacturing for the automotive and firearms industries, have you ever seen such thing on a gun? You were the POL rep for Lyttleton Engineering Werks South Africa Weren't you? Did you see anything like this in their galil manufacturing plant?

Post reports. All other words coming from your fingers are noise.

Post it up.

I'd think if you had it, you'd LOVE to own me off the files by doing that.


but hard to present proof that you don't have.....

404 owned not found.

And I'd keep this on topic. Dstorm will kick you out of it.

Pull-Thru - are you saying you beat the locking surfaces of your ORF-made receiver with a punch to displace the soft metal back to where it was before firing?

In your 30 years working in manufacturing for the automotive and firearms industries, have you ever seen such thing on a gun? You were the POL rep for Lyttleton Engineering Werks South Africa Weren't you? Did you see anything like this in their galil manufacturing plant?Actually, I did flatten the Magic Mushroom on one occasion in attempt to restore lost Headspace. Can't keep doing that as it will weaken the steel. After some more rounds started swelling back again.
There is one sure way to solve this, surprised Mr Todd has not already suggested it.--------------Grind off the bolt lugs and leave that poor, sweet, defenceless cute little Receiver locking shoulder to just sit there and pose.

Yes , I had a business relationship with L.E.W. and no, Never, saw anything like that.
I dealt with FN in Belgium. But all that is Ancient history and inconsequential.

Fact remains, people have had problem and it has not been Professionally addressed by the Manufacturer.

So be it. Just don't buy from that outfit again. AKs are better anyway .

Still no actual report.....

Here is my question: What has been the failure rate for these receivers, both as far as deformed soft metal, feeding problems, et all? Because no matter how much you jump up & down & sing praise of this product there have been a significant number of problems. I don't seem to recall seeing this many issues with for example, DSArms receivers.
There is obviously a demand for a Galil type rifle, I am left scratching my head why there is no compitition in the manufacturing of receivers for this weapon.

Maybe because other manufactures are afraid that after investing tens of thousands of dollars, the product they sell will be blasted by unfounded claims with so called facts that cannot be produced.

Storydude 1, I really have no intention of getting into a personal piss fight with you. The fact remains that there have been issues with head space changing due to metal problems & a number of feeding issues. I know this because I see the questions & complaints on the boards. So I bring back my question of what has been the failure rate. Simple question. You want to be a cheer leader & urinate with Gunplumber fine, but please don't waste my time or the bandwidth.

Storydude 1, I really have no intention of getting into a personal piss fight with you. The fact remains that there have been issues with head space changing due to metal problems & a number of feeding issues. I know this because I see the questions & complaints on the boards. So I bring back my question of what has been the failure rate. Simple question. You want to be a cheer leader & urinate with Gunplumber fine, but please don't waste my time or the bandwidth.
That is a question that never can be answered in 100% fact. How many Gun kB's go unreported? How many end users have had that firearm? What ammo was fired through it? Was it reloaded hot? Was it a random failure? What was the initial headspacing.........plus a hundred more variables.

I am attempting to discover the same information you are. If I see a 3rd party report defining the sample's Rc scale, I can make a batter informed decision about this debate.

I am attempting to discover the same information you are. If I see a 3rd party report defining the sample's Rc scale, I can make a batter informed decision about this debate.

Actually, I personally don't need the results of hardness testing to see that bolt lug seats are peened back and that the cause of such peening when factory ammo has been fired is the use of an alloy that is inappropriate for the job or is too soft...

But maybe that's just me...

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, and all...

Forrest

Actually, I personally don't need the results of hardness testing to see that bolt lug seats are peened back and that the cause of such peening when factory ammo has been fired is the use of an alloy that is inappropriate for the job or is too soft...

But maybe that's just me...

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, and all...

Forrest
Or improper headspacing on a build.......The same thing an AK will do if you do not headspace the barrel properly.

Knowing the Rc hardness will once and for all prove if it is a Defect...Or improper building practices.

Or improper headspacing on a build.......The same thing an AK will do if you do not headspace the barrel properly.

And, just hypothetically speaking for a moment, if the barreling (headspacing) was done correctly and the locking surfaces ended up peened with the gun out of headspace, what would you say would be the cause...?

Assume also the use of the correct ammunition for a moment.

Hypothetically speaking, for a moment...

Just wondering...

Forrest

And, just hypothetically speaking for a moment, if the barreling (headspacing) was done correctly and the locking surfaces ended up peened with the gun out of headspace, what would you say would be the cause...?

Assume also the use of the correct ammunition for a moment.

Hypothetically speaking, for a moment...

Just wondering...

Forrest
Peening implies movement. If the build is headspaced correctly, there can NOT be Fore-Aft movement between the bolt and the locking lugs.

Moving mass has more kinetic energy than stationary pressure.

Try to dent metal with a hammer without swinging it. VERY hard. Swing that hammer at the same piece of steel, you make a dent.

Something stationary has Kinetic Energy ?


Mathematically, it is defined as one-half the product of a body's mass and the square of its speed.

Apply enough pressure to Steel, with a harder Steel and the softer material will sustain disruption/deformation.

Something stationary has Kinetic Energy ?


Mathematically, it is defined as one-half the product of a body's mass and the square of its speed.

Apply enough pressure to Steel, with a harder Steel and the softer material will sustain disruption/deformation.
Ahhhh the magic "Pressure" equation.

So, lets look at that shall we?

.223/5.56 round has a peak PSI of 53,000 PSI.*Max load with a 77G bullet per IMR's data)
77 GR. SIE HPBT IMR IMR 4064 .224" 2.260" 20.0 2397 42,200 PSI 22.7C 2698 53,000 PSI

4130 steel has a yield of 169,000 PSI at a Rc hardness of 40.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=M434AF


So, how does a 53K PSI impulse deform steel with a rating of 169K psi with pressure alone? Unless you add MOVEMENT to that problem, then PSI expands exponentially. Movement one would find with an improper headspaced build. Now, if GP and ARS would POST the Rc hardness he claims to have through third party testing, we could take those figures and see exactly what the yield strength of that steel ACTUALLY is.

But 3 days later, and still no report.

Yes, of course there is movement, there has to be . It's a device that requires movement for locking/unlocking.
You keep asking for facts, proof etc, and sound a little frustrated that what you seek is not forthcoming.

Where is your proof and fact sheet that everyone who reports and observes flaws in these receivers are either Liars or Incompetants.

Ahhhh the magic "Pressure" equation.

So, lets look at that shall we?

.223/5.56 round has a peak PSI of 53,000 PSI.*Max load with a 77G bullet per IMR's data)
77 GR. SIE HPBT IMR IMR 4064 .224" 2.260" 20.0 2397 42,200 PSI 22.7C 2698 53,000 PSI

4130 steel has a yield of 169,000 PSI at a Rc hardness of 40.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=M434AF


So, how does a 53K PSI impulse deform steel with a rating of 169K psi with pressure alone? Unless you add MOVEMENT to that problem, then PSI expands exponentially. Movement one would find with an improper headspaced build. Now, if GP and ARS would POST the Rc hardness he claims to have through third party testing, we could take those figures and see exactly what the yield strength of that steel ACTUALLY is.

But 3 days later, and still no report.
The Yeild No. 169,000 PSI. is obtalned by Tensile strength Test.----Stetching to break point.
How would this reflect ability to resist surface distruption in a dimensionally challenged environment.

Yes, of course there is movement, there has to be . It's a device that requires movement for locking/unlocking.
You keep asking for facts, proof etc, and sound a little frustrated that what you seek is not forthcoming.

Where is your proof and fact sheet that everyone who reports and observes flaws in these receivers are either Liars or Incompetants.
Unsupported facts are worth the same amount as Horse Manure.

All it would take for this discussion to end is GP posting his report he claims he has.

Until that report is posted, GP's comments hold as much water as a Colander.

And as for Movement, Yes, it requires ROTATIONAL movement...Not Fore-aft movement once locked. If there IS fore-aft movement once locked, guess what. The Firearms were assembled and Headspaced improperly, leading to the Failure GP "reported"

"Unsupported facts are worth the same amount as Horse Manure"


So , you freely admit your assumptions are Horse Manure ?
Guess this "discussion" can finally end.

"Unsupported facts are worth the same amount as Horse Manure"


So , you freely admit your assumptions are Horse Manure ?
Guess this "discussion" can finally end.
I'm not the one claiming to have a 3rd party report that cannot be produced now, Am I?

I'm trying to get a DEFINITIVE answer to the Rc hardness of a ORF receiver....The info GP CLAIMS to have....But cannot post...For whatever reasons.

Good morning. Look what I've missed. Storydouche has taken a time out from "hacking" the Files to grace us with his presence. Oh Joy!

Of course, he has already demonstrated himself to be a liar - so why he even bothers to post after I (and others) so thoroughly discredited him is a mystery. Maybe its one of those "hurt me hurt me" kinky things.

Anyway - In the original thread, it was TODD GROVE from Ohio Rapid Fire who posted the results. The problem was Todd edited out this part:

After several machinists looked at the wear around the locking recess area there general consensus was that the receiver was too soft in this area allowing the premature wear.

He also tried to cover the fact that the tester was unable to get a prick on the locking lug recesses, only on the outside of the receiver.

Unfortunately, the outside of the receiver's hardness isn't helpful if it is the locking recesses that are displacing from being too soft.

Storydouche doesn't have a position to debate. He admits that receivers are defective while simultaneously screaming "libel" when I and dozens of others notice the same thing.

Perhaps if he took a little more time off from the "hacking" of the AK Files (why he would brag about his dishonesty, escapes me) to lay out in a concise manner his position on the defective ORF receiver issue - maybe 100 words or less - then his screed might have some use. As it is, he's so full of contradictions and irrational spew as to leave even the best of us dizzy.

And all you have to do is post the report form the 3rd party lab you "CLAIM" to have.

Not your typed interpretation of the report, the ACTUAL REPORT.

But this Mystery "Report" still cannot be produced.


That's all Gunbumbler needs to do to own me off the files forever....and he cannot even produce that.

That, Speaks VOLUMES about the Validity of said "Report"

Even JEN, the OWNER of this website says this in response to unfounded claims....



2. I am not siding with either Storydude1 or gunplumber on this matter and I do not currently have all the details regarding what started this, but will say that if someone posts something and can not provide proof to it's validity, then well, it is what it is - a statement without proof to back it up. You take it for what it's worth, which without any evidence to support it is not a hell of a lot.


http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=314628&postcount=62

See? There is PROOF presented. It's not too hard to do Gunplumber.

Anyway - In the original thread, it was TODD GROVE from Ohio Rapid Fire who posted the results. The problem was Todd edited out this part:

After several machinists looked at the wear around the locking recess area there general consensus was that the receiver was too soft in this area allowing the premature wear.

Storydouche doesn't have a position to debate. He admits that receivers are defective while simultaneously screaming "libel" when I and dozens of others notice the same thing.Only dozens? I would have to disagree with you on this point GP,I would think it is in the hundreds.The sad part is there are guns out there being shot that are moving out of spec. and the owners may never have even heard there was trouble with these receivers,they will continue to shoot these firearms until they cease to function or worse.STORYDUDE weither GP has paper work or not that shows these receivers hardness is not needed,the trouble is documented by owners all across Amerika on several gun boards.How do you explain that?Is it a national conspiracy funded and controled by GP to attack ORF and Todd Grove? Have you owned or do you own one of the receivers in question?I do not own one BUT I find it hard to believe that all the good folks that have documented the same problem over and over again are lying.As for you saying I support GP that could not be farther from the truth,while I will not go so far as to say I hate GP,I do dislike him and we have had our differances in the past.He supports this board with financial support(many of us do) as well as a wealth of info does not change the fact that many here think he is an ass.You are being veiwed in the same light,maybe even worse.Unless you are Todd Grove I do not see why you think this is your fight to defend.GP assembles firearms for a living and I would suspect that if NODAKSPUD was making a defective receiver his approach would be the same,as a matter of fact GP has documented the trouble with NDS-3 and TAPCO single hook FCG and how to fix it.I do not hear any one from NDS crying foul on this,instead it is posted on NDS web site that there are problems assembling with the NDS-3 and Tapco SH FCG.So are you Todd Grove?Do you work for him?Will everyone that has documented the problems with these receivers be named in this lawsuit you talk about?Is ORF and Todd Grove prepared for the fact that if such lawsuit is filed it could blow up in his face and his receivers be found defective?Is he prepared to be ordered to replace or refund money for defective receivers?I assume if he is the one that threatens lawsuit he has taken these things into consideration if not he should think seriously about the questions above before taking any legal action,td.

One or 500 people's word means NOTHING without Lab TESTING to PROVE the "so called Defect" is not of the Assembler's making by improper headspacing.

Again, if YOU had info that PROVED the Receivers were out of Spec....Wouldn't you POST it as PROOF? And not just falling back on one man's WORD?

Oh, and Paragraphs...Ever heard of them?

Have you read the thread ? I'll help you a bit more - pay particular attention around # 293 & 294.

Thats where Todd acknowledges receipt of the same test results. He e-mailed me about them on 1/24/08.

This is where I pointed out that Todd was lying, by claiming the >40 RC was vindication - without mentioning it was not tested at the locking recesses, which were determined soft.

So - you are defending ORF's dangerously defective receivers by claiming the test results that Todd himself approved and references don't exist?

You really are a silly goose. I guess I'll type this slower so you can follow.

This Todd guy - ok - you are supposed to be on his side (unless you are an agent provacateur ) and, like, fer sure - he totally agrees these tests exist. So, like, to say I'm bogus would be saying he's bogus too and like, that would be bogus . . .

So like, check it out, Holmes, the issue isn't the existence of like, this totally rad e-mail from the testing machine shop, but like, how Todd deliberately misled readers by giving the >40 hardness result, without mentioning it wasn't taken in the critical area which the same guys said was way bogus.

So, like, you dig it now? Hey take hit of this Jamaican red, that ough to help . ..

I posted a Pic a while ago of the Shoulder pushing back.

The comment from Todd Grove at the time, was that I was posting a pic. to create public confusion.
Helpful eh ?

One or 500 people's word means NOTHING without Lab TESTING to PROVE the "so called Defect" is not of the Assembler's making by improper headspacing.

Again, if YOU had info that PROVED the Receivers were out of Spec....Wouldn't you POST it as PROOF? And not just falling back on one man's WORD?

Oh, and Paragraphs...Ever heard of them?You prove yourself once again to be much like GP,you avoid answering questions you cannot answer without proving you have no leg to stand on.In order for you to anwser any questions I posted above you would jeprodize your entire argument.Unless your teaching english class I am not worried about paragraphs,you see this is where your trouble with GP comes into play you both think your perfect and want to be the head drama queen on the files,I suggest you and GP hook up and decide who will be head king and who will be head queen when the drama is over you can let use know if you came out on top or the bottom.td

You prove yourself once again to be much like GP,you avoid answering questions you cannot answer without proving you have no leg to stand on.In order for you to anwser any questions I posted above you would jeprodize your entire argument.Unless your teaching english class I am not worried about paragraphs,you see this is where your trouble with GP comes into play you both think your perfect and want to be the head drama queen on the files,I suggets you and GP hook up and decide who will be head king and who will be head queen when the drama is over you can let use know if you came out on top or the bottom.td
The world is Flat. I can get 1000 people to agree with me.

You claim to have proof it is not...But you cannot present it.

Is the world flat? By those 1000 people's word it is.

Have you read the thread ? I'll help you a bit more - pay particular attention around # 293 & 294.

Thats where Todd acknowledges receipt of the same test results. He e-mailed me about them on 1/24/08.

This is where I pointed out that Todd was lying, by claiming the >40 RC was vindication - without mentioning it was not tested at the locking recesses, which were determined soft.

So - you are defending ORF's dangerously defective receivers by claiming the test results that Todd himself approved and references don't exist?

You really are a silly goose. I guess I'll type this slower so you can follow.

This Todd guy - ok - you are supposed to be on his side (unless you are an agent provacateur ) and, like, fer sure - he totally agrees these tests exist. So, like, to say I'm bogus would be saying he's bogus too and like, that would be bogus . . .

So like, check it out, Holmes, the issue isn't the existence of like, this totally rad e-mail from the testing machine shop, but like, how Todd deliberately misled readers by giving the >40 hardness result, without mentioning it wasn't taken in the critical area which the same guys said was way bogus.

So, like, you dig it now? Hey take hit of this Jamaican red, that ough to help . ..



Funny, if you have the results, you should be able to post them. Post the Email. Post a Scan of the email. Even edit out the Email addresses.

Just post it.

The world is Flat. I can get 1000 people to agree with me.

You claim to have proof it is not...But you cannot present it.

Is the world flat? By those 1000 people's word it is.the only thing that has been proven flat is your brain waves,the proof is in your brainless post in at least 2 threads.GP keep the weed away from this dude his last brains cell is already overloaded by waking up this morning.

One or 500 people's word means NOTHING

There is no room in the mind of a zealot where reason may enter. Thank you for stating your position so clearly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storydude1
One or 500 people's word means NOTHING

well it could boil down to 12 people's thoughts and 500 witnesses will carry alot of weight compared to 1 defective firearm producer and his 1 barking fan,td

Funny, if you have the results, you should be able to post them. Post the Email. Post a Scan of the email. Even edit out the Email addresses.

Just post it.

Redacted as necessary for cust. privacy

------------------------------------

XXXXXX@XXXXXX

> Hello Mark,
>
> I didn't want to air things over the 'Net, so I haven't jumped into
> any discussions about my Galils.
>
> Yes, I contacted Todd @ ORF after our (yours and mine on the phone) on
> Friday regarding the Galil built for xxxxxx. I basically asked
> him if he would do something about his receiver since you told me that
> it is the reason for my gun went out of spec so quickly. Of course, I
> didn't know these discussions have already been aired over Uzitalk and
> AKforum, if I did, I wouldn't have bought the Galil from xxxxx.
>
> xxxxxx offered to buy back the gun, basically he would eat it, but I
> can't let my friend hang out to dry, so we are going get this worked
> out together.
>
> Here is what I am proposing:
>
> 1) Since you said that these Galils were head spaced correctly and
> the reason they went out of spec so quickly is because of the soft
> receivers, xxxxxxxx will have both tested for Rockwell hardness at an
> engineering shop.
>
> 2) If it turns out they are below the stated 40 to 45 Rockwell scale
> C, we will ship them to ORF for replacement. They will become Todd's
> problem and we will leave you completely out of it.
>
> 3) If they are in fact at 40 or better, we would like for you to take
> care of the problem for us.

----------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Our Galils
From:
<gunplumber@arizonaresponsesystems.com>
Date:
Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:38:15 -0700
To:
<xxxxxxxxxxx>

sounds good, except "40-45" is a HUGE range, and I don't believe for a
minute that the "specs" are that sloppy. I'd be surprised if the
tolerance was wider than 2, 3 at the most on the Rockwell C Scale.

----------------------------
Hello Todd,
I have been in contact with Mark G. of ARS about my Galil head spacing problem, but before going further with what I am about to propose, I need to fill you in on the details:
I purchased this Galil from my friend, XXXXXXX, who is also an FFL holder. He bought two Galil kits with new GM barrels and two ORF Galil receivers. Both were sent to ARS for building into functional rifles. I bought one in September 2007 and xxxxx kept the other. Mine has approximately 90 rounds through before experiencing case separations. With further testing using different ammunition brands, the round count is approximately 120. I now have a total of 6 case separations and a few that shown signs of impending case separation. I purchased a Forster .223 No Go and a Field gages from Midway to check head spacing. My rifle closed on both gages. xxxxxx’s rifle has approximately 30 rounds through when we tested its head space with No Go and Field gages, same result as it closes on both gages. We contacted ARS for corrective action and in Mark's opinion, the ORF receivers have not been properly heat treated thus there is nothing he can do to remedy the head spacing problem.
Since you stated that the Galil receivers had been heat treated to 40-45 Rc, we have a common point of contention. Regardless of which party is correct, we have 2 Galils with unsafe head spacing problem and 2 unhappy customers. To help move things forward in a cordial and reasonable manner, this is what I'd proposed to Mark G. of ARS:
1) XXXXX will have our Galils tested for hardness on Rockwell scale C from a local engineering shop.
2) If the test shown these receivers meet or exceed Rockwell hardness of 40 Rc, ARS will fix our Galils.
3) If these receiver fail to meet Rockwell hardness of 40 Rc, they will go back to ORF for remedial action.
Mark agreed to my proposal in principle, but not sure if we should set the hardness at 40, perhaps it should be at 42. I told Mark that without knowing exactly what factory blue print says, I can only use the lower number that you had told me, which was 40. Mark stated that he has an IMI Galil there that he will try to send out for receiver hardness testing. I told him that if he can get it done, we will use that result as a benchmark.
At this point, your assistance is requested and I would like to know if my proposed solution is workable with ORF. Please review and let me know.
Thank you!


----------------------------------------------


Hello Mark,

I received a positive answer from Todd G. of ORF regarding my proposed resolution. Now we just need to wait for the hardness test done on our Galils.

Will keep you posted.

Thanks,

xxxxxxxxx

---------------------------------------------
________________________________________
From: TGrove xxxxxxx. Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 2:18 AM
Toxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Galil problem update
HD,
That would be just fine. I can send/show you what my heattreater send these to me at, and also the IMI print specs if need be.

Todd

-----------------

------------------------------------------------------

Good morning Todd and Mark,

Sorry the Rockwell test took a bit longer to obtain than I thought. We have the tests done by a local machinist with using both mechanical test machine and surface hardness files at the right side locking lug recess.

As you read in the attached email, both guns were tested on the right side, both passed the RC hardness scale at or above 40. Based on what we had agreed to back in November of 2007, if the test show these receivers at 40 RC or more, Mark will help us fix these Galils. However, to be fair, in the machinists' opinion, the receivers are soft at the locking lug recess based on their surface file tests, certainly not what we had agreed to as far as using an other party's opinion for measuring metrics.

Any thoughts from you both at this point because I don't know what to do. We certainly could use your help in remedial actions.

Thanks!

Date:
Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:03:23 -0700
To:
<xxxxxxx.com>

xxxxxx,

Here is what I have. xxxxxxxx did the testing for us. Galil's were RC tested with results only available for the righthand side of both receivers. You can see in the pics the circled area showing where the testing was done. Unfortunately we could not get a leftside reading. More importantly and RC was done in the locking recess areas with a surface hardness file < 50 R/C was indicated. After several machinists looked at the wear around the locking recess area there general consensus was that the receiver was too soft in this area allowing the premature wear.


----------------------------------------------------

xxxxxx,
I think its fair to say an opinion is just that. It tested as agreed to 40 or above. Here is what I propose, I will sell you two new barrels at my cost of $68ea + ship and Mark can rebarrel your guns for you.

Todd

---------------------
xxxxx

I did the work for which I was comissioned correctly. If you read the followup in the thread on AK files, others are also having problems with soft locking lugs and headspace stretching - independent confirmation of my suspicions. As it is a flawed receiver, and not an issue with my work I can be of no assistance to you in this matter.
I absolutely understand your frustration here - you did nothing wrong, and its reasonable to assume a company manufacturing a rifle receiver will take due dillegence in making that receiver safe and to industry standards of quality.

We have had some discussion on the AK files on whether a receiver can be annealed and then heat treated correctly. This may be possible, but it is outside my area of expertise. I will no longer accept any ORF products.

-Mark

As you read in the attached email, both guns were tested on the right side, both passed the RC hardness scale at or above 40.

Nice to see the Fly-By-Night Machine shop also gave you an exact reading.

Looks like all the definitive answer I need.

As you read in the attached email, both guns were tested on the right side, both passed the RC hardness scale at or above 40.

Nice to see the Fly-By-Night Machine shop also gave you an exact reading.

Looks like all the definitive answer I need.

The relevant parts are:

1.) events transpired as I reported, and your claim of me falsifying information is without merit

2.) The customer and his tester both agree with my assessment that the receiver locking recesses are deformed from being too soft - the outside receiver hardness is immaterial to receivers failures.

3.) you have lied repeatedly.


I am many things - a liar is not one of them. When you have integrity, nothing else matters. But my dear grasshopper, when you do not have integrity, nothing else matters. You have forever defined yourself with your lies.

As you read in the attached email, both guns were tested on the right side, both passed the RC hardness scale at or above 40.

Nice to see the Fly-By-Night Machine shop also gave you an exact reading.

Looks like all the definitive answer I need.
As you read in the attached email, both guns were tested on the right side, both passed the RC hardness scale at or above 40. Based on what we had agreed to back in November of 2007, if the test show these receivers at 40 RC or more, Mark will help us fix these Galils. However, to be fair, in the machinists' opinion, the receivers are soft at the locking lug recess based on their surface file tests, certainly not what we had agreed to as far as using an other party's opinion for measuring metrics.

Any thoughts from you both at this point because I don't know what to do. We certainly could use your help in remedial actions.

Thanks!

Date:
Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:03:23 -0700
To:


xxxxxx,

Here is what I have. xxxxxxxx did the testing for us. Galil's were RC tested with results only available for the righthand side of both receivers. You can see in the pics the circled area showing where the testing was done. Unfortunately we could not get a leftside reading. More importantly and RC was done in the locking recess areas with a surface hardness file < 50 R/C was indicated. After several machinists looked at the wear around the locking recess area there general consensus was that the receiver was too soft in this area allowing the premature wear.



Looks like all the definitive answer anyone with common sense would need.What was ORF response "we will give you a new barrel" sorry but a quality receiver would be all thats needed,not junk that streches and turns into a saftey issue.td

According to the 3rd party, the Rec. PASSED the Rc testing put forth under the standards agreed upon by both parties.

Case Closed.

According to the 3rd party, the Rec. PASSED the Rc testing put forth under the standards agreed upon by both parties.

Case Closed.your so stupid that the 3rd party could have said they seen butter harder than the receivers and you would have said well it must be GP cause butters pretty hard.You take 1 sentence out of the entire post and you think it validates your opinion.Bottom line Todd Grove and ORF make junk receivers and lay the blame on everyone's doorstep but their own.td

your so stupid that the 3rd party could have said they seen butter harder than the receivers and you would have said well it must be GP cause butters pretty hard.

Tell us what you really think, td...:)

But it is pretty maddening...

Storydude (an appropriate name, I'm sure), there are classes that you can take at community colleges that will allow you to learn enough about metals and firearms to follow the arguments, you know...

Do yourself (and, for that matter, Todd) a favor and chill...

Forrest

The OPINION of the 3rd party stating "The locking lugs APPEAR soft" is immaterial to the FACT that the Receiver PASSED the Rc standards set forth in mutual agreement.

Try and dispute that FACT.

Even when the proof is in front of you, you keep blindly following the sheep down his trail of Libel.

The bottom line is with the plethora of problems with the ORF receiver & the results from the testers of the receivers that any rational, logical person would realize that the problem is with the receiver & not a multitude of builders.

I am not a builder like GP, but I have over 30 years in both mechanics & machine work.It becomes abundantly clear there is a problem with the receivers.
What I found interesting is that the IMI Galil tested <50 R/C. Maybe that tells one that 40 to 45 still isn't sufficient for a Galil receiver.

Someone please step up to the plate & make a quality Galil receiver that we can buy. While I am willing to save my Shekels for an IMI Galil, I hate having to put out $3K for one. Just my 2 cents.

Storydouche's zealotry is slowly shifting from entertaining to boring.

According to his delusions, if the locking recesses are so soft as not even be measurable - like below 28 RC, then thats okay, so long as somewhere else on the receiver they can find a spot that is 40 RC.

While it is amusing (in a sad way) that someone can be so stupid and not be mistaken for a small soap dish, repeating the same mantra ad nauseum is becoming tedious.

Storydouche's zealotry is slowly shifting from entertaining to boring.

According to his delusions, if the locking recesses are so soft as not even be measurable - like below 28 RC, then thats okay, so long as somewhere else on the receiver they can find a spot that is 40 RC.

While it is amusing (in a sad way) that someone can be so stupid and not be mistaken for a small soap dish, repeating the same mantra ad nauseum is becoming tedious.
Please explain how you, with your VAST years of Heat treating Experience, can make a claim that "Well, they were able to find ONE spot that was spec'ed hardness...."

Last time I knew, Heat-treating required bring an entire part up to temp, and quenching it. Explain how 1 part of a receiver can be X degrees and another not 1 inch away be another temp, of a difference great enough to prevent the proper Rc hardness. Difficult if not using Induction Heating....Which is MUCH more expensive in a production environment than Oven-Heating and difficult for an irregularly shaped part.

So, he cuts corners on one step, but uses the most expensive method of heat-treating in the next?


Still does not have anything to do with the Receivers MEETING the Specs you both agreed upon.

I think I've documented my findings sufficiently. Now its your turn.

Produce this invoice you have repeatedly claimed to have obtained from my office through industrial espionage.

Whats that about chirping?

I think I've documented my findings sufficiently. Now its your turn.

Produce this invoice you have repeatedly claimed to have obtained from my office through industrial espionage.

Whats that about chirping?
Read my post again.

Then take it to the Basement.

Plain-View != "Industrial Espionage"

More excuses. (No surprises there). C'mon, boy, lets see you back your screed with this damning evidence . .. .

(crickets)

I think I've documented my findings sufficiently. Now its your turn.

Produce this invoice you have repeatedly claimed to have obtained from my office through industrial espionage.

Whats that about chirping?
well I give GP credit he produced the paper work,how about you story are you a man of your word or are you as full of crap as we all think?I suspect the latter,td

well I give GP credit he produced the paper work,how about you story are you a man of your word or are you as full of crap as we all think?I suspect the latter,td
GP is a man of his word?



Did he fix that man's rifles like he agreed to if the Rec passed with over a 40 Rc hardness rating? Like it DID?














































There is you man of his Word.

Hey Mark...

Here's a gift for you.

The Kid's whole deal about the "paperwork" he said he has ...

He ain't got nothing.

Zero, zip, nada

It was a "ploy". He calls it "misleading information".



Since he didn't post it up here...I figured you might want to see it...

...just so you could respond to it.





He's ALL yours...



CPO Ted

Quote From the Basement:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Storydude1
That was my whole ploy in claiming I had an invoice.


I can see most here have never heard of Misleading information to produce TRUTHFUL information. Basic interrogation technique's.

GP made a deal to repair rifles if they passed an independent 3rd party Rc test. They DID. GP weaseled out of fixing that man's rifles, AND kept his 1050 dollars he received for the build.


Who's the Shyster here?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by gunplumber
The relevant parts are:

1.) events transpired as I reported, and your claim of me falsifying information is without merit

2.) The customer and his tester both agree with my assessment that the receiver locking recesses are deformed from being too soft - the outside receiver hardness is immaterial to receivers failures.

3.) you have lied repeatedly.


I am many things - a liar is not one of them. When you have integrity, nothing else matters. But my dear grasshopper, when you do not have integrity, nothing else matters. You have forever defined yourself with your lies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A PLOY??? You accused G/P and NODAK of ripping folks off. There was no need to involve NODAK.

"Misleading information"? You lied.


I am that "Gun Plumber Hater" Stormy looked for ... Although I got no dog in this fight...I've been looking for you to have the cards...

You got nothing.


You lose Kid...

Game over.


Go away.

CPO T

Hey Mark...

Here's a gift for you.

The Kid's whole deal about the "paperwork" he said he has ...

He ain't got nothing.

Zero, zip, nada

It was a "ploy". He calls it "misleading information".



Since he didn't post it up here...I figured you might want to see it...

...just so you could respond to it.





He's ALL yours...



CPO Ted

Quote From the Basement:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Storydude1
That was my whole ploy in claiming I had an invoice.


I can see most here have never heard of Misleading information to produce TRUTHFUL information. Basic interrogation technique's.

GP made a deal to repair rifles if they passed an independent 3rd party Rc test. They DID. GP weaseled out of fixing that man's rifles, AND kept his 1050 dollars he received for the build.


Who's the Shyster here?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by gunplumber
The relevant parts are:

1.) events transpired as I reported, and your claim of me falsifying information is without merit

2.) The customer and his tester both agree with my assessment that the receiver locking recesses are deformed from being too soft - the outside receiver hardness is immaterial to receivers failures.

3.) you have lied repeatedly.


I am many things - a liar is not one of them. When you have integrity, nothing else matters. But my dear grasshopper, when you do not have integrity, nothing else matters. You have forever defined yourself with your lies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A PLOY??? You accused G/P and NODAK of ripping folks off. There was no need to involve NODAK.

"Misleading information"? You lied.


I am that "Gun Plumber Hater" Stormy looked for ... Although I got no dog in this fight...I've been looking for you to have the cards...

You got nothing.


You lose Kid...

Game over.


Go away.

CPO T


GP's whole deal of fixing that man's rifles if they passed RC(which they DID) means nothing I guess?

Nice to see more people defend a shyster.

Too bad this thread and the info herein has been forwarded to the parties interested.

My work here is done.

Yeah, I knew he was a lying. There is no "ploy" - he just got spanked and "ploy" seemed marginally better than "my dog ate it".

I am an arrogant bastard, a prick, a condescending, sanctimonious .. . etc etc . and my mother dresses me funny. But a liar I am not.

I'm still not sure what storydouche thinks he's accomplished, as the issue of "the locking recesses are soft as butter but hey - this spot scored a 40) is old news. All he's done is alert hundreds of more people to stay away from the dangerous and defective ORF receivers. I think he really hates ORF, and his "ploy" was to pretend to be an ORF supporter so all the damning evidence from all the people Todd screwed over with his defective receivers could re-air their stories. That bumps all the details to the main page, as well moving up the references in the various search engines.

yep. storydouche resurrecting the topic here has moved AK Files to #1 and # 2 on Google, and my website review to #3.

Todd's website doesn't even appear on the first page of a search for "ORF + Galil"

I'm sure Todd is grateful for storydouche's "help"




The AK Files Forums - ORF Galil Info
Jun 25, 2006 ... Maybe ORF will run a Q&A program on their Galil receiver and fine tune it so that people will no longer have these problems after reading it ...
www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12500 - 67k - Cached - Similar pages
The AK Files Forums - WTT or WTS ORF Micro Galil Receiver....NEW ...
May 21, 2008 ... A friend of mine fell in love with the Galil and bought this receiver last year from Todd at ORF. He has since fallen on hard times and sold ...
www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38420 - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
More results from www.akfiles.com »
Gunplumber's Notes
I reviewed an ORF Galil receiver a few years ago, and while buildable, it had several problems that may made it a challenging build for the inexperienced ...
www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/orfgalil2/pageorfgalil2.htm - 13k -

Yeah, I knew he was a lying. There is no "ploy" - he just got spanked and "ploy" seemed marginally better than "my dog ate it".

:laugh_sma

I am an arrogant bastard, a prick, a condescending, sanctimonious .. . etc etc . and my mother dresses me funny. But a liar I am not.


Yeah...but ya hung in.

Not for nothing...From my read...ya' know yer shit and ya' did the right thing.

That goes a long way with me.

Ya' santimonious bastard...

:wink_smal

CPO Ted

Congratulations Gunplumber , on achieving a higher profile on the search engines.

Great free advertising , hope it'll bring you more business and $$$$$$

GP's whole deal of fixing that man's rifles if they passed RC(which they DID) means nothing I guess?

Nice to see more people defend a shyster.

Too bad this thread and the info herein has been forwarded to the parties interested.

My work here is done.
His work is done?When does the ax fall?td

Congratulations Gunplumber , on achieving a higher profile on the search engines.

Great free advertising , hope it'll bring you more business and $$$$$$

yeah - its ironic - even if someone posts "gunplumber at Arizona Response Systems is an arrogant bastard" it raises my website in the search engine ranking and brings me more business.

Unfortunately, I'm already so backlogged that I haven't taken any new work this year and don't plan on it. So it just gets me more phonecalls of people wanting to get on my waiting list.

A "santimonious" bastard...

T

Did I spell it wrong?

A salacious, suave, smarmy, smirching and sanctimonious bastard. (And Handsome too. .. . )

WOW...

an alliteration.

I'll bet that you and I (and English Mike...but he's smart) number among the few who even know what one is.

Ya' left off "smug".

T

The world is Flat. I can get 1000 people to agree with me.

You claim to have proof it is not...But you cannot present it.

Is the world flat? By those 1000 people's word it is.


The "Bash ORF/Flat Earth Society" is still in the dark, I see.





http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/image.php?u=2118&dateline=1165362303

Hmmmmm

yup,all of the above.BUUUUUT I wouldn't go so far as to say handsome..:tongue_sm

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s215/M-70AB2/mike.jpg

WOW...

an alliteration.

I'll bet that you and I (and English Mike...but he's smart) number among the few who even know what one is.

Ya' left off "smug".

T

definitely smug. Maybe time for a limerick - or maybe in the Bard of Olde's iambic pentameter.

Yeah from the extremest upwards of mine head
to the decent and dust beneath my feet,
a most toad-spotted bastard!
Sayest though no?
This Dremel and this vise shall do thee justice!

.

There I was, deep in the woods. I saw a slight glimmer about 60-70 yards away up in a tree. I lined up my shot, and breathed in deeply , anxious for the coming report. *BANG*.....My 7.62 had not failed me as I watched with delight the tearing of metal and the spray of a foamy brown mist through the forest.....The pepsi had been slain.

While it is amusing (in a sad way) that someone can be so stupid and not be mistaken for a small soap dish

I LIKE that!! ya actually got an unexpected laugh outa me and that ain't easy!! do ya mind if I use that? LMAO damn it applies to so many...... unfortunatly
:small_gri it is SO true regarding Storydouch1 though

I had iambic pentameter one time...a BAD case...we cleared it up with brown Octagon Soap and a good stiff brush!


CPO T


BTW...the soap dish thing WAS pretty good. Just so's ya' know...I DO intend stealing it.

BTW...the soap dish thing WAS pretty good. Just so's ya' know...I DO intend stealing it.

Its from an "insult I either heard when I was teaching elementary school or when I was in elementary school.

Duuhhhhh . . .. .
My name is Storydouche
I live in a box
I have the IQ of a small soap dish
duhhhhhhh

I had a thought that had somehow escaped me up to this point. As far as all the bad shits concerned, we've been talking about the standard .223 AR/ARM style rifle....But what about the Micro Galil?
Have there been known issues with it? What I'm getting at is that it should have been made from a different set of prints. Sooooo, are the lands for the bolt lugs uneven on the Micro? Any problems with hardness?
I can't recall hearing about Micro specific problems and I wasn't sure if it's just a matter of numbers produced.....or is there something specific that can be identified as different.

What do you mean by 'breaking'...?

We just had a micro-Galil come in to the shop last week (ORF receiver, AZEX build). The gun looked nice.

The owner brought it in because a case had separated in the chamber, which we removed...

The gun swallowed a field gauge...

Both locking lug recesses were severely battered and set-back...

The owner claimed that the gun had 40 rounds through it...

Does that count as 'broken,' or does it have to blow up in pieces...?

Forrest

You mean, kind of like this...?

Forrest

So much for that train of thought........

I had a thought that had somehow escaped me up to this point. As far as all the bad shits concerned, we've been talking about the standard .223 AR/ARM style rifle....But what about the Micro Galil?
Have there been known issues with it? What I'm getting at is that it should have been made from a different set of prints. Sooooo, are the lands for the bolt lugs uneven on the Micro? Any problems with hardness?
I can't recall hearing about Micro specific problems and I wasn't sure if it's just a matter of numbers produced.....or is there something specific that can be identified as different.

As Forrest mentioned, the Micro receivers do have the same issues as the fullsize receivers. The rifle he's talking about is actually mine, and his description is accurate. I didn't get a chance to talk to Forrest (which is unfortunate, as I'm pretty sure we've interacted before in a more academic setting), but the other folks at the shop were very helpful.

For future reference, what is the "correct" way to counteract the problem of non-contacting locking lugs (other than the obvious "get a receiver that makes good contact")? I would be worried that removing material from either the lugs or the bolt could mess with the heat treat of the metal.

EDIT: What is more worrying, at least to me, is that my other Galil, an AKForum SERII assembled by Troy at InRange, is starting to show the same signs of wear - deformation on the right shoulder. I'm worried that, if this continues, I'll end up with another defunct piece of metal scrap art in the shape of a "rifle". Is there something I can do to counteract this?

That's the problem. There is no fix. It is a fatal flaw. The receivers are fundamentally defective.


Even if one were to come up with a way to reliably weld-up the defective locking lug recesses and then heat treat the area, you're out hundreds of dollars in labor and refinish.

I wish it weren't so, but I see no rational conclusion other than "you are well and truly screwed"

@ some point some one needs to take one of these receivers & get it cut up & have the hardness or lack there of documented. I would like to see a number. I agree with gunplumber on this issue, but would like to see just what the difference is in metal hardness & other discrepancies there are between these receivers & an IMI are.

I could... COULD... RC test my unbuilt ORF receiver.

"Technically" the heat treat should NOT vary between the piece. So testing a receiver anywhere would provide a RC reading.

I could test mine underneath where the trigger guard would go. However... my question is this. What good would it do? Is ORF going to give me (or you) a refund?

Hardly...

But... if enough people are interested, maybe... just maybe I might.

-myers

I could... COULD... RC test my unbuilt ORF receiver.

"Technically" the heat treat should NOT vary between the piece. So testing a receiver anywhere would provide a RC reading.

I could test mine underneath where the trigger guard would go. However... my question is this. What good would it do? Is ORF going to give me (or you) a refund?

Hardly...

But... if enough people are interested, maybe... just maybe I might.

I think that we all appreciate the offer, but I don't think that testing this way will help much...

Depending on the technique used for hardening, different parts of the receiver will harden somewhat differently (a function of how the receiver is heated, the mass of metal in specific areas and other factors). Testing the bottom of the receiver near the trigger guard, if the testing is done properly, will tell you how hard the material is on the bottom of the receiver near the trigger guard, and may not be that helpful in terms of testing the hardness of the locking lug area (which is the area in question here).

Personally, I don't need to see any RC numbers to tell if this area is too soft if a cheap, Chinese file will remove material with essentially no pressure applied...

If appropriately heat treated, the locking lug recesses will not be set-back and mushroom with only a few rounds through the gun. Hell, I've seen IMI Galil receivers through which several thousand rounds have been 'processed' with lug recesses that look completely original with no distortion.

Forrest

EDIT: What is more worrying, at least to me, is that my other Galil, an AKForum SERII assembled by Troy at InRange, is starting to show the same signs of wear - deformation on the right shoulder. I'm worried that, if this continues, I'll end up with another defunct piece of metal scrap art in the shape of a "rifle". Is there something I can do to counteract this?

D, I'm sorry that I missed you when you brought the Micro-Galil in...

Come back again...:)

I'm usually there from mid-afternoon to closing (technically, the shop is open 9-5 (but usually closing is closer to 6:30-7PM most weekdays)), Tue-Sat...

And, if you get a chance and feel so inclined, please bring your 'regular' Galil in for me to take a look at... I haven't seen an InRange assembled gun before and would like to take a look at it, and I'd also like to take a careful look at the receiver too...

Later...

Forrest

I think that we all appreciate the offer, but I don't think that testing this way will help much...

Depending on the technique used for hardening, different parts of the receiver will harden somewhat differently (a function of how the receiver is heated, the mass of metal in specific areas and other factors). Testing the bottom of the receiver near the trigger guard, if the testing is done properly, will tell you how hard the material is on the bottom of the receiver near the trigger guard, and may not be that helpful in terms of testing the hardness of the locking lug area (which is the area in question here).

Personally, I don't need to see any RC numbers to tell if this area is too soft if a cheap, Chinese file will remove material with essentially no pressure applied...

If appropriately heat treated, the locking lug recesses will not be set-back and mushroom with only a few rounds through the gun. Hell, I've seen IMI Galil receivers through which several thousand rounds have been 'processed' with lug recesses that look completely original with no distortion.

Forrest

Any decent heat treat will provide a UNIFORM hardness throughout a metal piece. At least... at the tool and die shop I am currently employed at when we heat treat pieces they come out with a uniform hardness.

-myers

Any decent heat treat will provide a UNIFORM hardness throughout a metal piece. At least... at the tool and die shop I am currently employed at when we heat treat pieces they come out with a uniform hardness.


myers,

The pieces that you are heat treating come out with a uniform hardness because you've designed a process to produce a 'piece' with a uniform hardness...

The manufacturers of forged/milled receivers usually don't want to produce a 'piece' with uniform hardness, although there are exceptions to that rule...

Forrest

;P tis true unfortunately.

Though... really... is it that hard?

Insert into heat treat oven, set temp and metal type. Light and let it run through the heat cycle that you programmed. Pull the piece, quench, air cool, or temper.

I do know that 4140 is a difficult metal to heat treat, we send all of our 4140 elsewhere at it is not very forgiving and there is quite a tight curve that is required to be hit just right.

-myers

What is more worrying, at least to me, is that my other Galil, an AKForum SERII assembled by Troy at InRange, is starting to show the same signs of wear - deformation on the right shoulder.

I'm worried that, if this continues, I'll end up with another defunct piece of metal scrap art in the shape of a "rifle".




...on and on the sloppy manufacturing continues, the customers crying out as everyone takes the shaft.





....and there is quite a tight curve that is required to be hit just right.

-myers


It appears the only thing being hit just right in the case of these Galils is a fattie or a bottle of Captain Morgan.

D, I'm sorry that I missed you when you brought the Micro-Galil in...

Come back again...:)

I'm usually there from mid-afternoon to closing (technically, the shop is open 9-5 (but usually closing is closer to 6:30-7PM most weekdays)), Tue-Sat...

And, if you get a chance and feel so inclined, please bring your 'regular' Galil in for me to take a look at... I haven't seen an InRange assembled gun before and would like to take a look at it, and I'd also like to take a careful look at the receiver too...

Later...

Forrest

Forrest,

Are you going to be in the shop on the 26th? If you are, I'll see about dropping by with my SERII for you to take a look at.

Derek

Forrest,

Are you going to be in the shop on the 26th? If you are, I'll see about dropping by with my SERII for you to take a look at.

Derek

Derek,

I'll be in the shop on the 26th, probably from about noon to 5PM (perhaps even starting a little earlier than noon).

If you get a chance, please stop in...

Forest

@ some point some one needs to take one of these receivers & get it cut up & have the hardness or lack there of documented. I would like to see a number. I agree with gunplumber on this issue, but would like to see just what the difference is in metal hardness & other discrepancies there are between these receivers & an IMI are.

You mean like this?

loner42
Member



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Quote: Originally Posted by Rapid Fire
GP,
Wow, nice answer, a machinist is not a gunsmith. A improper build, as in which you have done will lead to this. I am gonna take A and Hs guns and cut them in half (guys don't worry, I'll replace the receivers), have them tested on the lugs themselves, I'll post the results. I already pulled the barrels and see the "handy" work you have done there, did you use a hand drill to ream the barrels, or your dremel? WOW! I'll split them and post pics too of this.

Todd@ORF
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Hey Todd, this was 5 mos. and 13 days ago . I somehow managed to go thru all 47 pages of this shitfest and never saw the results of this RC test. Is it in the alt. tread? I'm fixin to go to that one now , it's only 9 pages as of today.
__________________




Not that this will help any (if he ever responds to it with some pics and honest numbers. Unfortunately for poor ol Todd, this does'nt end here. What about the Yugo receivers, VZ58 receivers, and claims to start up production on the "Tooth Fairy" Fal receivers ? The flaws as i see them are his method of madness in the production and QA (or more like lack of) aspects when he starts producing a receiver.

This will be a never ending saga until TG changes the way he does business as a Firearms receiver manufacturer ( or of anything else as far as that's concerned).

Here's a rant i had on AK Forum awhile back . Does any of this sound familiar ?
I don't know how Todd can sleep at night...................

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45475&highlight=
Notice they moved it to ORF's Forum and locked it . I originally posted it on this forum.

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42338&highlight=

Here's a rant i had on AK Forum awhile back . Does any of this sound familiar ?
I don't know how Todd can sleep at night...................

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45475&highlight=
Notice they moved it to ORF's Forum and locked it . I originally posted it on this forum.

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42338&highlight=


Thats AKForum for you - Pay the owner enough money and he'll shill your products for you and delete or lock anyone who has any problems with your products. And he's already demonstrated here he's a whore for ORF (as compared to Oswald, who is a slut for ORF. The whore gets paid).