ORF Galil receiver "concerns" or ideas about the problem and suggestions to remedy it

Ok, ORF receiver (first series), needed a "little tweaking" . AK bullet guide that was fitted at that time, had a rivet way to high, ejector to long and a little rough machining,--but workable.

Biggest problem, was setting up the Headspace, as Lugs in the Receiver didn't match up with the bolt. Again, that issue was overcome by working/machining the rear bolt surfaces. Conducted a search for spare bolts and had a precision Machine shop match the bolt to the receiver.
Headspace was set . Functioned flawlessly. The only issue was/is, the Right Shoulder in the receiver bulging back,--which does increase headspace.
Both left and right bolt lugs engage in the receiver, but only the right deforms on a relatively small number of rounds. The Bulging neutralises the "Perfect fit".

I've been given, "It's settling/shooting in",---But frankly, hearing that makes me a little nervous. I guess others have a similar situation with the right shoulder and others not.

With all the previous talk of Heat Treatment, I had the receiver tested,---Where we could reach, was not on the shoulder unfortunately. It came out at 39--41 Rockwell C on the flats,--external surface. So, if it's hard enough, why is the right shoulder bulging, deforming. There has to be a reason --and a solution.

Ok, ORF receiver (first series), needed a "little tweaking" . AK bullet guide that was fitted at that time, had a rivet way to high, ejector to long and a little rough machining,--but workable.

Biggest problem, was setting up the Headspace, as Lugs in the Receiver didn't match up with the bolt. Again, that issue was overcome by working/machining the rear bolt surfaces. Conducted a search for spare bolts and had a precision Machine shop match the bolt to the receiver.
Headspace was set . Functioned flawlessly. The only issue was/is, the Right Shoulder in the receiver bulging back,--which does increase headspace.
Both left and right bolt lugs engage in the receiver, but only the right deforms on a relatively small number of rounds. The Bulging neutralises the "Perfect fit".

I've been given, "It's settling/shooting in",---But frankly, hearing that makes me a little nervous. I guess others have a similar situation with the right shoulder and others not.

With all the previous talk of Heat Treatment, I had the receiver tested,---Where we could reach, was not on the shoulder unfortunately. It came out at 39--41 Rockwell C on the flats,--external surface. So, if it's hard enough, why is the right shoulder bulging, deforming. There has to be a reason --and a solution.




What do you mean by the right shoulder?

Not finished building at time of photo.

PULLTHRU,
I have the same condition going on in my build, I've since purchased a new bolt and worked the lugs to verify contact on both sides.
Another concern that I'm not sure comes into play is that the bolt carrier only contacts (stops against) the receiver on the right side, and has a .076" (2mm) gap on the left. I did have to correct the radius issue on the right side, but 2mm would have been a lot of material to remove to make the carrier contact the receiver on both sides. All of my AK's have "even" left to right contact between the carrier and front trunion.
Is it common to have this gap on all Galil varriations (I.M.I., AA, Magnum Research, ORF builds, Century builds)?

***Note-without contaminating the build thread, this is one of the issues I would like to have addressed, if it's an issue at all, as in, should I have built up this area on the carrier, or removed the 2mm of material
from the right side of the receiver to make sure I have "even" left to right contact here first, before setting headspace?

I am going to move some posts recently posted to the ORF Galil thread over here as they really are borderline regarding the thread topic but still are related to a valid concern of owners of these receivers, this will provide a fresh thread just dealing with this issue alone, any name calling or general pissing contest crap will not be tolerated so lets stick with the facts and valid suggestions etc... same for any questions

DStorm

Mods,
Great, another thread!

USGI,
Here is what I do not get, sorry to call you out, but there is alot of "self proclamed experts" GP is one. WE DO NOT CAST, USE A FORGING, its 100% billet 4140 on our pieces, always have been just that. As you guys ask me. Show me pics of these casting marks!! Again USGI sorry, I am not picking on you, but there billet.

Todd@ORF

6500rpm.

Not sure, but I have a gap on the left also. I've read the Galil is that way and cannot remember if the Factory ones, I used long ago, had the Gap.

Rapid fire, GP has not offered any comments here, do not start on that road, your comment above is exactly what will invite the exact same bickering BS ya already had going in the other thread, this was an attempt to let ya address a very valid concern without all the bickering and so on ya can either use that oppertunity or ya can continue your personal attacks regarding another vendor GP etc.... the latter will not benifit anyone especially not the party initiating such so if ya'd care to edit your reply above....

I think USGIs questions regarding casting is his attempt to try to be on yourside regarding the deformed right locking recess issue as somehing other than a heat treating issue....... this is an oppertunity for you to actually work WITH your customers to resolve a problem, starting out with a deffensive attack is really not the best way to go.....

Pullthru,
That picture you just posted has not one thing to do about headspace nor function. GP may say it does, but pull out your Aks and tell me which ones (country of origin) contact that surface 100% in the rear. I think you guys are confusing this "lug contact issue". I have found that out and posted as such seeing the hack job GP did for H and As guns. They were screwed together and thats it, plain and simple. Did GP make sure the bolt contacted the locking lugs (those would be the ones the bolt head touchs on the inside of the receiver) no he did not, missed the left side by .007 and now the guns need rebuilt, and this man does not stand behind what he screws together. Plain and simple, get a builder that knows the guns 100%, stands behind his work, or buy a Century.

Todd@ORF

Dstorm,
How about follow what all GP has said about my receivers and why they deform. I have answered each and everyone of them time and time again in these threads. Now I call out GP for what hes pulled with two of his customers on my product with invaild points he has and I am wrong? Why? I'll edit and copy what I have already posted on how and how not todo it on lug contact. And again its not the same lug that Pullthru has posted for confusion to the public.

Copied from the other thread

Fixed your post Mark!!! Just for your knowledge on H and As guns, so far I have found the following. Whatever you used to ream the chamber, dremel, hand drill, cause it was not a lathe, if it was it was not on center off by about .005, the body of the chamber is now "fat on one side". Rec, yeap one right lug mushroomed. Why? GP never checked in these builds for contact of both lugs. Right side had contact, left did not of approx .007. Got those dimensions from checking lugs to rec face, then bolt helix and how much the one side has fallen back. Its not a soft issue, its a build issue. 1 lug is not gonna take that much pressure. So after firing I think they said 2-300 rounds the lugs match the bolt helix. Now with firing, bolt does contact fully, headspace is no longer there, just moved .007. Case seperations due to that and also the oblong chamber ream job. So whats it take to fix these? New barrels (easiest fix which I offered to supply GP at my costs and his customers expense then he'd do the labor in which he declined and now I am), or you could cut the shoulders of the barrel and rotate everything around thats on the barrel. All would not of happened if a responsible builder would have built it.

Thats how not to do it.

Todd@ORF

DStorm,
One last, as you see in all our ads for any machined receiver its 100% billet, USGI can read that too right off our site. If he does not own one, has looked at our site, then the mention of castings would have never came up. Correct? So if were sticking to owners of the guns, assemblers, gunsmiths, lets stay on that track and lets keep this crap out too, no opinions, thought that was the point. Again, sorry USGI, no ill will.

Todd@ORF

Pullthru,
That picture you just posted has not one thing to do about headspace nor function. GP may say it does, but pull out your Aks and tell me which ones (country of origin) contact that surface 100% in the rear. I think you guys are confusing this "lug contact issue". I have found that out and posted as such seeing the hack job GP did for H and As guns. They were screwed together and thats it, plain and simple. Did GP make sure the bolt contacted the locking lugs (those would be the ones the bolt head touchs on the inside of the receiver) no he did not, missed the left side by .007 and now the guns need rebuilt, and this man does not stand behind what he screws together. Plain and simple, get a builder that knows the guns 100%, stands behind his work, or buy a Century.

Todd@ORF
Todd,
You've completely lost me now. The picture I "just" posted in response to 6500rpm was merely illustrating the bolt carrier gap. Headspace or function was not being discussed.

"And again its not the same lug that Pullthru has posted for confusion to the public".

Mr Grove : Please explain this comment

Todd.......... how bout we copy/paste your request for a thread without GP starting crap so ya could actually respond etc.... thats in that other thread too, however when your given that oppertunity...... ya can't stop tryin to start a fight even when that member doesn't even know the thread even exists yet!!! My gawd man....... ya have TWO customers with a couple issues looking for info and as far as I can tell GP has had nothing to do with either of their receivers at all........

Partner...... Your convincing me of one thing from your posts on AK Files..... but I'll not post it publically so much for the claims that all ya needed was a GP free thread to clear it all up etc..... ya had it and............ apperantly ya just aren't capable of doing it, or are ya?

I'd just like to see all these people get some sort of solution to their problem.......that should be your goal as well being the manufacturer of the product

Guys,

I think Todd has made a valid point about bolt contact. It make perfect sense to me. I don't care how hard you make the receiver,if the load is not transferred to the receiver right it will deform it. The one thing I would ask for us home builders what is the best way to make sure your getting good lug cotact. I have used a marker on the lugs and then put the head space gage in and worked bolt and carrier in and out then check for wear. I dont think the Galil is as easy to build as a demiled parts kit. When you take a well made ORF receiver and a well used parts kit from another country thing are not going to fall together.Yes there are some challenges with the build but thats half the fun. I think the the Galil on a 1 to 10 its about a 6 for building. I think the receivers that ORF makes are top shelf. That is why I have three now and one on order. Mods I hope I'm not out of line here. I don't know Todd personally but I'm a very happy ORF customer. I don't think that Todd would put out a receiver that would kill or maim anyone thats just crazy. If you don't build something right it will fail plan and simple. The last thing that I would add is if your are unhappy with something from ORF just call them and talk to the ladies very nicely you might be suprised what will happen.

Mustang 67

I too noticed the bolt carrier "gap" on the left side. I enlarged the radius on my carrier, it didn't make any difference, the bolt is already locked in at this point.

the area depicted in Pullthru's pic is of the bolts right locking shoulder/recess which has mushroomed out (the same way a piece of soft metal will mushroom if ya hit it with a hammer) if that occurs while fireing it will never be possible to maintain equal bolt contact as if that right shoulder is soft then it will continue to fail hence the headspace getting long.......... much like trying to jack up your car with half the jack sitting in soft sand while the other half is on solid ground...... the jack will tip over, in this case the bolt cannot lock up consistently...... the bolts locking lug rests solidly (or it should) against that shoulder...... I think the confusion is in folks not recognizing that there are TWO totally different concerns being shown the original is Pullthru's which is of the bolt locking recess , the second is 6500RPM's showing the gap on the left BC area

Pullthru all I can recommend in light of the posts from the manufacturer is that you spend the extra $$ to have the receiver properly heat treated by a competent shop specializing in firearms...... after the 4140 steel is correctly heat treated ya should not have any further problems I sure as hell would not use one of the receivers in the condition yours in the pic is in as there is simply too much liability in the event it kabooms on someone..... a large part of that liability rests with the manufacturer however you as the builder/owner knowing it was deffective would share in it.......

"Pullthru all I can recommend in light of the posts from the manufacturer is that you spend the extra $$ to have the receiver properly heat treated by a competent shop specializing in firearms...... after the 4140 steel is correctly heat treated ya should not have any further problems I sure as hell would not use one of the receivers in the condition yours in the pic is in as there is simply too much liability in the event it kabooms on someone..... a large part of that liability rests with the manufacturer however you as the builder/owner knowing it was deffective would share in it......."

Yep, that's the reason I 've seldom used it or sold it. Thought about breaking it down and selling off the parts, but for now, it remains a glorified Paperweight/wallhanger

dstorm 1911:
Appreciate your effort to create an environment where people with questions, could get answers / solutions to their questions.
Sadly, in this case, I believe it to be a futile excercise.

The remedy? At a loss I sold my beautiful ARM built on this reciever, with clear communication to the buyer what he was getting into. Maybe he used it for parts, I don't know.

The weapon headspaced properly before shooting, and after 20 rounds, closed easily on a field gauge.

In my opinion the gun would never be right, and I don't think that's a good thing for a gun to be. Not mine anyway.

Gunplumber may be a dick, but his message on this one is correct.

How would one tell if their receiver is heattreated properly? Is there any way to get the crucial areas tested?

I haven't seen any pricks on my receiver.

Now I feel that I should go re-check the headspace on my build. GREAT!

Sorry if I caused confusion with the picture of the bolt carrier to receiver mating on the left side. This is completely different than the mushrooming of the lug channel that PULLTHRU mentioned, although I have both issues on MY build. I wasn't sure if the bolt carrier gap could in anyway lead to headspace growing-Todd has indicated not, and I can respect that, just looking for cause and effect issues related to the build process, not faulting the receiver at this point.
I can say that even though I attempted to correct uneven contact between the left and right bolt lugs, by dressing down the right lug, I must have duffed it on my first go round as the right lug and channel only show contact. I still need to shot it with the new second bolt that took considerable dressing to get what I think is even contact. Headspace is good. I'm going to spray the bolt lugs with Dykem befor I shoot it and check it often to see if a pattern shows even contact.

Todd, please lighten up, this could all be part of the build process that we home builders are missing or screwing up. I know this whole deal is a pain in the ass, but you are making the receivers available for recreational builders to build on. If we're F'ing up, all I ask for is for some tips. No moore or less.

Another thing that occured to me is that is it possible that the receivers aren't soft, only that they're softer than the bolt lugs. I don't know if anyone has ever checked bolt hardness, but if the bolt is harder than the receiver, then the softer of the two is going to show the effects. Headspace errors and uneven contact in the lugs can only aggrivate this if true. Just something else to think about in terms of growing headspace issues.

Bolt carrier to receiver gap doesn't seem to be consistant through the AK family, as Todd suggested, I checked several different AK's and they ranged from spot even, to gap left or right side depending on what model. (measured w/ feeler gauge)
Although the Galil was larger than any, the 12 ga @.027 would be showing something if it was a factor as it gets used a lot, including slugs.

ORF Galil .076" Gap LH
Saiga 12 .027" Gap RH
Romy G(x2) both dead even
Romy WASR even
Yugo M92 .025" Gap LH
Yugo M70 .030" Gap LH
Tantal >.010" Gap RH

Other Galil makers (non-ORF receiver) would be nice to benchmark how different galils spec out in this area and possibly end that debate.

****please remember, this is bolt carrier to receiver gap and has nothing to do with bolt lugs to channels/ headspace****

Last thing I have concerns fitting bolt lugs/headspace is from the notes I made when fitting the second bolt (New or VGC stripped bolt from Sarco Inc). It required me to remove .030" more from the right bolt lug to get even contact between left and right side lugs. This involved several passes against a mircometer adjustable grinding stone fixture, followed by a light coat of titanium white on the bolt lugs, then test fitting and checking for contact marks. After even contact was made, equal amounts were removed from left and right bolt lugs until bolt just closed on a go gauge. As soon as the weather breaks, I'm going to start running some rounds and see if the issue is gone.
I just posted this as a reference as to what I did, the receiver was a early 2007 ORF, made for Century.
**Note, this was on the second bolt installed. RH bolt channel area had some slight mushrooming at this point (enough to almost close on a field gauge), so I don't know how the .030" additional removed from the right bolt lug would compare to fitting to a virgin receiver***

Time for me to step down and read feedback, I don't think I have any other observations, or area's of concern on mine.

DS,
As I said, no ill will towards USGI. Thought the thread as you laid it out was, owners, builders, and what they encountered and we were getting rid of the "theory" folks. Jump me all you like, these opinions by people and some gunsmiths are just that. Plenty of good ones know what there doing and building LOTS of great Galils.
USGI,
As I said, no ill will. You took the effort to read here, so I was wandering how in all our ads you missed the fact they were billet machined. And yes billet to cast "IMHO" is always the best. I have seen 1, yes 1 billet we've cut have a pore in its side. You'll never be 100% sure what lies underneath in castings and forgings.
Mustang 6500 and others,
Your following exactly what I have been saying. If the bolt does not contact both sides 100%, ones gonna give, don't care how hard it is RC wise. GPs and others builds that this was never looked at or checked, and now they mushroom and loose headspace, thats why, bolts done seated and now headspace is long. I went to push a VZ58 barrel out today, piece of A2 hardened to about 50rc, I was not lined up on it 100%, pressed with our 20ton H, and it bent. Tried it again with a new piece, took my time made sure I had full contact, and it came out without bending, damn was it in there though, hell of a pop to break loose.

Todd@ORF

DS,
As I said, no ill will towards USGI. Thought the thread as you laid it out was, owners, builders, and what they encountered and we were getting rid of the "theory" folks. Jump me all you like, these opinions by people and some gunsmiths are just that. Plenty of good ones know what there doing and building LOTS of great Galils.
USGI,
As I said, no ill will. You took the effort to read here, so I was wandering how in all our ads you missed the fact they were billet machined. And yes billet to cast "IMHO" is always the best. I have seen 1, yes 1 billet we've cut have a pore in its side. You'll never be 100% sure what lies underneath in castings and forgings.
Mustang 6500 and others,
Your following exactly what I have been saying. If the bolt does not contact both sides 100%, ones gonna give, don't care how hard it is RC wise. GPs and others builds that this was never looked at or checked, and now they mushroom and loose headspace, thats why, bolts done seated and now headspace is long. I went to push a VZ58 barrel out today, piece of A2 hardened to about 50rc, I was not lined up on it 100%, pressed with our 20ton H, and it bent. Tried it again with a new piece, took my time made sure I had full contact, and it came out without bending, damn was it in there though, hell of a pop to break loose.

Todd@ORF
How do we achieve, ensuring both bolt lugs have the correct amount of contact with left and right locking surfaces in the receiver ?

If one side is not contacting , why would that be and what would be the procedure for rectifying the problem.
Thank you.

Todd, I try to remain impartial in ALL my dealings on AK Files regardless what my personal feelings might be (its a lil tough at times LOL), I jumped ya as opposed to deleting your previous posts, this thread was setup specifically so that you and your customers can discuss this issue and hopfully everyone ends up satisfied as I see this being the only way this bickering and name calling etc.. can be brought to an end.

I asked that folks contributing to this thread stick with facts and valid ideas (rather than smart ass crap that will not help anyone) ANYONE can feel free to offer any suggestions or ideas, we have a very diverse group here on the files many who are very capable of helping with finding a resolution..... Basically a huge think tank at your fingertips....... some comments might have already been considered in the past, just like the 20 or so e-mails I get every week asking the same build questions I've answered on at least 5 forums already... rather than get an attitude I simply go through the same answers one more time cause ya know what...... that person might not have visited one of those forums or I send em links to the info....

you are going to see some of the same suggestions or theory's (thats how builders think and if ya think bout every project you have ever introduced... did it not start with a few guys bouncing theorys around or did you simply wake up one morning with the FCG rework etc.. all in your head? doubtful, usually involves ALOT of theory until the workable solution comes along) in this thread that might have already been covered in that 12 page monstrosity, don't assume everyone has read every page of that thread, all the bickering turns most readers off right away so they end up going into skimming mode...... this thread will be very closely moderated and will not be allowed to veer off of its intended goal which is to help these members who might have a problem with their receiver.......

That being said lets keep it on track people, from this post forward all posts must contain no name calling or personal attacks, I will not waste my time editing those posts they will simply vanish, if I have to make too many vanish then the person responsible will most likely vanish themselves....

Now on with the thread....... anyone who has any ideas or info feel free to share them, Todd ya might have to repeat stuff ya have already posted elswhere one more time but that should be all as I expect anyone to READ previouse posts first to see if what ya are about to post might already have been covered rather than ask the same thing over and over, if your looking for additional info about something thats been posted PLEASE quote the comment you are seeking clarification on to help keep things clear and by doing so it will not look like you are asking the same exact question thats already been answered etc...

Hopefully I can stay outa it from here on out and ya'll can discuss this issue ......... but I will be watching ;)

The locking lug recesses on the receiver I returned to ORF were noticeably uneven. A new bolt held against the left recess would "rock" when pressure was then exerted on the right lug of the bolt. Not a lot you can do here. There was no way in He** that I was going to remove material from the bolt. The way I see it the engineers designed that bolt with a certain thickness and a certain hardness. Screwing with that could cause some problems.

"Armscorp M14NM/ M21 receivers do the exact same thing. The bolt rocks if you can get the bolt to rotate fully into battery at all.

In the Armscorp the left bolt lug must be modified to fit and get the thing to work properly and it is not a problem or a deal breaker. A shallow precision grinding operation will not significantly effect the heat treatment of a bolt locking lug.

Grinding/lapping both lugs is the only way to headspace a Chrome lined GI barrel. On match barrels we lap lugs for contact using a non embedding compound and then use a Clymer pull through match reamer.

On any newly mated receiver barrel bolt combination one will experience some slight set back/ increase of headspace upon first firing. Headspace should not grow significantly after that."

Yes but modifying one of the lug contact areas would open up the headspace wouldn't it? It all comes down to how much you need to lap it/grind it/etc. On that receiver the gap was visible and the rocking of the bolt pretty significant. It might have been made to work but I just wasn't going to take the potential risk of having a wall hanger. Maybe this is what PullThru is seeing? Was his bolt or recesses lapped/modified to take into account the uneven surfaces?

I bought three New bolts (IMI), so had four , including the one in the kit.

I was previously under the impression, that setting headspace was a function of "linear"---adjustment, as opposed to additionally adjusting, a bit on the left and a bit on the right etc.on the back of the bolt. I had no choice in this case, to ensure contact on both receiver lugs. I relieved the rear bolt lug surface.
Once it was set, there was no measurable gap either side. After the initial 30 or so rounds fired, left side had .003" measurable gap and the right side still had full contact.---But it did have, the newly developed "Public Confusion" lump on top of the receiver right locking shoulder.
This happened in early 2005 I believe. Manufacturer informed me a while back, "it's shooting in, ----It'll settle down".

Well I just re-checked the headspace on my Galil build, and it closes on the NOGO. I spent a lot of money on a new IMI barrell, so Im quite angry right now. What is my recourse at this point??

Well I just re-checked the headspace on my Galil build, and it closes on the NOGO. I spent a lot of money on a new IMI barrell, so Im quite angry right now. What is my recourse at this point??

Welcome to the club. If you look closely at the right bolt locking surface on the receiver you will probably see some distortion. I could feel it with my finger. My ejector also showed visible rounding and distortion.

None of this is normal, nor acceptable. Junk.

My barrel was new IMI also, and not cheap....

To Todd's credit he did try to swap bolts and fix the growing headspace problem. But the issue is the receiver machining and hardness. Can't fix that.

Perhaps the Manufacturer is considering a Recall Notice to properly investigate the issue ?. As no answers or reasons appear to be forthcoming on what is causing these issues and no official remedy in sight, it would certainly illustrate the Manufacturer really values the customer and supports shooter safety.

Well.....I shot an email to Mark Graham aka Gunplumber regarding this issue. This was prior to reading the other thread that wsa 12 pages long and his responses. Needless to say his response was a curt one sentence, and not what I wanted to hear.

So I basically have a $1000 conversation piece instead of the Galil I always wanted. Great! I attempted to email Todd at ORF, but there wasnt even an email address posted on his website (that I could find). Now what?? Anyone?

OH just for information....The rounds that have gone through this rifle were a mix of South African surplus, and Q3131 Israeli made Winchester. Just plain old 55 gr stock.

I've ran nothing but Sellier & Bellot FMG 55 grain, and I think the advertised twist rate on the GM barrel is 1 in 7". Good or Bad? Accuracy is 1 minute of clay on the berm at 75 yards all day long.
Can someone check me on the Green Mountain barrel twist rate?
I have to say, it doesn't feel like a hot round shooting but I'll check the link.
Also, has anyone given any thought to hardness of receiver, relative to bolt hardness?

I thought about the hardness of the bolt relative to the receiver. Im no expert, but Im no fool either. I really dont beleive that a harder bolt would be a problem IF the receiver was the proper hardness.

At any rate accuracy was outstanding with open sights at 100 yards. That is why I am truely upset by this. Im telling ya guys....I really feel like i got my d*ck knocked in the dirt by this situation. I just cant get over the fact that a brand new IMI barrell is utterly worthless now, even if the rest of the rifle is salvagable.

Would someone please advise what to do at this juncture? I am one of many in the same situation.

Something I thought of that has not been addressed so far. Are you guys that are checking your head space using USGI 5.56x45 gauges or SAAMI gauges? I don't know, I don't pretend to know, but I have heard that they are different and will give different results.

Certianly this is not a reason for the deformation or wear? but it could be an explanation for the head space being wrong. It of course gives no explanation as to why that head space may be GROWING.

-myers

Something I thought of that has not been addressed so far. Are you guys that are checking your head space using USGI 5.56x45 gauges or SAAMI gauges? I don't know, I don't pretend to know, but I have heard that they are different and will give different results.

Certianly this is not a reason for the deformation or wear? but it could be an explanation for the head space being wrong. It of course gives no explanation as to why that head space may be GROWING.

-myers
You are right myers it should not be GROWING.
FWIW i am gauging headspace by way of Clymer .223 GO and NOGO gauges. You should not have to resort to a FIELD gauge on a new build.

O.K We have some very good tech help (thank you USGI, BTW seems I recall bout 80% of that as comming right outa the Armorers manual LOL) I'm going to sticky this thread as most of the questions members ask regarding these receivers are answered right here in a no BS manner, this might be depressing for some, I think one idea as the manufacturer is choosing to not step up and make good on these receivers that perhaps a few of you could start contacting a reputable smith who would be willing to take on the job and has the resources or connections to #1 true up the receivers to bring them in spec #2 get them properly heat treated this shop would need to be able to properly heat treat in house or make arrangments to have a proffesional firm that specializes in firearms handle the heat treating, perhaps this Smith could setup some form of group deal so that all members can tear down their rifles and send in the stripped receivers to be corrected for one flat rate each provided enough got together so that the smith could send in say 10 receivers at a time to be heat treated etc.... Just a thought ya'll might consider as opposed to having an expensive dummy gun

It is a commonly held myth promulgated by gun writers in magazines like Field and Stream that locking shoulders do set back (for Magnum and Weatherby and hot wildcat cartridges etc it is somewhat true but these weapons have hotter than normal cartridges and dramatically shorter component life than military small arms) but it is simply not true for normal small arms used by military forces and clones of such small arms that locking shoulders "set back".

This is an incomplete statement. YOu must differentiate between "locking shoulders" as a description of an area of a milled receiver (for which your statement is correct), and "locking shoulder" as a part seperate from the receiver, such as found on the SKS, FAL/L1A1, FN-49, etc. In these rifles, the locking shoulder setback is an absolute reality, thoroughly documented, expected, and taken into consideration when setting the headpace. It is also, typically, around 0.0005".

It is a commonly held myth promulgated by gun writers in magazines like Field and Stream that locking shoulders do set back (for Magnum and Weatherby and hot wildcat cartridges etc it is somewhat true but these weapons have hotter than normal cartridges and dramatically shorter component life than military small arms) but it is simply not true for normal small arms used by military forces and clones of such small arms that locking shoulders "set back".

This is an incomplete statement. YOu must differentiate between "locking shoulders" as a description of an area of a milled receiver (for which your statement is correct), and "locking shoulder" as a part seperate from the receiver, such as found on the SKS, FAL/L1A1, FN-49, etc. In these rifles, the locking shoulder setback is an absolute reality, thoroughly documented, expected, and taken into consideration when setting the headpace. It is also, typically, around 0.0005".

Part or most of the reason for this I think is the steel that was used in those receivers was originally not the modern high strength alloy's. The receivers were only hardened in certain high wear area's and left soft in other area's to prevent brittleness and cracking. The "softer" area's of the receiver would allow some "give" which allows some movement or settling of the locking shoulder. The Browning beltfed sideplates are only hardened on the rear inch or so. With modern alloy's like 4140 there is enough strength and "toughness" that it can be completely hardened without the need for "soft" area's. Also could be in part because there is another part (locking shoulder) included in the pieces.

Same thing happened to me. I guess, because I had to "modify" many things, I have to eat the cost of the ORF receiver... or at least the IMI barrel. Maybe one day, I'll figure out how to get the receiver fixed. Then install a new barrel. Looks like it will have to be NOT chrome-linned to get it to work with the new situation.

Guys,
Gonna have multiple posts here to address as many of these as I can stand to read and respond to this eve, sorry I am tired and I do my posting at night and in my free time, so if its short, sorry.
Todd@ORF
Perhaps the Manufacturer is considering a Recall Notice to properly investigate the issue ?. As no answers or reasons appear to be forthcoming on what is causing these issues and no official remedy in sight, it would certainly illustrate the Manufacturer really values the customer and supports shooter safety.
Pullthru,
Nope, I have seen several builders builds now, have seen where they have gone wrong. I have posted on how to headspace, how to do the build, I have not but am working on our own tutorial for the our site on building a Galil.

Todd@ORF

Something I thought of that has not been addressed so far. Are you guys that are checking your head space using USGI 5.56x45 gauges or SAAMI gauges? I don't know, I don't pretend to know, but I have heard that they are different and will give different results.

Certianly this is not a reason for the deformation or wear? but it could be an explanation for the head space being wrong. It of course gives no explanation as to why that head space may be GROWING.

-myers
Myers,
Yes there are a few thousandths difference in the two 556 to 223 Rem and all the GM barrels are 223 Rem. So there is .002 you can loose right away in headspace and as I believe it was USGI posted you can loose .003 from a new build in seating in. GP confirmed it in the FAL, but we'll not go there. If I am not mistaking, I do not have my guages here at home but from Go to Field in .223 Rem is only .008"(someone can correct me).

So the above is .005 you can loose off the bat, a bad build you can loose plenty more, leading to the mushroomed shoulders if the bolt was never matched (I think it was again USGI that confirmed its common practice) than you can loose whatever was there too, lets say in a case .007 was missed, now your .012 over, thats .004 over field and your gonna be spliting cases, have stuck rounds etc.

Todd@ORF

You are right myers it should not be GROWING.
FWIW i am gauging headspace by way of Clymer .223 GO and NOGO gauges. You should not have to resort to a FIELD gauge on a new build.
Sophicles,
Field still is a guage needed in the build process. Ok, it does not "close" on No Go, you saying that is ok? Did you check it bolt in or out of carrier as most do in carrier which I NEVER suggest. We'll say in carrier as one great one here does, how did you see how much the bolt did not go into battery? You didn't and you can't. Heres where the field guage comes into play in this method, now you can check how far from no go to field you are, again only seeing how far the carrier will seat.

Now all three guages in the method we use. Go bolt should rotate firmly into battery with finger pressure, thats about 95% up the left lug (easiest IMO to check with cut feeler guages if need be, you can see contact by eye on the right), no go check should just start to engage the lugs, maybe 30% contact, field will not go at all. Now torque your barrel in at 130FtLBS. Go goes right down to about 90%, but it will chamber and fire fine. Its gonna seat and now handcheck fine, this method will not checkout using a carrier with the guages, but will after firing a few rounds.

Todd@ORF

Welcome to the club. If you look closely at the right bolt locking surface on the receiver you will probably see some distortion. I could feel it with my finger. My ejector also showed visible rounding and distortion.

None of this is normal, nor acceptable. Junk.

My barrel was new IMI also, and not cheap....

To Todd's credit he did try to swap bolts and fix the growing headspace problem. But the issue is the receiver machining and hardness. Can't fix that.
Miller,
I never heard back from you on your issue. Yes I sent a bolt that was fatter on the right as you said you needed. I don't think I ever asked either who did the build? If you or someone else have you checked any of the build points I posted in building the gun?

Todd@ORF

Sophicles,
Field still is a guage needed in the build process. Ok, it does not "close" on No Go, you saying that is ok? Did you check it bolt in or out of carrier as most do in carrier which I NEVER suggest. We'll say in carrier as one great one here does, how did you see how much the bolt did not go into battery? You didn't and you can't. Heres where the field guage comes into play in this method, now you can check how far from no go to field you are, again only seeing how far the carrier will seat.

Now all three guages in the method we use. Go bolt should rotate firmly into battery with finger pressure, thats about 95% up the left lug (easiest IMO to check with cut feeler guages if need be, you can see contact by eye on the right), no go check should just start to engage the lugs, maybe 30% contact, field will not go at all. Now torque your barrel in at 130FtLBS. Go goes right down to about 90%, but it will chamber and fire fine. Its gonna seat and now handcheck fine, this method will not checkout using a carrier with the guages, but will after firing a few rounds.

Todd@ORF
You are right. I used the carrier to check headspace. It looks as though I was wrong in my technique. Is there anything I can do to salvage this as it sits? I know you are busy with these reponses, so if its easier Ill take my response by PM or email. Thank you for addressing this issue thus far

Well I just re-checked the headspace on my Galil build, and it closes on the NOGO. I spent a lot of money on a new IMI barrell, so Im quite angry right now. What is my recourse at this point??
Sophicles,
Just caught this post, refer to mine above, no go is still ok to shoot, past field I would never recommend.

Todd@ORF

Guys,
I think thats it for me this eve, still gotta hit www.THEAkForum.net the former Akforum.net

Sophicles,
My email is TGrove1293@aol.com

Todd@ORF

Sophicles,
Just caught this post, refer to mine above, no go is still ok to shoot, past field I would never recommend.

Todd@ORF

Guys,
I think thats it for me this eve, still gotta hit www.THEAkForum.net the former Akforum.net

Closing on a No Go gauge may well be safe to shoot but it is a sign that there are headspace issues that need to be addressed.
If a firearm has gone from just closing on a Go gauge, to closing on a No Go gauge within a few hundred rounds, then there is a problem somewhere - be it in the build, using incorrect measuring techniques, or the actual materials used in manufacture.
That a number of people have experienced the same issues tends to preclude the first two possibilities, so the alternatives must be considered.

The difference in SAAMI Go and military Go guages is less than .001" one thou. The difference between SAAMI No-Go and military No-Go is .003" three thou. So a rifle could over SAAMI No-Go and with in military No-Go.

Question for Todd Grove:

You say that all the Century Builds are having no problems with the shoulder , headspace or anything else and you make the statement, that all people who have these problems have built the Rifle badly: I guess you think we're all unskilled idiots ?.---As opposed to being part of your customer base.

However, think I read a while back, maybe the other thread, that you've produced three versions or stages of the Galil receiver.
Question; Are these receivers the exact same receivers that were sold to Century Arms or are they receivers from an earlier stage? If so, what was the distinguishing differences from stage 1 to stage 3 to justify the "stages".

I went back and attatched progressive pieces of masking tape to the rear of my NOGO until it would not close. This ended up being 3 pieces. Scientific? No. But it did give an idea of where the bolt headspace is at this point.

I have used this meathod to determine where Enfield rifles are in lieu of buying a .303 FIELD gauge. At any rate do I continue to shoot this weapon and hope that it doesnt open up further?

I went back and attatched progressive pieces of masking tape to the rear of my NOGO until it would not close. This ended up being 3 pieces. Scientific? No. But it did give an idea of where the bolt headspace is at this point.

I have used this method to determine where Enfield rifles are in lieu of buying a .303 FIELD gauge. At any rate do I continue to shoot this weapon and hope that it doesnt open up further?What I've done in the past is butcher a set of feeler guages, you can slice up the .001", .0015" and a few thicker ones easily into different shapes with a scissors.
This is how I determined both my lugs were in FULL contatct after I built it. Also, I found a strong directional light scource useful. If You can't see the light,--there is no gap.
The feeler guage gives you measurable numbers and used in conjunction with Headspace guages, and maybe dummy rounds Of known dimensions, provides, I feel , a more meaningful understanding of the state of things.

Bit like a relationship , no matter what BS comes across table ; YOU know the truth, because you have NUMBERS , specifics, details etc.

Use guages if you can, good luck.

On shooting it , don't have any clue. Mine is supposedly still "shooting in",
so I'm tempted to buy a few cases of ammo and go blast the lot one weekend,---just to see the result.


If it closes on a no guage, I wouldn't.

What I tend to do, not to add too many variables with feeler guage piece on the base of a Headspace Guage or Inert round (of known dimension), is add a bit of spit . Enough adhesion for the very light weight of feeler guage steel. Got to be careful not to lose it on removal though.

No !, I don't lick the case and my spit ain't sticky.

Now some guys are using E clips to hold FCG pins instead of the GI hooks or aftermarker sheet metal pin retainers. If one of those E clips were to pop loose and get itself loaded ahead of a cartridge the results could be disastrous.

True...

But I still use e-clips...

And I don't worry...

:)

Forrest

Pullthru,
Don't know were you got it that I called anyone an idiot. I simply have explained what to look for and have seen several builds now done wrong. And yes there the same recs as sold to Century.
1st recs were ran on the vertical machining centers, which these had some slight issues, in a vertical you machine one setup/side at a time, in all approx 20 setups
2nd ones were ran on the horizontals, horizontals we can machine 3 sides, each side to any 1 degree, combined the ops down to 5 now, then also these are non AR mag well cut
3rd are same as above but ar mag well adapter cut
Century rec'd I think without looking 1600 2s and 3700 3s so far.
Only 3rd version in 223 is produced now, then we do the 762x39s, 308s, and we will be pulling off the 545s this month.

Todd@ORF

USGI : VERY valid info., and you're right. If you listen and believe all the big name Manufacturers and read the Specs. they comply with: everything should be perfect ! .---but it's far from perfect, as we all know.

Despite their Quality Systems , S.P.C.( Statistical Process Control), Hoards of S.Q.A. (supplier Quality Assurance) Personnel , Laboratories and Equipment ,ALL, repeat ALL companies turn out defective products on occasions, some, more than others. That's just a fact of life.

So Todd, back to you. Are you REALLY saying you produce a perfect product 100% of the time ? (I have the Guinness Book of Records on Hold !).

I recently returned an Alternator from my Daughters Car to the Nissan Dealer, (Factory Part)--they exchanged it , when told it was faulty. They didn't refuse, due to the fact I had fitted it, and not them.

You do get the point Todd, don't you ?

So Todd, back to you. Are you REALLY saying you produce a perfect product 100% of the time ? (I have the Guinness Book of Records on Hold !).

You do get the point Todd, don't you ?

Pullthru and USGI,
Both of you have gotten off track in your last posts, were talking Galils, not cars, or laptops, Galils are the point here fellas. Yes I feel our product can be assembled into a perfect product by someone that knows what they are doing. I have never said my rec is 100% IMI, its not and never will be, not gonna get into why. It is 100% Galil! As I have said the builds that have been sent to me, have build errors, plain and simple, and I have posted what to look for, how to assemble, etc, to get past the majority of any issues you'll have.

Todd@ORF

We're getting very Circular on this : OK, one more time. When I built /assembled the ORF Receiver into a Galil I used Headspace guages and feeler guage blades to establish correct Headspace. Bolt lug contact, --left and right was established and even. A .001" feeler blade would not pass between either side.

Bolt would close on a "go" guage with firm thumb pressure. Bolt would not close on a "no go" guage.
Rifle was test fired succesfully and groups were good. I was Happy .
Cleaned Rifle : Noticed the now famous, "Public confusion lump"----.

Odd I thought: started looking , checking and measuring.
A .0040" feeler blade was now able to pass between the left bolt lug and the left receiver locking shoulder. The swell of metal on the top of the receiver right rail could be felt and seen.
Bolt closed on "no go" guage.

So, what did I do wrong ??. What is the remedy, how can it be rectified, is it safe to shoot.

Same questions for how long ?,--2 or 3 years now.

Just want an answer Todd,----and not the " it's just shooting in,--it'll settle down".
You can be a little more technical if you like. I might just be able to understand it .

Growing head space seems to be the overwhelming issue, some have also stated problems w/ ejector wear. This is all the thread should be about, not Todds buisness ethics. We with problems need to make a case built on facts only, not other unrelated stuff. I'm under the impression that there is an issue, but I have to PROVE it by facts. If Todd states that it's not related to his receiver, he has a wealth of talent between himself and his staff to give specific examples of what was done improperly. That's all I expect. It would be great if they had examples of the growing headspace issue where they couldn't explain it by build problems, but I don't think that's going to happen without concrete evidance from someone outside ORF. This is where we need to get our shit straight and right...everything else is irrealivant, We are a very diversed group, that is our strength...look at the problem, possibly looking outside the box, and see what we come up with.
The ORF tutorial would be great, but my bet is that it will never happen since this has been going on for over a year, and in short, if you do the build step by step as dictated in THEIR tutorial, and the problem still occures, they've kind of chopped of their own dick, and I don't see that happining, or it would have already been done. Why as a business owner would you allow a product to be dragged through the dirt for over a year on several trade forums if you were truely confident in your product? That's one of the biggest statements that makes me uneasy. A quality tutorial from a company with the technical know how and connections that ORF has would be a matter of a few days work in reality vs answering endless negative posts. It just doesn't make good business sense to me.

Pullthru,
I do not have your gun in my hands now do I? No, so I cannot check it out, nor actually explore how you assembled the gun. So, I have no clue in your case I guess till I see it, see how it was assembled etc. Everything above here and in the other thread was a how to, and I think you mentioned GPs method with the carrier which I suggest is wrong. And many other things he points out are not needed. But you choose your answer there. As you stated before, you had a gun of mine, did not like some FEATURES, never shot it, sent it back and got a complete refund. Thats standing behind a product, 100% money back if that was your question earlier. Built piece, I'll check it, and I have yet to see a rec fail, none of my builds have and again were now doing them in 308 and that test piece has over 5600 rounds (yeah pricey shooting there). 308 is alot more load than 223, eh' USGI? So?

Todd@ORF

Pullthru,
I do not have your gun in my hands now do I? No, so I cannot check it out, nor actually explore how you assembled the gun. So, I have no clue in your case I guess till I see it, see how it was assembled etc. Everything above here and in the other thread was a how to, and I think you mentioned GPs method with the carrier which I suggest is wrong. And many other things he points out are not needed. But you choose your answer there. As you stated before, you had a gun of mine, did not like some FEATURES, never shot it, sent it back and got a complete refund. Thats standing behind a product, 100% money back if that was your question earlier. Built piece, I'll check it, and I have yet to see a rec fail, none of my builds have and again were now doing them in 308 and that test piece has over 5600 rounds (yeah pricey shooting there). 308 is alot more load than 223, eh' USGI? So?

Todd@ORFNever said anything to my knowledge about GPs Carrier method. I worked with the Bolt, barrel and receiver.
Yes I had a Gun of yours, since you bring it up : Features ? : Safety lever Missing (optional extra ?), AK Trigger Guard/mag release ?, Hammer falls when trigger squeezed with right side safety lever in "safe" position. Finish wiping off in areas with Gun oil ? ----Yeh, your right, didn't like those features.
Didn't shoot it, ---to right I didn't shoot it, the way the safety mechanism "functioned",--why would I ?
Yes you refunded the Money . Once again, Thank you.

So how exactly do you "post mortem" Rifle assembly. We're essentially talking about screwing a Barrel into a receiver the correct distance, torquing it down and ensuring the bolt face is at the correct distance from a chambered round/ headspace guage. How many ways is there to do that ?

Not forgetting of course checking bolt lug contact.

USGI: Thanks for the input. I've not got any chamber pressure issues or anything along the lines you mention. Only fired 55grn.. some RSA ex Military but mostly the remington 223 yellow box. In total, probably under 300 rounds.

Primers look ok. Once I noticed something going on, I pre- measured some ammo, got a couple of dozen that were dimensionally close, fired them,collected the cases and remeasured.

I've owned numerous Enfields (only one left now) , Garands, M1 carbines, FNfal, AR15s, AR10 (original DUTCH manuactured), HK 91s, 93s, Mauser 98, , Musgrave, Remington, Weatherby, SAKO, Tikka,, Winchester Galils (IMI & LEW RSA). Have never had,or seen this kind of problem with any of them in the 39years I been messing around with Guns.

Pullthru and USGI,

Both of you have gotten off track in your last posts, we're talking Galils, not cars, or laptops, Galils are the point here fellas. <b><font color=red>Yes I feel our product can be assembled into a perfect product by someone that knows what they are doing.</b></font> I have never said my rec is 100% IMI, its not and never will be, not gonna get into why. It is 100% Galil! As I have said the builds that have been sent to me, have build errors, plain and simple, and I have posted what to look for, how to assemble, etc, to get past the majority of any issues you'll have.

Todd@ORF





So how exactly do you "post mortem" Rifle assembly. We're essentially talking about screwing a Barrel into a receiver the correct distance, torquing it down and ensuring the bolt face is at the correct distance from a chambered round/ headspace guage. How many ways is there to do that ?





PULLTHRU,

I agree.

Now let me ask Todd how his comment quoted above relates to the build quality of my Galil AR that was built at Rapid Fire?

After several people tried to get my rifle on target we noticed that the front sight was tilted off to the right. I took it to a gunsmith I know and asked him if he could fix it. He suggested I send the rifle back. I called your place and spoke to the man who said he was in the store. He told me he did not handle my kind of problems and I needed to speak to you. He said he would leave a message. After a few days I called again and was told by some girl that she would also leave a message. I never heard back from anyone.

Figuring I had been blown off I took my rifle to a local gun builder to see if he could fix it. The same day I dropped it off, the man who owns the shop called me back and asked me to stop by and pick it up. When I got there he handed me the rifle in pieces. The photos that were taken by the gunsmith at his shop show what they found.



http://i29.tinypic.com/21jqej7.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/f2lci1.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/29xc4rm.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/2qjwvuq.jpg


The shop discovered that when my rifle was assembled the barrel threads had been cut or ground off and then the barrel was pressed into the threaded receiver using a cross pin to attempt to hold it in place.

The opinion of the guy at the shop was that my Galil's barrel was not correctly installed when it was built. He then said there was nothing he could do for me.


Did the person who built my Galil know what he was doing?

.

with regard to the last picture, could you please measure the depth of the barrel pin groove relative to the chamber - it looks pretty thin in that area

Pullthru,
and I think you mentioned GPs method with the carrier which I suggest is wrong.

Todd@ORF

I suggest it is "wrong" that a factory IMI bolt carrier not fit in your receiver without modifying one or the other.

Nick F: Frankly, I'm speechless after seeing those Pics.


Can't wait to read the reason behind this "Build". Maybe this is a "Forth Genereation" ORF Galil.

Hell, and I thought the one I built had problems. I hope you get you're $$ back or a replacement Rifle.

Nick F..I can salvage that build.I've got a Ridgid pipe threader,and with a little luck,we can chase those threads to maybe 3/4 NPT tapered.Now,you might have to convert to .22 long rifle,maybe get a mag adapter and new bolt carrier,but hey! You'd have a...GALIL!!

Well I shot my rifle today, 300 rounds through the gun with no noticeable issues with the exception of some stovepipeing. Wear looks normal, no mushrooming from what I can see.

I had an issue with a round that failed to extract and my bolt tried to chamber the next round, I ejected it and the bullet was pushed all the way in to the casing. This was lake city.

Maybe it was because I was using Wolf? I had no problems with the first couple mags with stovepipes until I used other ammo after using Wolf. What causes stovepipes?

Rifles really accurate and barely any recoil at all.

There was an issue with the height of the magazine catch relative to the rails on all the guns I built. I had to weld the mag catch to make it longer. Do your feed touch the rails or is there a gap?

I have a few questions about the ORF receiver.

First question specifically addressed to ORF,

I have been offered a micro GALIL receiver made by ORF. It is brand new, never installed. The seller still has the paperwork from when he bought it from you last year. The serial number is listed on the receipt but neither I nor the current owner can find a serial number on the receiver. Where on the receiver is the SN# located?

Second, addressed to everyone,

I am not in any way an expert on GALILs, but have been following this thread mainly because I am seriously considering buying this receiver sometime soon. It seems to me that possibly a GALIL build is not something for the casual AK builder? Is it possible that the problems attributed to the ORF receivers can be completely avoided by having a good gunsmith with experience in these type pf builds do the work?

I have been offered a micro GALIL receiver made by ORF. It is brand new, never installed. The seller still has the paperwork from when he bought it from you last year. The serial number is listed on the receipt but neither I nor the current owner can find a serial number on the receiver. Where on the receiver is the SN# located?

It has been a while since we last had an ORF micro-Galil receiver in the shop and I can't remember exactly where the SN was stamped but it's there...

It's just so faint that you have to look the receiver over very carefully to see it.

I'm sure that the marking does not meet current requirements for legibility.

Take a magnifying glass and look it over very carefully and you're find the SN. Ask me how I know...

Forrest

I spent an hour looking at it with a loupe and couldn't see anything. Ill go back over it with a better magnifying glass tomorrow.

Thanks.

Masek,
If its still a bare rec, its on the front left. If its been parked, either alittle oil or spit helps, if its been koted, the kote may be covering it up.
Forrest,
The req is .003 in depth and we do meet that std on the recs.

Todd@ORF

Thanks Todd....

Masek,
If its still a bare rec, its on the front left. If its been parked, either alittle oil or spit helps, if its been koted, the kote may be covering it up.
Forrest,
The req is .003 in depth and we do meet that std on the recs.

Todd@ORF

The receiver that I'm thinking of here was parked and, as Todd says, a little liquid will help to make it legible...

Also as Todd mentions, if it's been painted in any way, all bets are off in terms of trying to find it. That comment can apply even to ones that are quite deeply stamped...

Forrest

Well I shot my rifle today, 300 rounds through the gun with no noticeable issues with the exception of some stovepipeing. Wear looks normal, no mushrooming from what I can see.

I had an issue with a round that failed to extract and my bolt tried to chamber the next round, I ejected it and the bullet was pushed all the way in to the casing. This was lake city.

Maybe it was because I was using Wolf? I had no problems with the first couple mags with stovepipes until I used other ammo after using Wolf. What causes stovepipes?

Rifles really accurate and barely any recoil at all.

Reading this really makes me upset, because I loved that rifle. I know that sounds corny but it was very accurate with just the irons, and like you said little recoil. As most know Im an LEO, and my sarg went with me on the first trip out. He was so impressed with it that he offered to buy it on the spot. Of course I declined.

I went through a lot of effort (and expense) to get this project rifle where I wanted it. I ordered a new IMI forearm and barrel, and sent the receiver off to be engraved with the correct Hebrew markings for the selector as well as the IMI crest. When I look at it now I just get sick thinking of the money I sunk in it especially on my salary.

Reading this really makes me upset, because I loved that rifle. I know that sounds corny but it was very accurate with just the irons, and like you said little recoil. As most know Im an LEO, and my sarg went with me on the first trip out. He was so impressed with it that he offered to buy it on the spot. Of course I declined.

I went through a lot of effort (and expense) to get this project rifle where I wanted it. I ordered a new IMI forearm and barrel, and sent the receiver off to be engraved with the correct Hebrew markings for the selector as well as the IMI crest. When I look at it now I just get sick thinking of the money I sunk in it especially on my salary.

Well, there are a few things I can think of that were causing issues. When I fieldstripped the rifle, it was really dirty. The gas piston was covered in some grey stuff and the gas tube was completely black. Some people think it was the wolf ammo mixed with left over cosmoline that wasn't cleaned out. Maybe this was causing the bolt carrier to not be able to travel very well? When I cleaned it (took a few hours), the bolt carrier is really smooth now. I didn't really clean it before going to the range except the barrel. I'm also using a dry lube (eezox) so maybe that has something to do with it, not sure. The first 110 shots were fine though without any issues. I uploaded a video of me shooting it at the range.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MJnoQHoO2F4

It could really be a variety of things, most of these rifles are using beat up military surplus kits so I'm sure many of the parts are well worn, perhaps the extractor was bad on mine? I was suggested to put the parts in boiling water to try to get the cosmoline out if theres any still in there. I noticed most of the jams with Aquila and lake city ammo. Wolf worked fine for the most part.

Pilman,
And yet again I'll suggest here, its not a ORF built rifle.

Todd@ORF

Pilman,
And yet again I'll suggest here, its not a ORF built rifle.

Todd@ORF
I never mentioned that it was built by ORF on this forum, I mentioned on a few other forums that the rifle was built on a ORF receiver. My rifle was built by Hickman rifles.

I'm simply trying to isolate what could be causing the stovepipes? And I see you replied to my other thread on uzitalk, I will try that.

Had a good day to go shoot today and here are some results and pics to critique. I ran 300 rounds of 55gr on a new bolt that was ground to match the lug lands in the receiver and head spaced using a stripped bolt that was not in the carrier. Headspace went from snug on a dummy round to about 3/4 rotation on a no go, and no rotation on a field.
What I did find this time out was that the bolt may be peening out as I can feel a sharp edge along the side at the contact area. What R spec should I use to have the bolt re-hardened wher it was ground to fit?

I have included a few pictures of the bolt that was coated with Dykem before shooting(right, wrong, etc.), and I'd also like a rockwell spec to use on the bolt.

***please click on picture for a decent look. Also a picture of the set up jig I used to adjust lugs-I found with this set up I can remove a few thousandths at a time and rotate the bolt, then easily remove it and hand measure. Once even contact was established, it made it easy to remove equal amounts from each lug to bring into headspace. Just want to lay all the cards on the table for critique.

what happened to this thread? Why did comments stop?

what happened to this thread? Why did comments stop?

Except for the rah-rah AKFORUMS crowd who are kept in check by that board's admins and mods, people everywhere else know the rifles manufactured by ORF are either hit and miss or just plain junk. Their poorly machined and barely heat treated Galil receivers are legendary junk.

Series one was junk and the rest were better?

Even Century quit using them for their builds.

Even Century quit using them for their builds.
Even Century! Wow thats bad. Is there any quick fix like spot heat treating? I
dont want to drop any more money into this so less cash spent the better.

Im really sick about the money I spent on my ORF rec. Inrange built. I felt better about my century built cetme then this thing. I really thought this would be my SHTF instead of an airsoft that can fire .223 rounds.

Edit just noticed this is an old thread oops any ideas would be appreciated.
PS no dig on Inrange cant make silk purse...