Two Galil Question...???

I'm no newb to AK's, but new to Galil's. Been doing lots of reading on them lately. In fact, I just picked up my 1st Galil parts kit, which happens to be a Micro Galil. :small_gri Thought I better snap one up before they're all gone.

Anyway, my 1st question is.....Can Galil's chew up and spit out steel-cased ammo by the thousands, just like AK's, or are you "supposed" to feed them brass-cased ammo like the wussy-baby AR15's. :p Being that Galil's are AK derrivatives, I'm "assuming" that feeding them standard steel-cased .223 Wolf is fine, but I just wanted to ask some of you Galil junkies who have put some serious miles on your rifles.

My second question, which sort of plays off the first, is.....Are Galil's as ruff, rugged, and raw as AK's in terms of firing them with a little mud, sand, or grime in them? I know they can't be more field rugged the AK's, but curious is they are just as field rugged?

I have a feeling I'll like my Micro Galil MAR so much that I'll want a full size Galil ARM, then have to fork out more $ for that. :cry_small

I can't say about the micro Galil but as for my ARM, it eats any kind of 223/5.56 I feed it! As for the ruggedness, you bet it's as good or better than a "regular" AK. There are some fantastic AK's out there. Some consider the Galil & SA R4 to be the "Cadillac" of AK's. (The Valmet being the Rolls Royce).

Some people feel the Galil is the apex of the AK pyramid. ;)

I like Valmets, but, I prefer Galils.

the .223 cartidge is not as reliable in the same action as the 7.62x39 or 5.45. the tapered, wedge shaperd walls of the 7.62x39 make chambering and extraction easy. straight walled cases have greater friction on both chambering and extraction.

combined with steel cased ammo, and various types of laquer used on the steel cases, then there is a greater risk of chambering and extraction malfunctions than with a tapered cartridge caliber or quality ammo.

I've owned around 20 galils in my years of collecting, as well as built and rebuild dozens more for customers. I've never had a desire to shoot steel cased ammo as a constant diet. I have shot some, but probably not enough, fast enough to get the barrel hot enough to where the steel case MIGHT prove a problem.

These comments are for factory IMI/LI galil receivered guns and not the current low quality clones on the market.

What about the plated steel cases, i.e. Silver Bear and Golden Bear?

i have no experience with them

I am speaking in general terms, that is, one of the componants of the AK's phenomenal reliability is it mating with a tapered cartrige.

look at the ar - you are combining a straight walled cartridge with tight chamber and a tight multilugged locking system. all three things contribute to accuracy and degrade reliability

back to the ak. loose chamber, tapered cartridge, and only 2 large locking lugs on beveled edges for initiating both locking and unlocking, as well as a loose bolt to carrier, carrier to rail fit. Not condusive to accuracy, but makes for a super reliable system.

the galil and the .223 ak remove one reliability feature (tapered case) for the benefit of ammo standardization.

that this feature by itself will make the gun inherently unreliable is obviously false, and the ammo standardization may offset the slight theoretical reliability issue.

Add in a laquered steel case to the straight walled chamber and its just one more feature that detracts from theoretical reliability.

whether you will actually see a difference in the field is going to depend on a lot of other factors as well.

but even on my nagants, the laquered steel case gets noticebly harder to extract as the gun heats up.

I'd grab for an AK 7.62X39 over a Galil any day(IMI or clone) given the choice.

Good points gunplumber.....I've read some of the same things on the 7.62 round being so reliable due to the design/shape.

This Micro Galil will be more of a bragging rights novelty piece and occasional shooter. If I ever needed a compact shooter for an urban SHTF scenario, I'd go for the 7.62 Yugo M92 before this piece, but I guess my lady could use it, if not the AKS-74U.

Anyway, I guess a more appropriate question on the ammo would have been.....can Galil's reliably chew up and spit out steel-cased ammo by the thousands just like a 5.45 or 5.56 AK rifle? I just don't wanna use steel-cased Wolf and end up having to replace the extractor/ejector after a couple thousand rounds.

I don't know. I've never purchased a $2700+ galil (current market value) and fed it the steel comblock ammo.

While ammo may now be starting to become an issue, I've never had any malfunctions with south african, USGI, PMC, or any og the other mixed 55 grain ammo I've used over the years.

I had an ARM with a 1-7 twist but never used the 62 grain, it seemed to do okay with the 55 grain.

Funny story. I was at a gunshow. My friend walked into the bathroom with my galil (this was Billy - Pullthru, you might remember him, he worked for Wes for a time). I walked in right after him, saw the 1-7 galil ARM leaning agains the stall. I thought I'd give him a shock - so I grabbed it and slipped out of the bathroom. a few minutes later he walked out, carrying my 1-7 ARM.

I went back in to meet the guy who had been sitting in the other stall who had left HIS 1-7 ARM leaning against the outside of the stall.

Fortunately, he was good humored and didn't beat me senseless over this little misunderstanding, and we talked galil's for a time .. . .

Yep. But I'd never leave my Galil outside a stall,-------A valmet maybe,---Never a Galil.

the .223 cartidge is not as reliable in the same action as the 7.62x39 or 5.45. the tapered, wedge shaperd walls of the 7.62x39 make chambering and extraction easy. straight walled cases have greater friction on both chambering and extraction.

combined with steel cased ammo, and various types of laquer used on the steel cases, then there is a greater risk of chambering and extraction malfunctions than with a tapered cartridge caliber or quality ammo.

I've owned around 20 galils in my years of collecting, as well as built and rebuild dozens more for customers. I've never had a desire to shoot steel cased ammo as a constant diet. I have shot some, but probably not enough, fast enough to get the barrel hot enough to where the steel case MIGHT prove a problem.

These comments are for factory IMI/LI galil receivered guns and not the current low quality clones on the market.


GP,
So the clones YOU create off my recs are...junk? You just said it above, kinda hard to change it now. Explain please..... I do not follow one bit. Its my rec, that does not like steel case ammo, RIGHT? ORF mfg Galils, IWI/former IMI brl guns and GM brl guns run steel case ammo just fine laq finish or copper washed case. To answer the gents question without the BS, you should be just fine running any decent 223/556 ammo in your Galil.

Todd@ORF

I edited cause I thought I copied the entire post for GP

Over the years, I have read the persistant rumor about AK reliability due to different case tapers with 5.56 vs. 7.62 x 39.

It's kinda like the 'the laws of aerodynamics show that bees should not be able to fly' rumors.

Obviously, bees are buzzin' all over the place happily unaware of the rumors.




Galils have never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

Valmets have never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

There are many clones built in the US that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

The Chinese have produced numerous models that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

The Russians have produced numerous models that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

Many of the ex-Warsaw pact nations produced numerous models that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

In fact, several of the ex-Warsaw pact nations have adopted 5.56 AK's for their own militaries as a condition of joining NATO.




While the 'logic' of this unfounded urban myth may appear sound...at the surface,...the real world offers millions of fully functional, fully reliable examples to the contrary.

It's funny, but, I have read (more than once) that "I would never own an AK in 5.56. They can't be built to be reliable in that caliber.".

Many people have argued the 'theoretical' reliability of the 5.56 vs. the 7.62 x 39 due to differences in case taper.

Is it possible that there is some miniscule difference in reliability between the two cases? Sure.

The question is...which would end up being more reliable. To me, it is not a sure bet which cartridge would end up with the inconsequential 'edge'.

I don't see any problem in actual real world application with either cartridge in AK's.

AK's in both chamberings are regularly manufactured by many different facilities in different countries on a regular basis. Both chamberings result in firearms that are as close to 100% reliable as just about anything made by Man.

Over the years, I have read the persistant rumor about AK reliability due to different case tapers with 5.56 vs. 7.62 x 39.

It's kinda like the 'the laws of aerodynamics show that bees should not be able to fly' rumors.

Obviously, bees are buzzin' all over the place happily unaware of the rumors.




Galils have never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

Valmets have never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

There are many clones built in the US that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

The Chinese have produced numerous models that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

The Russians have produced numerous models that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

Many of the ex-Warsaw pact nations produced numerous models that never had a problem with 5.56 reliability in an AK action.

In fact, several of the ex-Warsaw pact nations have adopted 5.56 AK's for their own militaries as a condition of joining NATO.




While the 'logic' of this unfounded urban myth may appear sound...at the surface,...the real world offers millions of fully functional, fully reliable examples to the contrary.

It's funny, but, I have read (more than once) that "I would never own an AK in 5.56. They can't be built to be reliable in that caliber.".

Many people have argued the 'theoretical' reliability of the 5.56 vs. the 7.62 x 39 due to differences in case taper.

Is it possible that there is some miniscule difference in reliability between the two cases? Sure.

The question is...which would end up being more reliable. To me, it is not a sure bet which cartridge would end up with the inconsequential 'edge'.

I don't see any problem in actual real world application with either cartridge in AK's.

AK's in both chamberings are regularly manufactured by many different facilities in different countries on a regular basis. Both chamberings result in firearms that are as close to 100% reliable as just about anything made by Man.

I also believe everything I read and see on TV.

Is it possible that there is some miniscule difference in reliability between the two cases? Sure.

So why do you spend the rest of your response claiming the assertion to which you agree is an urban myth?

there ar "millions" of direct impingement AR-15 types out there. Doesn't stop people from doing gas piston conversions. That 99.9% of the time, there is no operational difference is irrelevant to the question.

Why is it that companies like Bushmaster, DS Arms, etc. specifically recommend against and will not warranty laquered steel ammo in their AR-15s? Still the urban myth?

------------
Oh - and Todd, darling, your receivers are poorly made - by your own admission all the fiorst and second generation receivers are defective. But this thread isn't about you.

Still waiting for a list of which of your receivers are the 1st generation defective ones, the second generation defective ones, and which are the "good" 3rd generation ones. I'm sure buyers will want to know.

Will you take your early ones back for a full refund, since you've admitted they were defective?

I'd like to know on the receiver batches too. My serial No. is RFG XXX21.

IMO, at the bottom of all the ceaseless attacks, dysfunctional illogic, mind games, slander, undermining, etc. is...


PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY

ORF did something nobody could do and so, is attacked mercilessly for it by lesser petty mean spirited lower forms of life.



Gunplumber,

You are an obviously smart accomplished guy.

Why don't you produce a Galil receiver?

You can show us how it should be done, introduce some competition into the market and make some money at the same time.

So why do you spend the rest of your response claiming the assertion to which you agree is an urban myth?

Still waiting for you to clarify your contradictory remarks.



I don't sell milk, but I can tell you if its sour.

Todd admits to having two complete generations of defective receivers. Perhaps you should be inquiring as to why he chooses to sell known-defective products, and why he refuses to identify which of his receivers are the defective ones, and which ones are not.

I can fix most of the defects in his recievers. The heat treat is big problem. Why won't Todd tell us what the heat treat specification is supposed to be? Or didn't you notice that? In all his bitter retorts, the one thing that is absent is what his heat treat specification is, and the method of heat treat.

I assert the reason why is that he KNOWS they are not heat treated apropriately, if at all, and announcing his specifications will make it way too easy to prove him to be blowing smoke.

It's seems to me that you are bitter.

I have known quite a few bitter, petty, undermining people in my life. Real destroyers. I have extensive experience.

IMO, you have a case of PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.

Say what you will.



BTW, many of the 'best' people have had bouts of PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY and they learned to deal with it...to get past it.


The fact that ORF produced a Galil receiver when...nobody else could...has led to a lot of undeserved attacks.


It's like petty catty women attacking a beautiful woman...supposedly...because her shoes don't exactly match her purse.

OK. So, maybe the shoes and purse are not an exact match, but, that's not the real reason for the attack.

The real reason is JEALOUSY...ENVY.


It appears to me that you are eaten up with PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.


Rise above it.

You could respond with mind games, but, that won't help you...or fool me.

Rise above it.



Good luck.

Do you really think trying personal attacks against me is an effective arguement in support of your position?

You have written much, but have yet to refute anything I have said.

"Gunplumber is mean and jealous" does not refute my review of the ORF receivers.

"It is possible that there is a difference in reliability of the cartridges" supports, rather than refutes, my assertion that "It is possible that there is a difference in reliability of the cartridges"

But then, thats been pretty much your standard response to those of us who have carefully documented our observations on products. "you're mean and jealous."

Surely you can do better. Why not criticize my hat? Thats always a good one . .. .

Twisting what I'm saying won't cure PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.


Good luck to you.

Twisting what I'm saying won't cure PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.


Good luck to you.Just out of curiosity, what will ?.

I'll have to dig out my "Abnormal Psychology", -David S. Holmes ,but thought/assumed you'd know.
Thank you.

Just out of curiosity, what will ?.

Thank you.


Rising above will change it. There is no hope of further progress at the current level.

At some point, you have to become a bigger person.

PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY is all about compensating while remaining a smaller petty person.


The answer is rising above.


1.) Considering the possibility that there...may...be a problem.

2.) Facing the problem

3.) A willingness to be different

4.) A change of heart

5.) Rising above.


Even the very best of people have had their challenges with PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.

The truly sociopathic are hopeless. They are to be completely avoided.

For most people, something stops them in their personal development.

Sometimes it's PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.

If you look at it, and admit the problem, the road can open up to some really cool stuff.


Many many many people have been stopped in their lives because they wished others stopped.

PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY stops the person that is jealous.


Karma, dude.

Thank you for the interesting reply.

Unless I've completely misunderstood, how does someone who questions, queries and yes, is even critical of anothers work, automatically become Professionally Jealous.

Apologies to all. Getting way off topic and not the place to dicuss interesting aspects of the Human mind.

An observation does not 'automatically become' anything.


It is simply an acknowledgement of an existing condition, situation and/or phenomenon.


And this is not really too off topic.


It is dealing with the causative dynamic underlying of many of the Galil receiver threads.


PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY obscures the issues, and therefore the answers, which many sincere people are attempting to find.


It's not necessarily what is said, but, why it is said.


In other words, it addresses..."What's really goin' on?".

It is true that the 223 round has a straight walled case. It is simple laws of physics a straight walled case will be harder to extract than a tapered walled case. That is common sense but what contributes to both the Galil and AKs reliability is their massive robust extractor. I take my SAR-1 out to the range and an ejected case is more deadly than the bullet going down range. I got hit in the head with a casing from about a foot away (I was spotting for a freind)and it quite easily and painfully split skin and left a small bruise. The ejector on any AK derivitive is going to extract that casing whether you have laquer baked to your chamber or not. AK or Galil they both have the same extractor and carrier mass. I've never had a jam with my Galil but I haven't fired it that much. When I did fire it it was full power brass Partisan 75 grain stuff (probably generating a staggering amount of chamber pressure). The combination of carrier mass and the AK ejector will make the gun more reliable. There's also the chrome lining. Many "National Match" guns with match barrels don't have the chrome in the chamber. When present it gives the chamber a lubricity, easing extraction. Even without chrome lining an AK will still run a classic example is Yugo M70. My SAR-1 (chrome lined chamber) and my freinds Yugo (not chrome lined) showed no discernable difference in relaibility. On the other hand, if you get some sand in the AK chamber or the Galil chamber expect either gun to grind to a halt, although I've never witnessed this personally (just an educated guess). The chamber tolerances are relatively "tight" (talking thousands of inch) on any gun no matter the design. If any person on this sight knows about the reliability of the Galil it's Todd at ORF. I've heard stories about him putting them through their paces. If you want an authority on the subject ask him.

I thought gun plumbers review of the ORF receiver on Arizona Response Systems website was pretty objective and every assertion was backed by evidence. I didn't think it was malitious or slighting in anyway. I also think that that sort of information is vital for builders to know. Afterall product improvement is a product of customer feedback. If the ORF receiver was perfect there wouldn't have been second generation. I don't know gun plumber at all but I have had some limited experience with Todd. He is extremely reasonable, nice and is obviously a genious with a with a mill. Neither gun plumber nor Todd seem to be the type prone to jeleous backbiting. The ORF Galil receiver was Todds ballsy attempt at trying to create something out of nothing. Yes it may suffer from some "dimensional differences" from the reall thing but in the hands of a skilled builder the receiver produces an excellent finished product. Todd has made it possible for poor folk like me to have a Galil and not have to pay 3000$ for one. In an era where shooting has become a rich man's sport I'm glad we have innovators around like Todd and glad to be lended the objective insight of gun plumber. Todd will continue to get my business and the business of my freinds.

An observation does not 'automatically become' anything.


It is simply an acknowledgement of an existing condition, situation and/or phenomenon.


And this is not really too off topic.


It is dealing with the causative dynamic underlying of many of the Galil receiver threads.


PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY obscures the issues, and therefore the answers, which many sincere people are attempting to find.


It's not necessarily what is said, but, why it is said.


In other words, it addresses..."What's really goin' on?".
Narcissistic ?

Narcissism and PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY go hand in hand.

Basically..."It's all about ME, ME..and ONLY ME..." to the exclusion of all others.

Ever seen the movie "American Psycho"? Pretty good dark humor and not that far from real life.


There are Win/Win people and there are Win/Lose people.

Win/Win people feel they can't win unless others win.

Win/Lose people feel they can't win unless others lose.


PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY is very common among Win/Lose people because, when others win...they feel like they are being made to lose.

The world is full of people that will give up $10,000 if it meant that you would make $5,000. Incredible, but, true.


One thing that I have learned is that you have to give credit where credit is due. Otherwise, you limit yourself.

It's cause and effect. You can BS yourself, you can BS others, but...you simply cannot BS the Universe.

In order for this, or any other industry, to move ahead, you must have people that are big enough. Not just 'ego big' enough.


Another cool movie, though sad, is "Tucker". It portrays a real innovator and how his industry basically 'crucified' him for his accomplishments and ideas.

So, this is really nothing new.

No one is a saint. Everyone has been petty from time to time. It's the human condition.

When these occasions present themselves, it's a good time to look at ourselves and decide to become bigger people...to rise above.


Being a Win/Lose person is a miserable dead end.




What does this have to do with so many Galil threads?

Unfortunately...everything.

I was not implying GP was Narcissistic, but merely trying to understand why you appear not, to try and see opposing views of an argument/discussion . You appear to be so focused in your attack of GP.

Do you know him ?.

I know him , both Professionally and Privately (for approx. 17 years)
He is not a Narcissist, Does not have a jealous bone in his body, tells the truth(to his own detriment on occasions). Was ELATED some time ago to hear news of someone manufacturing a Galil receiver.
If he screws up, he admits it and is an Honorable Man.
He, like everyone, has a right to critique, question etc. His comments and observations are for the benefit of the shooting community.

Maybe retirement has affected my comprehension somewhat, but I really do not understand why you're getting so emotional about GP.

Oswald's been trying this same stuff for years, but he's just out of his league, pullthrough.

He seems to think if he throws enough smoke, nobody will notice that he's said nothing of substance.

Its just classic ad hominem with some jack-in-the-box thrown in.

"racist"
"homophobe"
"jealous"
"narcissist"

While words do have meaning - oswald isn't using them with any objective meaning. He is using them to elicit an emotional response because he is incapable of persuasion through thoughtful reasoning.

Notice in his volumes of personal attacks against me, he has been unable to refute ANY of my assertions.

Nor has Todd chosen to reveal to us which of his receivers are the "good" ones, and which are the ones he knows to be defective. He is suddenly and uncharacteristically silent on the issue.

I don't think it is unreasonable, when he admits to selling two complete generations of defective receivers, to ask how to tell a defective one from his alleged "good" one.

Nor do I think it is unreasonable to ask him to simply state what the heat treatment is. After all, he has challenged those of us who have tested his receivers and found them soft - while at the same time refusing to state what his specification is.

What other conclusion can one draw from his evasiveness then the evidence of poor heatreat (or NO heat treat) experienced by myself and others is valid?

Perhaps Oswald will eventually realize that he's dealing with readers perceptive enough to be amused, if not annoyed, by his baseless personal attacks against me.

I challenge him to read my reviews and identify, point by point, any factual errors or incorrect data interpretation. Of course, that would require him to REASON, something that appears to come to him only with great difficulty.

there are three

BUILDING A GALIL

ORF 1st Generation Receiver

ORF 2nd Generation receiver.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/pagenotes.htm

No attack on anyone.

Just observations. Strange how you mischaracterize them.

The odds are you will remain in denial. OK.


Good luck to you. ;)

Hey Oswald , What kind of nutcake are you ? Did you learn all that pyscobable in the joint 1 hour a week for 10 years ? Everyone get off GP's ass . He is a good man and is honest . He can be a little fired up at times and that is good as he is sticking up for what is right. On the other hand , here are my dealings with Todd @ ORF .http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141114&highlight=ORF+lead+times http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141114&highlight=ORF+lead+times Thanks, Jerod

Don't drink all the Kool-Aid.

Save some for someone else.

LOL! :laugh_sma

GP,
How many times do I have to tell you what the heat treat is on my receivers. Ok ready here we go again, let me hold your hand...... 40-45RC is IMI spec. Did you get that?????ONE MORE TIME 40-45RC So again I ask you where is your rockwell tester? And once more gen 1 - 2 - 3 there are no defects. 1-2 is change from vertical mill to horizontal milling. And gen 3 is when we changed the mag well. Once more NO DEFECTS That clear enough for you?

Os,
GP has and never will make anything on his own. Why? Don't know I asked him that years ago.

Jerod,
Not sure where you fit in here, you pulled your projects from my shop, no problem sent them to ya. Jimtash and Louie got theres shortly after and all were getting done at the sametime. If you do not recall, we were just getting setup in the new place, but anywho.

Todd@ORF

GP,
How many times do I have to tell you what the heat treat is on my receivers. Ok ready here we go again, let me hold your hand...... 40-45RC is IMI spec. Did you get that????? ONE MORE TIME 40-45RC

It is not the IMI spec we are interested in, it is YOUR spec. What is YOUR spec?

And once more gen 1 - 2 - 3 there are no defects.

You have admitted that one must grind on your receiver for the bolt carrier to install, but at the same time claim their are no defects? The only thing a reasonable person can conclude from that apparent contradiction, is that you consider having to grind, cut and dremel for parts to fit is acceptable quality!

And gen 3 is when we changed the mag well. Once more NO DEFECTS That clear enough for you?

Oh yeah - that was because factory orlite mags wouldn't fit .. . right?

GP,
Alright I am just gonna come out and say it. YOUR A FUCKING DUMBASS IMI spec 40-45RC, same as what we do. IMI print that we worked from 1986 dated, no AR mag well upate, no front rad update, no rear rad update, thats Gen 1 and 2s design. I can post the print if someone would like to host the pics.I HAVE AT THIS POINT LOST ALL RESPECT FOR YOU Sometimes I thought you just liked giving me a hard time, but now your just being a DICKHEAD

Todd@ORF

GP,
Alright I am just gonna come out and say it. YOUR A FUCKING DUMBASS IMI spec 40-45RC, same as what we do. IMI print that we worked from 1986 dated, no AR mag well upate, no front rad update, no rear rad update, thats Gen 1 and 2s design. I can post the print if someone would like to host the pics.I HAVE AT THIS POINT LOST ALL RESPECT FOR YOU Sometimes I thought you just liked giving me a hard time, but now your just being a DICKHEAD

Todd@ORF

So if a receiver tests below RC 40, you acknowledge that it is defective? Just last week you insisted that RC 32 wasn't "soft" and now you claim that the minimum spec is 40. I'd like to see that spec, because 40-45 is a pretty large range. I'd have expected it to be within 2 points on the C scale.

Can you explain the apparent contradiction between your claim of following the original prints, yet acknowledging that a bolt carrier won't fit without the customer machining and grinding? (I'm using that as the most glaring "issue" - there are of course dozens of others).

I am helping the community by spending dozens of hours documenting my builds and the issues I discovered during those builds. If people have concerns with your product after reviewing my meticulously documented notes, perhaps you should fix the problems instead of getting mad at me for noticing.

In fact, several companies send their products to me for evaluation. Sometimes on their production models they incorporate the changes I recommend.

For you, lets start out easy. check the heat treat of every receiver before you send it out. See the little pinprick on factory parts? Most manufacturers of firearms check every critical part. Considering the safety issues, a rockwell tester really isn't that expensive. "Fowler" makes a nice digital portable unit for around $3000, and a nice digital floor model for just under $7000. "Select"makes a portable unit for under $700, but you must measure the impact using the 60x magnifier instead of just reading a digital display. I am really surprised that you make receivers and don't have even rudimentry hardness checkers. Heck, even a set of hardness-testing files (under $50) would be better than sending out units with no idea what their hardness is.

next step would be to take a bolt and carrier assembly. Slide it into every receiver. If it doesn't fit, don't ship it to the customer. The cost of the all the negative reviews of your receiver have got to be greater than the 2 minutes required to chek the product before shipping it.

Even though I make my flash hiders on a CNC, I still hand thread each one onto a barrel, just to be sure. Every once in a while, I find a bur that needs to be chased. But *I* find the bur, not the customer. Sure, it takes me an additional 15 seconds, but i figure that is a lower cost than getting something back.

I think people woulod willing pay a little more for a quality product, instead of a little less and having to gamble on whether a bolt carrier will even fit in the receiver, or if the heat treat will cause safety issues.

*GP reminds me of the guy who walks around bitching about the President...but doesn't vote???*
I don't see ARS producing any Galil receivers...? Instead of trying to defame ORF-why doesn't GP document his findings and then submit them to Todd via email? Isn't that what an honorable man would do? Instead;GP tries to "dazzle" the neophytes with relative conjecture and "thug" accusations toward ORF.This is to make himself "appear" to be superior...when he obviously is not! Again,where are the ARS Inc. Galil receivers?
This is the kind of person who does you a favor-and then reminds you of what he did for you...for the rest of your life! Just take a look at his personal "bio"...that says it all.
This is Narcissism to thee extreme!
I would bet my life,that GP has enlarged pictures of himself on the walls of his home! To prove my point:Take note of his Avatar...it's him! How many members,of any forum that you visit-place a picture of themselves as their Avatar?
The only facts anyone would be concerned about-is his knowledge of firearms repair and fabrication.Instead,GP wants to take us on this Tour DeLuxe of his great personal achievements(whether they are true or not...I will lean toward the latter)outside of his chosen profession... ok-whatever?
I wouldn't put alterations,refinishes,and assemblies(builds)in the same league as fabricating a complete receiver...it takes a "true" gunsmith to do so.
Not to sound cliche'...but give credit where credit is due!
GP insists on describing milling variances as "defects".These are known as "procedural/production variances",they are not defects! An experienced gunsmith knows this...or should? I have spoken with ORF,and they are extremely courteous,and professional.They will revise,repair,or replace as needed any firearm they produce...period!
I just don't see where GP's "pissing and moaning" is helping at all? He should try being part of the solution-not part of the problem...there's no "I" in team! To GP,Please treat this forum as a community...not your personal advertisement page.
I have spoken to many locals on their experience with ORF production firearms,and EVERY one of them could not be any happier! Mine was constructed by Century...and I suspect that is 99% of the problem.Last I was fortunate enough to get the opinion of a former Israeli police officer on the build quality of the ORF Galil, he stated;"I like my ORF Galil BETTER than any of my IMI Galil's".
I will take mine to Bo Randall's shop to let him test the hardness of the receiver-and will post his findings here.I cannot think of a more knowledgeable person than Bo Randall when it comes to the art of metallurgy...but I'll bet GP can?
From where I sit,GP talks the talk...
ORF walks the walk!

very interesting post. typical of those incapable of debating the substance of an issue (as in "why don't factory parts fit your receiver?).

Gee- so sorry for noticing.

GP insists on describing milling variances as "defects".These are known as "procedural/production variances",they are not defects!


Sure - and criminal invaders are "less documented immigrants".

So - if you bought an AR-15 upper receiver and an in-spec bolt carrier wouldn't fit into it - would that also be a "milling variance"?

If I buy a gallon of milk, and notice its sour, is there some rule that says I am not permitted to notice the milk is bad, because I do not produce milk?

Quite an interesting position you are taking.

Factory parts don't fit an ORF receiver, and instead of wondering why ORF would sell a defective product, you attacks me for noticing that fact?

Even Todd admits that factory parts don't fit the receivers he sells, but like you, thinks that is perfectly okay.

I was really excited when Todd came out with a galil receiver. I have an opportunity to make a lot of money building these guns.

But it appears that what you want is for me to lie, and to admire the beautiful clothes the Emperor is wearing, when in fact he is naked.

As you can see in my detailed photo-documentry, I demonstrate (free) to other builders how to correct the defects . . . (oops, I mean "milling variances") in the receivers. Unfortunately the "heat treat variance" is not something I have the facilities to correct.

What free tutorials have you provided for the community?

Perhaps I should say you are not permitted to crique my review because you have not written a review yourself. That would be following your own bizzare standard, would it not?.

From all I have gathered, GP is likely a very good gunsmith. A cut above most, I would think. There are many reports that substantiate this.

As far as his jihad against ORF?

I think it's PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.

It's just that simple.

GP's remarks in his defense reminds me of Bill Clinton. He goes on and on, but, there is nothing really but "sound and fury, signifying nothing".

ORF produces the receivers...without which most of today's Galil buyers would be out of luck.

GP produces endless undermining, carping and criticism.




PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY sometimes leads people to some very sad behavior.

It's a shame.



Call me crazy, but...

What if GP became a bigger person, rose above and actually started working with ORF to some degree? The industry would benefit.

It could happen.

That must be it - I'm jealous of ORF.

So does that mean if I wasn't a Master gunsmith myself, if perhaps, I was corporate beurocrat - then my photodocumentation of my experiences would become valid?

It is interesting that you assess data not on its own merits, but by who reported it.

Seems to me (but I'm being logical here, so I can understand where you might find it difficult to follow) that someone who has built and rebuilt dozens of galils on orignal and ORF receivers possibly has some insight that one who does not work in the field might lack.

Are the others who have experience mirroring mine also jealous?

Lets see - there is Derek at AZEX - he's competent, and no longer accepts ORF receivers because he found the exact same issues that I did.

Oh - and pulthru - he's retired now, but worked in the manufacturing and testing industry for 30+ years. Is he jealous too? It couldn't be PROFESSIONAL jelousy, as he doesn't work in the field, so would it be RETIRED AMETUER JEALOUSY?

How does one tell if the receivers been heat treated properly or what GEN their receiver is? I was going to get my gun built at AZEXARMS but Derek sounds frustrated about ORF and will no longer take orders regarding their receivers. It sounds like what he was saying that the IMI receivers are supposed to just go together but the ORF ones do not, also something about having to reallign the gas tube so it doesn't shoot off to the side or something?

I'm glad we have an American manufacturer that makes Galil receiver as I really don't have 3000 dollars for a real Galil, but also, from many of the reviews it does appear there are some issues that do need to be corrected. I don't want to present anything I'm saying as fact because I am ignorant when it comes to something like this.

GP is what you would call-brutally honest! honest to a fault!
I think he means well,he just doesn't express it in the way most people would.
To GP,
It's about keeping a positive constructive attitude...that's all!
You're a professional gunsmith,but your conduct seems unbecoming of a professional.You "slam" Todd in an attempt to raise your own profile...this is a display of weak moral character.
If you do have the talents you say you have-then please contribute! Gather your intel,and establish a line of communication between ARS and ORF. "Slamming" Todd gets nobody anywhere! I don't think anyone is riding the forum because they have nothing better to do?
I couldn't be happier over the fact that Todd has displayed the intestinal fortitude of undertaking the task of reproducing the Galil receiver...you haven't!
GP,you just seem to be a pugnacious individual...I might be wrong?
Todd wins my respect-hands down!!!

Todd,
I got to fire an ORF Galil today...excellent rifle!!! :D

That must be it - I'm jealous of ORF.

Good. We're making some progress.

That wasn't so hard now, was it?


:laugh_sma





(I'm ignoring the Bill Clinton-esque rhetoric and blather. ;) )








GP and ORF working together to some to degree in the future?

It could happen. You never know.

That must be it - I'm jealous of ORF.

So does that mean if I wasn't a Master gunsmith myself, if perhaps, I was corporate beurocrat - then my photodocumentation of my experiences would become valid?

It is interesting that you assess data not on its own merits, but by who reported it.

Seems to me (but I'm being logical here, so I can understand where you might find it difficult to follow) that someone who has built and rebuilt dozens of galils on orignal and ORF receivers possibly has some insight that one who does not work in the field might lack.

Are the others who have experience mirroring mine also jealous?

Lets see - there is Derek at AZEX - he's competent, and no longer accepts ORF receivers because he found the exact same issues that I did.

Oh - and pulthru - he's retired now, but worked in the manufacturing and testing industry for 30+ years. Is he jealous too? It couldn't be PROFESSIONAL jelousy, as he doesn't work in the field, so would it be RETIRED AMETUER JEALOUSY?

OOH !---I'm SO Jealous I Could spit !!

OOH !---I'm SO Jealous I Could spit !!


You don't have to be. :p

Pettiness is a choice.

You can make a different choice.









Pullthrough, GP and ORF. Working together for the good of the entire shooting community.

I'm telling you. It could definitely happen.

ok. I'll give you what you want. Let me practice:

--------------------------

GP: ORF receivers are perfect in every way

but why won't my bolt carrier fit

GP:You must have a defective bolt carrier because ORF receivers are perfect in every way

but none of my bolt carriers fit, and they are factory IMI

GP:They must all be defective, because ORF receivers are perfect in every way

how come my bolt passes over the cartridge - it seems the floor of the receiver is too low

Sillly goose, thats just "milling tolerance". Just weld up your mag catch - it must be defective because ORF receivers are perfect in every way.

but why did my ejector deform from ejection? Is it too soft

GP: no - of course not - there must be something wrong with your ammo. And that company you had test the receiver for hardness - they LIED TO YOU. its not RC 32, because IMI spec is 40-45 and ORF receivers are perfect in every way.

but why won't my bolt bear on both sides of the receiver? Its only contacting one side

GP: It must be a bad bolt, because ORF receivers are perfect in every way. Just grind on that out of spec bolt to make it fit the perfect receiver.

My headspace changed .006" after firing a few hundred rounds. Why would that happen? Is it dangerous? Are you sure my receiver isn't soft?

GP: Of course not, RC 32 isn't "soft" it is perfect in every way. How dare you test it yourself. The heat treat company is just JEALOUS of ORF, thats why they made up such a low reading. ORF receivers are perfect in every way.

the left and right stock holes don't line up

GP: You are just JEALOUS that you don't produce a FAL receiver, an FNC receiver, and a Galil receiver. The holes are for the special "Sayert Tzankhanim" stock which is canted for shooting uphill. ORF receivers are perfect in every way.

FNC receiver? FAL receiver?

GP: Shut up! Don't think for yourself. Just believe what you are told. No objective analysis is allowed. Todd says its perfect, therefore it is perfect. Professional Jealousy, thats what it is. Your hat is funny. Why do you hate Todd so much?!!! Was your Mom mean to you?

dude - I'm just asking why my observations don't match what you are telling me . . .

GP: SHUTTTUP! You're an A$$HOLE. Stuck up, egotistical bastard. You just wish you had what Todd does.

no, dude, I just want to build this gun, and the parts don't fit, and the metal is mushrooming under impact. I'm concerned as to its safety and longevity

GP: SHUTTTTTT UPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!

LOL!

That was funny! :laugh_sma

I don't think anyone has said that there are absolutely no problems with "some" of the ORF receivers...
I had to send my Century/ORF receiver into Todd to find out why my shell cases are ejecting with a dent/crease in the center of the spent shell? My ejector also ended up with what appeared to be a "chip" out of it?
I wish someone would post some pics of the IMI Galil-with the cover off of it! That way we cold get a visual idea of the kind of tolerance differences we're talking about;concerning the carrier/receiver mating...
Obviously there is a problem...and yes-it does suck! But what would suck worse,is to have the manufacturer who does not stand behind their product.ORF is committed to it's product,and stands behind it 100%.
I guess we will have to wait for the ARS Galil receivers?

GP sure does have the Garth Brooks thing happening... :notworthy

GP sure does have the Garth Brooks thing happening... :notworthy

I'm waiting for the 'perfect' GP produced Galil receiver.

Actually,...still waiting.



Cleverness by itself is not of any particular note.

Cleverness misapplied is a waste.

Cleverness, only when employed in a worthy pursuit, is of any value.







(All that cleverness, talent and experience. Now, if we can only get it pointed in the right direction. ;) )

Geeez, it's the same shit over and over again........someone needs to wear down and conceede.

This is the deal from where I stand. ORF makes/sells Galil's as well as the receivers and the parts. Todd, you have to know what your doing at your house to make good builds. I haven't seen much, if anything, negative about recent Galils purchased from YOUR place. If your doing some tweeks, making some adjustments, or have a specific way your headspacing......please, for god's sake add a link to your web page that explains it just as gunplumber has done on his. I have a feeling that a lot of problems and negative press is coming from home builders like myself, or possibly whatever the "F" goes on at Century, not knowing how to deal with specific problems, or processes, needed to complete the build on your receiver. Most, if not all may be simple tweeks, that if addressed at the time of the build will never be a problem after the fact.

Your receivers are not cheap, not in price, and not in overall quality, but I do beleive that it may take a little more than most average builders realize to do a good build. Some if not all of the issues may have been corrected on the latest generation, but if earlier receivers have errors related to general function or safety, you need to step up to the plate.

GP, I don't even know where to start. It's a great thing that you've posted the information that you have on Galil builds on your web page, and Todd owes you a lot of respect for doing it because I suspect that it's sold a lot of receivers for him to the home builder market and made him a lot of money. Why he hasn't done the same is beyond my comprehension since he stands the most to gain from getting issues resolved. I can understand your frustration as a builder, because to you, time is money. If your spending time correcting things that might cause a come back, then your loosing out, especially if you thought is was a plug and play deal. I'm guessing your pretty much a one man show like Tromix?

Bottom line is that in general, your both just wasting your time with the mamby pamby b.s. on the threads with personal atacks on each other, the rest of us are just feeding it. Identify specific problems with specific fixes. I'm guessing that other than the fact that these two have issues with each other, that's the reason GP wants specific versions and s/n sequences called out. Once that has been done, repairs, tweeks, or fixes can be attached to each.

I took a good look at my build with the headspace issue. I'm not a Rockwell tester, but under close magnification I see no mushrooming of metal or ejector fatigue on mine. It does appear to have unequal bolt carrier guide set back that has caused the lug to only contact the right side. Is this normal? Beats the shit out of me, I'm not a professional at this-most likely amature at best, but you two are..........find the root causes of most of the complaints, post the fix, get on with life, and hopefully none of us gets hurt before the process is complete.

By the way, I'm not whining about ORF, if Todd hadn't produced the receivers I'd still be pissed over selling a IMI .308 ARM some time ago that I no can no longer cost justify buying another to replace. I've bought several Galil items from ORF, all were excellent products in great shape, and priced well within my reach unlike a lot of other on line sellers. I repair new cars for a living. Sometimes a manufacturer produces the same model, year after year with the same conditions, sometimes they post service bulletins with revised parts if a condition occures, and sometimes they issue a recall. It all goes back to cost justification vs what the problem is. I've grown to learn that all mechanical things fail at some point, even us.......most can be repaired.

You don't have to be. :p

Pettiness is a choice.

You can make a different choice.

I thought perfection was a choice , How do you do it ?









Pullthrough, GP and ORF. Working together for the good of the entire shooting community.

I'm telling you. It could definitely happen.

I don't think anyone has said that there are absolutely no problems with "some" of the ORF receivers...

yes, that is the issue. I took pictures of the problems I had. I am attacked for it. Its really bizarre.


I wish someone would post some pics of the IMI Galil-with the cover off of it! That way we cold get a visual idea of the kind of tolerance differences we're talking about;concerning the carrier/receiver mating...

I did, the ORF side by side with a new helvitica import IMI receiver. I even show, step by step, how to modify the ORF receiver to match the IMI. I am attacked for noticing the significant differences. "Significant" defined as "bolt carrier won't fit without machining ORF receiver". Somehow, I'ma bad guy for showing people how to fix their ORF receiver, and Todd is a good guy for selling receivers that need to be fixed.


Obviously there is a problem...and yes-it does suck!

No - according to Todd and oswald and some others, there is no problem. it is just "milling variances". Even Todd admits the )_@(!&#)_!&#+ bolt carrier doesn't fit in his receiver, but *I* am the villan for taking a _@!&*+_)!& picture of it and showing people FREE how to correct it.


I guess we will have to wait for the ARS Galil receivers?

where does this disconnect in logical thought come from? If I buy a widget for my truck that is supposed to fit that model and year and it doesn't - do I have to be a widget manufacturer myself before I can say "hey - this widget doesn't fit my truck!"

Some of you are really strange. the same out-of-spec part that you fawn over from Todd you'd not stand for an instant in any other product field.

If you buy a fricken screwdriver and it bent in normal use because it wasn't heat treated right, would you expect the manufacturer to call you a "fucking dumbass" and a "dickhead" for having a problem with their screwdriver?

THERE ARE NO DEFECTS IN ORF RECEIVERS. Here is the quote: "And once more gen 1 - 2 - 3 there are no defects. "

But I'm the villan for noticing that Todd's statement of "no defects" conflicts with known realities.

This is really amusing . . .

Well,I guess it's time for me to break open the piggy-and just buy an IMI Galil...maybe a nice AK47? I'm certain that if any of us had known about this,we would have told Century where to go...
I guess what everyone is trying to say is: We are fed-up and pissed off over this entire fiasco!!! If there's anything you can say,or do to HELP to problem...that would be great! If not...:sleep_sma
I just want my fucking Galil to work!!!!!!
I may have even emailed your notes to Todd?

Well, I've got two dogs in this fight since I've built on two of the ORF Galil receivers. First off, thanks to Todd for working on an affordable US made Galil receiver. Bringing a newly produced milled receiver to the US market is no easy task. Secondly, I've encountered many of the same receiver problems noted here and one mentioned both here and in the SG News Galil build article. The ORF Galil receiver would be a great receiver if these few problems would be fixed. It is time consuming to fit the receiver to a parts kit on each build. It gets expensive if you are paying a gunsmith to build on a ORF Galil receiver where the consumer pays for the gunsmith's time. The receivers are definitely buildable but unnecessarily difficult.

Let's speculate here for a bit. If Todd were to state that his receivers had defects, it could easily ruin ORF financially. Latest 'bank run' on firearm products that comes to mine is the FTF (in some AR models) problems earlier this year on the Magpul plastic AR mags. Magpul replaced many a magazine. Now take this situation and magnify the expense per unit 30-40 fold. I'm sure these Galil receiver problems will eventaully be all worked out by ORF in the future. Right now, it's costing Todd many hours and dollars for him to trouble shoot each ORF built Galil rifle that is returned to him for customer identified problems. He has no financial choice in how he responds to the known ORF Galil short comings. Ever wonder why he has not marketed a FAL or a RPD receiver yet? Maybe it's financial liability that always occurs in setting up a new product to market - something like the ORF Galil receiver problems???

BTW - I bought a second ORF receiver after I was able to make the first one into a reliable, good shooting weapon. Currently I'm working on the second one resolving a FTE problem but think I have it resolved this time - need to hit the range to verify.

BTW2 - ORF customer service is always top notch.

The bottom line is...don't purchase a firearm that has been built by the monkeys Century! I was warned-but didn't listen...:sad_small
I'm sure Todd will handle it.
I was thinking that maybe I could get Century to replace my Galil with a 3rd Gen model?

Guys,
Again theres no fight here. GP feels the need to trash for some reason. I have not got answers to any question posed to GP. I have answered all his questions. I came up with another as I posted on Uzitalk. GP you say my recs are soft (and you mention I said that 32rc is not soft, which in fact you said 32rc is soft, which I disagree to the extent of 32rc is not soft and no ORF recs have ever checked that but you try to imply I am saying that) but you never mention how you rectify this. How do you heat treat my recs then if there so called soft? And how do you check this? And lastly, where are your IMI prints to go check stuff? Need a set? Ok thats like 4 for GP which will not get answers.

Todd@ORF

not sure what you are rambling about here todd.

you admit that factory IMI bolt carriers may not fit in your receiver. But I'm "mean" for noticing it as well. Can you explain the apparent contradiction between your claim of following the original prints, yet acknowledging that a bolt carrier won't fit without the customer machining and grinding? (I'm using that as the most glaring "issue" - there are of course dozens of others).

Ohhhhh I see, you claim to HAVE the original prints. thats not the same thing as claiming to FOLLOW them.

Independent builders all across the country, have confirmed many of my observations.

Independent heat treat tests don't agree with your claim of RC 40-45. (the No. 1*Mk.V eyeball test also notices mushrooming metal, not characteristic of RC 40-45.)

The Emperor is wearing no clothes.

You keep barking up this same irrational tree - that if I don't make a galil receiver, I am somehow incapable of noticing the differences between my IMI receivers and yours.

It doesn't work, and its energy you'd benefit by expending on correcting your defects, not screaming at me for noticing them.

Being new here to the forum of “The AK Files” first I would like to say “Hello” to everyone and as always a “Thank You” to the people that make these forums possible for all the folks that have questions.

Secondly, I would like to state for the record that I, in no means a firearms professional manufacturer but I do enjoy going out to the range and plinking some tin cans once in a while! :D

OK, now that’s out of the way,…
I was reading this thread about the receivers the Ohio Rapid Fire is in the process of manufacturing and selling for the Galil kits that individuals are assembling themselves and some of these individuals are questioning the hardness of the receiver or the Rockwell tests – especially Mr. Graham of Arizona Response Systems.
I myself cannot speak professionally about this receiver for I have never had the opportunity to test one but I can professionally shed some light on the Rockwell test itself for those out there that are not quite sure what these guys are talking about. This is what I do from 8 to 5!

Let me try to explain for those few who are confused about it,…
A Rockwell test consists of measuring the additional depth to which a steel ball or Brale diamond penetrator is forced by a heavy (major) load beyond the depth of a previously applied light (minor) load.
The minor load is applied first and a reference or SET position is established on the dial gauge or SET meter of the Rockwell tester, then the major load is applied. Without moving the piece being tested, the major load is then removed and with the minor load still applied, the Rockwell hardness number is automatically indicated on the dial gauge or digital display. The entire operation takes from 5 to 10 seconds to complete the test.

There are many contributing factors that come into play when doing these Rockwell tests, one is surface finish. The surface finish must be 125 RMS or better for B, C, E, G and K Rockwell scales and 63 RMS or better for Rockwell scales A, F and H. In regular Rockwell testing the minor load is always 10 kgf. (kilograms-force). The major load, however, can be either 60, 100 or 150kgf. No Rockwell hardness value is specified by a number alone, it must always be prefixed by a letter signifying the value of the major load and type of penetrator used. As of the receivers in question, I believe Mr. Graham mentioned in one of the posts about a “C” scale? I don’t know the requirement or call out for the questionable receiver but the “C” scale is using a Brale (diamond penetrator) with the minor load of 10 kgf. and the major load of 150 kgf.

The Rockwell scales are established such that an infinitely hard material will read 100 on the diamond penetrator scales and 130 on the ball penetrator scales. One Rockwell number represents a penetration of 0.002mm (0.000080 in.). Therefore, a reading of C60 would indicate a penetration from the minor to the major load of (100 – 60) x 0.002mm = 0.080mm or 0.0032 in.
In many instances Rockwell hardness tolerances are specified or are indicated on drawings, at times however, the Rockwell scale must be selected to suit a given set of circumstances. Actually, some knowledge of the factors governing the choice of the proper Rockwell scale can be valuable in any situation where there is some question of the suitability of the specified scale. I don’t know what materials or alloys these ORF receivers are made from but I would have to believe that the “C” scale should be sufficient for them if there made from Steel, malleable iron, titanium and any other materials harder than B100 (soft steels and aluminum alloys).

As before I mentioned that many contributing factors that come into play when doing these Rockwell tests, another is the depth of the material. The depth of the material affected has been found by extensive experimentation to be on the order of 10 times the depth of the indentation. So if the material area being tested is not at least 10 times the depth of the indentation an accurate Rockwell test cannot be expected. This “minimum thickness” ratio of 10:1 should be regarded only as an approximation.

When two or more parties must agree on the hardness of a material or part, it becomes vitally important that the parties have a mutual understanding of how the test will be preformed. It is not unusual for a supplier, for example, to promise his customer(s) that all parts shipped will fall within a certain hardness range. Prior to shipment, a wise supplier performs a hardness test on the parts, either on a sampled basis or as a 100% check. The customer normally inspects the same parts as they are received. Unless an agreement has been made on such things as the apparatus to be used, preparation of the specimen, calibration, test procedure and method of reporting, the possibility of disagreement is high. If there is any doubt on/or inconclusive data about the parts in question then I would advise the individual to have a Rockwell test done before the build is started to be absolutely sure it is to standard specs (if there are any “standard” specs).

I hope this clears up any confusion about Rockwell hardness testing and I apologize for the long read.

~ Chainsaw