ORF Galil's

Has anyone picked up one of these & what;s the verdict on them. I'm interested in the ARM model. ORF claims they're 100% new IMI parts + the ORF receiver & US parts. Are the barrels US made or IMI? Either way are they chrome-lined & what's the twsit. Any feedbcak is appreciated.

THX

they are not 100% new IMI parts.

the receivers are problematic.

green mountain barrels are hit or miss. not chrome lined. IMI barrels are.

heat treat? What heat treat?

I guess it depends on what your expectations are.

well thats wonderful to hear.

please identify where they are heat treated and to what hardness, as 32 on the Rockwell C scale is usually considered "dead soft"

I guess the krylon over rust was added to the new parts to impart that special authenticity.

please identify what problems were on the "old" receivers that were "fixed" on the new ones, as well as how to tell an old receiver from a new one.

I would like to know what remedies are available to the consumer who is obsessed with building a Galil and has an ORF receiver, should it prove soft...meloniting by Ron Smith or someone?

AFAIK, ORF has their heat treating done by an outside source.

The ORF receiver is the only game in town.

There have been lots and lots of good Galils built from ORF receivers.

Whatever problems may or may not be present, ORF receivers are the only option for US receiver Galils.

Find a builder with a great reputation and a GREAT ATTITUDE about building YOUR Galil on an ORF receiver.

Ask around the gunboards. Do your due diligence in researching the right builder for your build.


Getting a Galil built on an ORF receiver is not a problem. It's done all the time.

The more due diligence, the more evenly split I find good and bad reporting.

While they are the only game in town, and I own an ORF receiver, reputation and attitude are emotional feelings, not statements of fact.

I'm seeking facts and remedies - if, if they are needed.

Well, if I spoke with a smith that had a BAD ATTITUDE about ORF receivers...I would look elsewhere. No need to look any further into a guy with a stinko attitude.

If you think that the smith attitude toward ORF Galil receivers and the smith's reputation are not factors upon which to base your decision...it may be why you are having a hard time finding a builder.

I don't know why some people have such a supposedly hard time getting an ORF receiver Galil built.

It's done without issue every day.



Good luck.

GP,
Always in the know right? Yes we offer a 100% new parts IMI gun, maybe you should read my site. We also offer the GM brl guns with used IMI parts. 32rc is "soft"? WOW!

Talyn,
As you see how I responded to GP, we do offer a 100% new IMI parts gun, there built to order. There 1-7 twist chrome lined bores. We also offer the GM brl guns 1-9 twist, non chrome lined.

Todd@ORF

yes, you sold one of your "new" galils to a friend of mine.

I guess it was new - 20 years ago. . . . the krylon was a nice a touch. If only he hadn't cleaned it, he may never have noticed the rusty old parts underneath. But he did notice the AK parts you were using.

Maybe if professional gunsmiths with outstanding reputations are less than enthusiastic about the product, there is a reason.


So now that Todd is here, please list which serial numbers are the "old" defective ones and which are the "new" ones you've "fixed".

(interesting how you can "fix" something without ever admitting anything needed fixing)

It is true that building a galil on an ORF receiver is not a problem.

Building one that is safe and reliable - well thats another story.

Maybe some people just don't care what happens after it leaves the shop.

Getting a Galil built on an ORF receiver is not a problem. It's done all the time.

Yes...safe and reliable builds...all the time.

???

GP,
Your just too much sometimes. Ak parts, you mean the FCG with a Ak hammer, ok, whatever man. Its funny you can say this.
"Maybe if professional gunsmiths with outstanding reputations are less than enthusiastic about the product, there is a reason." And then in the same post follow it up with this "It is true that building a galil on an ORF receiver is not a problem." Theres talkers and do'ers. Your a talker my friend.

Todd@ORF

Some of us have standards higher than simply screwing the parts together.

Having the headspace change because of the soft receiver is a bad thing (or is that just on the "old" new ones?).

And of course, your "improved" geometry is interesting. But I guess its par for the course for you to sell a receiver that the bolt carrier won't fit into. Must be for a "custom match fit".

And of course, there is the magazine issue - it kindof sucks to have to make custom mag catches because your dimensions leave the mag hanging so low you get bolt-over base (or was that just on the "old" new ones.?)

And then there is the issue of the locking recesses being so far off that only one lug engages (or is that just the "old" new ones?)

And then there is the ejector mushrooming from being dead soft. (oops! That must have also been the "old" ones.

So why not be a good lad and just identify which of your receivers are the defective ones, and which are the "new" new ones.

Then all of the professional gunsmiths who have given up on your "creative" machining can will recommend your product, and make lots of money building on them, and then everyone will be happy.

There is several galil photodocumentries on my website as well as comparisons of the ORF to an IMI. While I havn't finished all the commentary, the pictures are worth 1000 words.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/pagenotes.htm

GP,
Again behind the times my man. You have Gen2 receiver there. I know you have worked with the Gen3s, we butted heads on Uzitalk when Gen3 came out and you had not even had the time to look or build the as you put it "your property now" the receiver I sent you to review 2-3 months prior. Its nice to ask for input from a professional, but the professional should be just that and when the item was received, feedback sent back, but thats not GP style. I gotta ask a few things of you. Why in your pics do you complain that the carrier does not come to rest on my left side, and at the same time show a IMI rec and it does not either? Cause it is not suppose to. How about all the extra machining you have to do. I don't remember where I read it, but you stated 2 hrs needed? For what? Why do you chamfer the left side top? Its not needed for fit, I like that extra "meat" and I would rather not go head to head with IMI for.....well I think you could finish that statement. Is that part of that 2 hrs needed? Only thing I see in your "review" is the radius on the right for the carrier, or did I miss something? Yeap Gen 2 had that, and not a hard fix, nor did it even effect function, made for a bit harder felt charge. You never answered me about the 32RC being soft, is that really your stance? BTW, do you actually own a Rockwell tester, a real one, not a cheap gadget (file)?

Todd@ORF

So how many defective receivers did you sell that you are now calling "gen one" and "gen 2"

How does one know if a receiver they are looking at is one of the ones you admit to be defective?

seems to me, any time someone points out the defects in your product, you have the same answer: "oh, that was one of the old ones". How many years of "oh thats one of the old ones" before you turn out a quality product?

if "you have to machine the receiver for a bolt carrier to fit" is your definition of a quality product, then you have a lot to learn. I shouldn't have to machine anything. And its not just ""a bit harder felt charge" whatever thats supposed to mean, its "bolt carrier cannot close, even with a hammer, due to defective receiver"

Todd,
I have an ORF built receiver, made for Century, but sold through Centerfire Systems. I have no idea what version it is, but it was purchased early this year along with a "used" kit including a GM barrel.
This was assembled as a home build by me, a life long mechanic by trade, gun tinkerer by hobby and I do have a condition where the headspace changed in less than 1000 rounds from good to closing on a field gauge. This was kind of hashed over at UZI talk.
I would consider shipping the assembled gun to you for evaluation if you have the ability to check the hardness and you can evaluate anything I may have done. I can also supply the no go/ field gauges that I used.
The s/n is GAL0056x.

If your interested you can contact me at,
killerbombo@aim.com

There are three members on this thread who's opinions I have grown to respect, (others I don't know well enough) this is an opportunity for a real world check on the receiver vs build problems I may have induced, all I ask is for an honest answer so I can make sure this is safe long term and that any problems with either hardness, or my construction get corrected. In Todds defense, I have not read many posts related to his recent builds having problems, unlike the Century and home build market. My Action Arms I.M.I. .308 was as dependable as the day is long, this one makes me a bit uneasy.

Regards,
Mark

What about all the Guys out there with the older Receivers.

Mine is not holding headspace and the ejector Mushrooms.
The bulge that forms on top of the right side rail ?: Remember Todd, I asked you about that a while back and you said, something to the effect, "It'll shoot itself in and settle down.".
It's still "shooting in and settling down" I guess.
Only Rifle I've ever had where I can restore correct Headspace by wacking the top right rail with hammer and punch (Temporarily of course).

So, again, what about all those poor Sods with the earlier Receivers. Tough Titty eh !. ??

I do have full access to Rockwell Testing Equipment (Aerospace/NASA Certified)

Pullthru, that's a little concerning if true. On one of the threads concerning changing headspace it was stated that bolt carrier to receiver contact (right side) WOULD NOT cause headspace to change as it was set by the bolt lugs riding in the receiver slots. Now, once again, I'm not sure what to believe.

6500rpm, Totally true. But don't think it's necessarily a function of the bolt carrier in this case, but Possibly the way the the bolt locks in to the receiver.

Trouble is/has been, that when questions are asked , based on observations, such as the right locking surface pushing back and you get a, "It'll settle down",
where do you go from there ?. To wall hanger status ?.
I've owned MANY rifles over the past 34 years (four "real Galils" included) and I can truthfully say, this is the only one I feel a bit nervous of,in terms of will it hold together. My shooting these days is very light and maybe happens a couple of times a year. This mushrooming
and headspace loss is happening with small volumes of ammo being fired.
My receiver came out at 40ish Rockwell C. Measured on the receiver flats , forward of the bolt carrier at rest location. Ejector and rails cannot be measured due to their location in the receiver.
The rifle shoots great and feeds reliably, maybe it's the AK bullet guide that ORF used to fit in them( Receivers).
Good luck Man, follow your Gut not your heart, things seem to work out better that way.

Pullthru,
If you have access to a RC tester, test that side if you think its soft. Yes a "fresh build" is gonna seat in. I think your who I also asked to check headspace with a field guage to see how much things had changed.
Bravo,
I saw the Fed Ex notice, will look see when it gets here.
6500,
Going back to Uzitalk, I posted how we headspace. I would never headspace a gun with the bolt in the carrier, carrier has play in it too so your not getting a real good read.

Todd@ORF

Well , my money is on Gunplumber . I have dealt with both Todd and GP over the past years and GP always comes threw . I wish I could say the same about Todd . I think Todd means well and tries to do the right thing but runs out of time and rushes things out to be " Done with it" . Stick to one project and do it well before you move to the next one is what I was taught ! GP has forgotton more about weapons than Todd or I will ever know . I had a issue with Todd almost having my ORF receiver and parts kit for over a year . It is well documented with dates and I will post the link here. http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141114&highlight=ORF+lead+times also look at this http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152866&highlight=ORF+lead+times [ MAKE SURE TO LOOK AT ALL THE DATES OF THE POSTS ! ] It tells a story just by the dates !

I got one of the 2nd's being sold.Any Info will be great.

I'm not a professional gunsmith,but I've never heard of a "fresh build seating in."What does this mean? Is the headspace a bit short,to allow for this stretching?Does it go out of headspace? Why should a guy have to rockwell test his reciever? Doesn't every receiver pass this test before it leaves the manufacturer? We're talking about American guns,here,not Pakistani AK clone crap,or last ditch Jap Arisakas. Quality should be better than this.

Troll alert!

I'm not a professional gunsmith,but I've never heard of a "fresh build seating in."What does this mean? Is the headspace a bit short,to allow for this stretching?Does it go out of headspace? Why should a guy have to rockwell test his reciever? Doesn't every receiver pass this test before it leaves the manufacturer? We're talking about American guns,here,not Pakistani AK clone crap,or last ditch Jap Arisakas. Quality should be better than this.
Precisely !!. Others have , over a considerable period of time echoed your comments/questions. If you can get answers to your questions, that make sense I'd be amazed.

Oswald 2001, I see or read no "troll'. Are you maybe looking in a mirror and talking to yourself ?

.

Oswald 2001, I see or read no "troll'.


Of course you don't. :)

[QUOTE=Oswald2001]Of course you don't. :)[/QUOTE

But you do. Hmm, interesting. How long has this been going on ?. Do you find it depends on what you eat or the season of the year ?.

Some people, when observed reality trumps their fantasy ideals, choose to reject reality. Oswald is one of these poor souls. As a defense mechanism (like liberals shouting "racist" when one observes an invading army swarming accross our southern border), Oswald shouts "troll" or some other epithet whenever someone observes flaws in an ORF product or Todd dancing around the truth.

As to Coburns comments, they are of course correct. There is no such thing as "break in period", "new gun syndrome", " seating in" or any other euphemism invented by gunwriter whores to rationalize the blatant failure of manufacture quality control.

A gun either works correctly from the first time a magazine is inserted, or it is a piece of junk that should be returned to the manufacturer with well-deserves admonitions against selling garbage.

Well said. (oops !, does that mean we're conspiring again ?)

Maybe Dr. Phil could help ?. Not sure how well versed he is with the " I see a Troll Syndrome" though.

yep, that me. I'm so jealous. I wish I could make out-of-spec projects, lie to my customers, make empty promises, and invisible receivers, but I can't. This damn self-respect thing keeps getting in the way.

Well, I'm still waiting on the ARS Perfect Galil receiver.

Show us how it's done. :)




Say...I was wondering,...do you make your own poison...or do you buy in bulk? :rofl_smal

Go back and read Todd's last post.He's asking a guy to run a field gauge thru his Galil. I'm thinking,geez,this is a brand new build?I can see things stretching a bit after 15,000 rounds,but on a new professional build? Does Springfield Armory ask their customers to gauge their stuff after a couple hundred rounds,to see if things are out of spec?Rock River? Remington? Anybody? Theres guys on this board,building homemade recievers on Romanian parts sets,probably the least quality controlled AK,save maybe Paki crap,and they aren't having the problems I'm hearing these Galils have.

Whatever problems...real or imagined...with any Galil would easily be remedied by ARS producing the Perfect Galil receiver.


The perfect Galil receiver from ARS.


The obvious solution.


We're waitin'...

Oswald, I have been observing your posts for quite some time on both the Uzitalk board as well as this one. I can't remain silent for any longer. You are nothing but a shill for ORF, pure and simple. I've seen your type come and go over many years of participation on gunboards. Always latching yourself on to some product or gunsmith you think walks on water, holding court on the various gunboards, belittling anybody who dare challenges the absolute perfection of product x or gunsmith y.

The debacle with MKS a few years ago springs to mind. Even as good law abiding folks were having their receivers confiscated, people like you continued to bleat about how great the product was and calling people liars when they posted about the confiscations. After it was clear what was happening, these shills just disappeared, ashamed of their own shortsightedness.

Solstice Arms is another example. Follwing involvement of the Kansas Attorney General, several profoundly misguided posters were still defending GG's thievery.

Here are the facts:

ORF Galil receivers have problems. I have examined one of the so called latest generation and the left bolt lug recess on the receiver was machined so far back that the bolt was only making contact on the right side. Use your head man! With 45000 PSI happening inches from your face, the solution to this problem is not grinding on the bolt lug to achieve proper lockup. The bolt lugs were designed to be a certain thickness and hardness. Grinding them to fit should not be considered a viable option. This is a fundamental expectation, and an area where the ORF receiver has documented problems (Do a search on Uzitalk or read the recent Shotgun write-up). Guys like Gunplumber or Derek from AZEX have an obligation to both customers and potential customers to be honest about these issues. They don't need to be able to manufacture their own receivers to have an expert opinion on the viability of ORF's. Heck you even jumped on one poster over at Uzitalk that was having problems claiming he was bringing over "insanity and dysfunction" when he posted about accuracy problems with his ORF. Do you think that is OK to do?

Do us all a big favor OK? Let the grown-ups talk. If I need advice from like minded people here (including Gunplumber) I'd like to get it without tripping over the aftermath of your dry humping of your latest fantasy super product.

C'mon Piebald2001, thats pretty lame even for you. I don't make a receiver, therefore I may not make observations on the OPF receiver. Harumph. I don't make milk either - guess I can't notice if its sour?

Well, if I spoke with a smith that had a BAD ATTITUDE about ORF receivers...I would look elsewhere. No need to look any further into a guy with a stinko attitude.



Yes, it is always better to find someone who will build a rifle out of junk. :rolleyes:


I don't have a dog in this fight but GP is correct, as usual, and has abundant experience. A little abrasive, yes, but that can be a good thing, and is, most of the time.

Oswald2001, your'e 411man's gimp on the Falfiles and you're now ORF's gimp here, stop being a gimp and be yourself dude!

JMO, and yeah I know opinions are like aholes... blah...blah...blah...

:)

I just got a call from a customer yesterday. His ORF gun went from a tight close on a go to closing on a field in 300 rounds. Now its blowing primers and cases.

Tell you what, Oswald, why not put your money where your mouth is and buy all the receivers people are having trouble with?

Gee, all these supposed problems...from UNQUALIFIED builders.



Even Century finally got up to speed with how to properly build a Galil.

Maybe you can get Century to train you?





Century can now build better Galils than an 'award winning' builder.

How funny! :p



See what happens when you decide to stage an anti-ORF jihad?

Century is now ahead of you in expertise.

Can't fool Karma, dude.

There's still time to change your ways. :wink_smal

I guess they learned something after having to recall so many hundreds of guns.

Of course, your analysis must be put in the context of what YOU consider acceptable. Since you not only approve, but emphatically support receivers that are so far out-of-spec an IMI bolt carrier won't fit without machining, the value of your opinion is somewhere near Barbara Streisand's analysis of military strategy.

And the ORF troll enters in 3...2...1

An anti-ORF jihad? Are you for real?

Grow up!!

Question For you Oswald. How many Firearms and what Types have you built/worked on ?. Where does Your expertise come from to enable such critical opinions.

I can't comment on ORF yet, I bought a receiver from them and I am currently having my gun built by hickmann rifles. I asked the guy if he had any trouble with builds or the gun shooting to the left, headspacing issues, etc. He said he hasn't had any problems so I will see how he does.

I've read a few complaints about the century firearms on the forums, never seen the problems myself but if there are many posts regarding problems, I wouldn't doubt it. If I have problems with my gun, I will certainly comment about it. Oswald, no doubt it is nice that ORF makes Galil receivers absolutely, it is nice that we do have the option, however we are all customers and if we have problems with a particular product, I think that it is a customers right to complain and for the manufacturer to fix the problems so that they can sell a high quality product. Complaining is good when the manufacturer realizes the problems and is willing to fix them.

I don't know if ORF has problems or not other than what i've read on the forums so therefore I cannot say anything about them...yet. But AZEX and Gunplumber being builders probably have a lot of experience as they've most likely run through hundreds of these receivers building them and would notice any possible defects.

Yes Century is mass producing but remember even Century has had problems, a friend of mine purchases a century Galil and it's ripping the the casings to peices. He's been getting a few failure to feed but that might be due to the magazine as well.

I just got a call from a customer yesterday. His ORF gun went from a tight close on a go to closing on a field in 300 rounds. Now its blowing primers and cases.

Tell you what, Oswald, why not put your money where your mouth is and buy all the receivers people are having trouble with?

Mark,
Your implying in your post that this is a ORF built gun. Folks its not. Mark assembled this rifle, the customer has contacted me. The customer informed me when this problem came up, the above assembler just said "its a receiver hardness issue" and no more. (Mark so you know I am not BS'n ya, his initials are HD) So Mark I gotta ask. You bitch about my receivers being soft, but you do not anneal, reheattreat, then assemble? You just assemble and send it out? How are you gonna back your stellar assembly work for this gentleman?

Todd@ORF

I guess they learned something after having to recall so many hundreds of guns.

.


Yep.

They paid the price and appear to have now learned. Something that you have not done.

At this point...even Century is your superior.

So...when are you gonna catch up with Century?


All this energy going into an anti-ORF jihad.

Sad.

You could...actually do something worthwhile instead...if you wanted.



You obviously have the talent and ability.

How about becoming a bigger person by leaving the PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY behind?



STILL waiting on the Perfect Galil Receiver from GP?

STILL waiting... :small_gri

You can do it.

And the community as a whole will benefit. :wink_smal

Question For you Oswald. How many Firearms and what Types have you built/worked on ?. Where does Your expertise come from to enable such critical opinions.

I'll take your silence as ZERO and NONE. What a Surprise !!!!!!

Todd : As a suggestion, to stop all this "Yes it is", "No it isn't" B.S. , Can't you, as the Manufacturer issue a "Certificate of Compliance" regarding hardness. I've asked this or something similar a while back.

You'd get the paper work from your Heat Treatment guys, file the original and ship a copy to your customer. If any Hardness issues arise , you're in the clear, you just "hammer" your Heat Treatment Company and they have to make it right. They obviously Rockwell test before they release their work, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Additionally, I feel it would certainly be a good customer service move, in view of all the "discussions" about the Galil Receivers, justified OR not.

Hmmm...

Century builds good Galils now.

Century doesn't have any supposed problems with receiver hardness.

Century doesn't waste any energy in an anti-ORF jihad.

Century builds more Galils that either of the ARIZONA BUILDER.

Century paid the price and went through the learning curve.



If you know what you're doing...you turn out nice Galils.

If you don't know what you're doing...especially if you have PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY...you go on an anti-ORF jihad.


Keep on bashin' boys.

I need a good laugh! LOL! :laugh_sma

Hmmm...

Century builds good Galils now.

Century doesn't have any supposed problems with receiver hardness.

Century doesn't waste any energy in an anti-ORF jihad.

Century builds more Galils that either of the ARIZONA BUILDER.

Century paid the price and went through the learning curve.



If you know what you're doing...you turn out nice Galils.

If you don't know what you're doing...especially if you have PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY...you go on an anti-ORF jihad.


Keep on bashin' boys.

I need a good laugh! LOL! :laugh_sma

Oswald, no offense intended here but even a google search on professional jealousy seems to bring up your name ...quite a bit to the forums. You seem to use this word very often. I don't think the builders are specifically ANTI-ORF or on a Jihad, Gunplumber posted a review and indicated where there are potential problems. If this is all receivers, I don't know but the review was enough for me to be a bit concerned. Century has problems, a friend of mine bought one and had his returned which was a good thing but it still shoots to the right.

Yes it's good a American manufacturer has offered us a receiver like ORF which is a better solution than Hesse/Vulcan but if there are problems, then they should be addressed. It's no different if you purchased a brand new car and started noticing it was having gas leaks and other problems/recalls and complained about it would you? When the Xbox 360 first came out, I complained about problems with the 4 red lights of doom and the system locking up, Microsoft did recalls. The 360 is a great system but it still has problems and a lot of the fanboys are saying "there is no problem". I view products through a neutral viewpoint, now I don't have any complaints of my own as I am still having my Galil built, but why is it "professional jealousy" for a user indicating a defect in a product if that happens to be the case? Perhaps not all of the receivers have problems, but the ones encountered by AZEX and gunplumber were apparently enough that they figured it wasn't worth it to the point AZEX no longer takes ORF receivers.

You also have to consider Century Arms, they mass produce firearms so there are likely going to be less defects as they are a large company, any receivers that are flawed they would likely not sell or it wouldn't pass Quality Control (if they have a such thing). CAI is able to afford that expense and therefore are not limited to a person to person basis. I think most of the builders are a one man show whereas CAI probably has multiple workers going down the assembly line or what not.

I don't know about the other builders, it's difficult to say if they've encountered this problem but I wish they would post and let us know their experiences.

Pullthru,
I get a slip when we pick up from HT what there specs on that batch is. Yes you guys are welcome to copies of them, none has ever been under 40 and most avg 41-42RC. I don't have a scanner so I cannot post one, but if you would be so kind to email me your address I will send you an original copy of the last batch we just picked up and any others that may still be here.

Todd@ORF

I don't know about the other builders, it's difficult to say if they've encountered this problem but I wish they would post and let us know their experiences.


You don't hear from them because:

A.) They realize that they don't have the necessary expertise to build a Galil.

B.) They are not on an anti-ORF jihad driven by PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.






You don't hear from the REAL 'top builders' because they are busy turning out good product.


You guys are funny. Tryin' so hard to intentionally 'misunderstand'.


Oh well, "Ya can't fight crazy.". LOL!

You don't hear from them because:

A.) They realize that they don't have the necessary expertise to build a Galil.

B.) They are not on an anti-ORF jihad driven by PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.






You don't hear from the REAL 'top builders' because they are busy turning out good product.


You guys are funny. Tryin' so hard to intentionally 'misunderstand'.


Oh well, "Ya can't fight crazy.". LOL!

Not at all, I'm having my Galil built by Hickman rifles, I don't know what the rifle is like because I haven't shot it yet. All i'm saying is the fact that it has been brought up on the boards and that there are complaints must indicate that there are potential problems with a few of the receivers. Don't lump me into the group of being anti-ORF, I am simply concerned about the product as a consumer.

Pilman,
I have never heard of Hickman Rifles, does not mean anything bad about them. Oswalds postings are merely stating GP loves to bitch point fingers and complain, but you do not see folks like Hickman, Elite, InRange, IGF, POHA, thats just to name a few, posting and bitching, there busy building Galils.

Todd@ORF

Pilman,
I have never heard of Hickman Rifles, does not mean anything bad about them. Oswalds postings are merely stating GP loves to bitch point fingers and complain, but you do not see folks like Hickman, Elite, InRange, IGF, POHA, thats just to name a few, posting and bitching, there busy building Galils.

Todd@ORF

Understandable, I had never heard of them before but they seem to have a good reputation.

I was originally going to use AZEX and then they raised the price quite a bit and shortly after stopped taking the ORF receivers so that ruined my plans hence I was looking at going through you guys, the wait time was a bit long so I ended up going through hickman rifles which they quoted me a low price and 1 month ETA. The guy I spoke with Michael told me he didn't have any issues with builds and showed me pictures of his. Looks like they did a few builds in the past as well so hopefully everything goes smooth with them and I may do repeat business with them if I get the .308 galil receiver through you guys.

Are there any safety concerns to worry about in the #600 serial number range? I have the newer receiver and I've read constant posts in regards to the bolt lug. I just want to be assured that there are no safety concerns, I will let the builder worry about headspacing.

Mark,
Your implying in your post that this is a ORF built gun. Folks its not. Mark assembled this rifle, the customer has contacted me. The customer informed me when this problem came up, the above assembler just said "its a receiver hardness issue" and no more. (Mark so you know I am not BS'n ya, his initials are HD) So Mark I gotta ask. You bitch about my receivers being soft, but you do not anneal, reheattreat, then assemble? You just assemble and send it out? How are you gonna back your stellar assembly work for this gentleman?

Todd@ORF

Are you implying that building on your Galil receivers requires the builder to anneal and re-heattreat the receiver?

That's about the stupidest thing that I've heard in a long time, Todd.

And I work at Hickman Rifles...

Forrest

Are you implying that building on your Galil receivers requires the builder to anneal and re-heattreat the receiver?


*** From all I have read, ORF has stated that there is NO problem with the heat treating of the ORF Galil receivers. The following comments do not support the heretofore unfounded rumor spread by a few 'questionable' individuals.




I believe you may have missed the intention of the comment.

To me, it seemed to clearly point out a problem with the builder...not the receiver.

I took that to essentially mean: 'So...if you believe that the receivers are too soft, why are you just building on them and sending them out the door if you really believe that the customer will have problems? Why are you not taking corrective measures if you truly believe that the receivers are soft?'

I mean, if a 'top' builder really believed that a receiver was soft he should either get it heat treated properly or refuse to do the build.

For sure, you don't do a build, get paid and then screw the customer.

That would no be just incompetent, but, unethical too.




That's about the stupidest thing that I've heard in a long time, Todd.



That's a bold claim, Sir, considering the dysfunction in this thread alone. LOL! ;)


BTW, nobody has said anything (positive or negative) about Hickman rifles.




Here's what I have seen:

1.) Barrels are out of spec. - BLAME THE RECEIVER

2.) BUILDER DOES NOT HAVE THE EXPERTISE - BLAME THE RECEIVER

3.) Barrel tweaked during the installation of the gas block - BLAME THE RECEIVER

4.) Lack of handfitting due to not 100% compatability of American FCG - BLAME THE RECEIVER

5.) Not making sure bolt lugs both make contact - BLAME THE RECEIVER

6.) Too thick of finish coating (e.g. on the rails) - BLAME THE RECEIVER

7.) Not headspaced properly - BLAME THE RECEIVER

8.) Beat up kit - BLAME THE RECEIVER

9.) Chamber cut too shallow or too deep - BLAME THE RECEIVER

10.) Global Warming - BLAME THE RECEIVER

Not at all, I'm having my Galil built by Hickman rifles, I don't know what the rifle is like because I haven't shot it yet. All i'm saying is the fact that it has been brought up on the boards and that there are complaints must indicate that there are potential problems with a few of the receivers. Don't lump me into the group of being anti-ORF, I am simply concerned about the product as a consumer.


I can't blame you a bit for being concerned about your purchase.

Especially considering all the anti-ORF propaganda put out by 'questionable' individuals.

The propaganda is meant to cause trouble, doubt and fear for a purchaser such as yourself.

Yes. Among other things...YOU...and other buyers are targets in a campaign.

Until you mentioned Hickman rifles, I had never heard of them.

My gut reaction is that, if Forrest works there, it's probably a very reputable shop.




There a plenty of guys turning out good Galils. Including, apparently, Century now.

It's very doable. It's done every day.

If other guys are doing it. Obviously, it can be done.

If you send your work to a guy that is qualified to build a Galil, you will be happy.

Honestly, it's just that simple.

Anything more than that...or other than that...is just madness and confusion.

I believe you may have missed the intention of the comment.

To me, it seemed to clearly point out a problem with the builder...not the receiver.

I took that to essentially mean: 'So...if you believe that the receivers are too soft, why are you just building on them and sending them out the door if you really believe that the customer will have problems? Why are you not taking corrective measures if you truly believe that the receivers are soft?'

I mean, if a 'top' builder really believed that a receiver was soft he should either get it heat treated properly or refuse to do the build.

For sure, you don't do a build, get paid and then screw the customer.

That would no be just incompetent, but, unethical too.



Well, you may well be right...

Clearly, I did read Todd's comment somewhat differently.

I thought that Todd was saying that the assembler was responsible for heat treating ORF's Galil receiver. That would have been really stupid.

And, upon rereading, what you say makes more sense.

So, I apologize to Todd for the 'stupidest thing that I've heard in a long time' comment.

However, I think that gunplumber was saying that he has stopped building on ORF's receivers exactly because it would be unethical for him to continue building on them when he 'knows' that they're too soft. How would you know that they were too soft? By first building on a few and seeing the results. After all, it's not every gunsmith who has Rockwell hardness testing equipment just laying around to be used. We certainly don't...

We have built up several Galils on ORF receivers, all using new GM barrels. None have seen enough use to determine whether the receivers are too soft or not. Every build has presented some building problems that, with some skill and care, have been overcome.

Having said all that, there are lots of concerns being expressed from many different directions about the metallurgy (I refer mostly to heat treat when I say that, and I speak as someone who has worked in the past as a metallurgy technician) of the ORF Galil (and, perhaps, other milled receivers as well) receiver.

I do know that the M16 mag adapters that ORF shipped with their receivers wouldn't fit the receiver without some additional milling work. I do know that there has been some uneveness in the locking lug recesses.

In general, I think that the ORF Galil receivers look quite nice, but I do have some concerns about their longevity. To my way of thinking, there's too much smoke out there for there not to be some fire. Personally, I would not build on an ORF Galil receiver for a personal gun. But others in the shop have done exactly that and are very happy with the result. I've even shot one of the other employees personal guns (the person who actually builds the Galil kits up into guns) and was impressed with how accurate the rifle was. Of course, it was built from a kit initially in superior condition. However, I have no idea about how long the rifle will last.

Another problem that builders have with Galils (and also some AKs) is that some of the kits that people buy to have rebuilt are just junk. Bores shot out (especially M70 Yugos, of course, because of no chroming), gas blocks gone, bolt faces eroded, etc. It often becomes a tricky decision to make about whether you will even take on a build. That becomes an even bigger problem when the kit comes by the BBT, sight unseen... The customer often balks when you tell him that the barrel needs replacing, of that a new (or, at least, better) gas block must be found. And, of course, if there are problems with the gun after it's built, no matter how worn out the kit was to begin with, guess who is blamed for the problem? I think that we (Hickman Rifles) have a pretty good reputation for turning out stuff that both looks good and works. But, sometimes, it takes a lot more work to get there than anyone would think.

Many of the Galil kits that I have seen have been worn out. That's especially true of the folding stocks. It's very time consuming (and expensive) to have to sleeve the folding stock hinge pins to tighten the folding stock up. When new, these FAL Para type folding stocks were rock solid. After being carried around in Guatemalan jungles for decades, they're not so solid anymore...

What all this means in terms of any long term prognosis for the ORF Galil receiver remains unclear. The simple fact that a number of reputable, and well respected, builders now decline Galil builds because of receiver concerns is certainly not a good sign.

For what it's all worth...

Forrest

By the way, PILMAN, after reading all this, I'm betting that you're getting a little nervous about your baby in the works...

All that I can tell you is that we'll do our very best to build up a rifle that will make you happy...

And I think that you will be...

:)

Forrest

To build a Galil from worn out kits and US parts from different manufacturers is not for the faint of heart.

It is not an easy undertaking. And it's not for everyone. Even otherwise competent builders may not possess the competence for building Galil clones.

I look at building Galil clones as a specialized niche market. For the very reasons you have mentioned. Builders that do not look at it this way often have unrealistic expectations and blame their mistake on others.

That's why it's best, IMO, to deal with smiths that specialize in these undertakings. They are best situated for the 101 headaches that come with building clones.

It would be much easier to just buy IMI Galils from the start. Or 100% IMI components. But...it's not possible.

Due to the legalities involved, we have to make due with things the way they are. Over time, manufacturers are coming to the market with American made parts and the new 'system' of things is improving.

Anytime that you have copies built, they are going to be close to the original and almost never exactly like the original. That goes for FCG's, receivers, barrels, furniture, etc.

For instance, I have 2 IMI UZI carbines. I have seen the Vector copy and the Norinco copy. They are not exact copies of the IMI UZI. They are fine clones, but, there is a difference.

It's the same with the Galil clones.

In such undertakings, there is going to be some handfitting involved. That's just a fact of life because we don't have a supply of new 100% IMI parts.

The most amazing part of this whole thing is that we have US made Galil receivers, barrels and FCG's in the first place. It wasn't that long ago that you would never have even seen a US made AK hammer.




"What all this means in terms of any long term prognosis for the ORF Galil receiver remains unclear. The simple fact that a number of reputable, and well respected, builders now decline Galil builds because of receiver concerns is certainly not a good sign."


It is not a sign of any concern to me. To me it is just a sign of people that are not qualified to build Galil clones. Those guys are not 'go to' guys for Galil builds.
Don't go to those guys.


Go to the builders that quietly go about putting out excellent Galils on a steady basis.




Look, we are not in the days of limitless supplies of new unused IMI parts. Those days are long gone. And they won't be back.

So...a builder can damn these days, damn the parts kits, damn the receivers, damn the barrels, damn the high ammo prices, damn the government, etc...

or...just do a great job with the materials that are available.



Again, it's a challenging specialized niche build. Again, it's not for most builders.

Not realizing this is the real source of the smoke your refer to in the above quote.

If you had a Ferrari, you would really need to take it to a Ferrari mechanic. One that specializes in that niche market. A mechanic well qualified to work on most US cars would not have the competence to work on a Ferrari.

A smart mechanic would not bitch about how Ferrari's are handfitted and pieces of junk. He would realize that he is not qualified to work on Ferrari's and would refer the customer to a qualified mechanic.

If only 'top' builders would do the same. Just because a guy can build great AK's and/or FAL's, it doesn't mean that he is qualified or set up for building Galil clones.





Despite what anyone says...or believes (some people truly believe the moon is made of green cheese)...excellent Galil builds happen every day.

The ones doing the great builds are not on an anti-ORF jihad. They are busy building Galils because they are qualified and set up for building Galils.



It's true that "Where there is smoke there's a fire.".

It's also true that there are some people that start fires soley because they enjoy burning things down.



Excellent Galil builds are done every day.

By the way, PILMAN, after reading all this, I'm betting that you're getting a little nervous about your baby in the works...

All that I can tell you is that we'll do our very best to build up a rifle that will make you happy...

And I think that you will be...

:)

Forrest

Sounds good, appreciate you posting on the subject. I will be sure to give good reviews on all the major gun forums I frequent and hopefully bring some business your way, perhaps another gun if I decide to go with a .308 galil.

The worn kits are a problem but it's what we have to deal with unfortunately though blackthorne sells new kits (albeit expensive). I wonder how bad the Hesse receivers are?

Some of the kits are really beat up, the one I got I thought was decent, it wasn't too bad and it was packed in cosmoline, I think the hinge on the gas block might be broken, dust cover was chipping but other than that, it looked to be a pretty average kit so hopefully everything goes smooth :). I was considering the chrome barrel but it was out of my budget as the 18" was going for about 285 dollars compared to 110 with green mountain, and most people told me I really didn't need it for accuracy. Maybe i'll pick one for the .308 build.

To build a Galil from worn out kits and US parts from different manufacturers is not for the faint of heart.

It is not an easy undertaking. And it's not for everyone. Even otherwise competent builders may not possess the competence for building Galil clones.

I look at building Galil clones as a specialized niche market. For the very reasons you have mentioned. Builders that do not look at it this way often have unrealistic expectations and blame their mistake on others.

That's why it's best, IMO, to deal with smiths that specialize in these undertakings. They are best situated for the 101 headaches that come with building clones.

It would be much easier to just buy IMI Galils from the start. Or 100% IMI components. But...it's not possible.

Due to the legalities involved, we have to make due with things the way they are. Over time, manufacturers are coming to the market with American made parts and the new 'system' of things is improving.

Anytime that you have copies built, they are going to be close to the original and almost never exactly like the original. That goes for FCG's, receivers, barrels, furniture, etc.

For instance, I have 2 IMI UZI carbines. I have seen the Vector copy and the Norinco copy. They are not exact copies of the IMI UZI. They are fine clones, but, there is a difference.

It's the same with the Galil clones.

In such undertakings, there is going to be some handfitting involved. That's just a fact of life because we don't have a supply of new 100% IMI parts.

The most amazing part of this whole thing is that we have US made Galil receivers, barrels and FCG's in the first place. It wasn't that long ago that you would never have even seen a US made AK hammer.




"What all this means in terms of any long term prognosis for the ORF Galil receiver remains unclear. The simple fact that a number of reputable, and well respected, builders now decline Galil builds because of receiver concerns is certainly not a good sign."


It is not a sign of any concern to me. To me it is just a sign of people that are not qualified to build Galil clones. Those guys are not 'go to' guys for Galil builds.
Don't go to those guys.


Go to the builders that quietly go about putting out excellent Galils on a steady basis.




Look, we are not in the days of limitless supplies of new unused IMI parts. Those days are long gone. And they won't be back.

So...a builder can damn these days, damn the parts kits, damn the receivers, damn the barrels, damn the high ammo prices, damn the government, etc...

or...just do a great job with the materials that are available.



Again, it's a challenging specialized niche build. Again, it's not for most builders.

Not realizing this is the real source of the smoke your refer to in the above quote.

If you had a Ferrari, you would really need to take it to a Ferrari mechanic. One that specializes in that niche market. A mechanic well qualified to work on most US cars would not have the competence to work on a Ferrari.

A smart mechanic would not bitch about how Ferrari's are handfitted and pieces of junk. He would realize that he is not qualified to work on Ferrari's and would refer the customer to a qualified mechanic.

If only 'top' builders would do the same. Just because a guy can build great AK's and/or FAL's, it doesn't mean that he is qualified or set up for building Galil clones.





Despite what anyone says...or believes (some people truly believe the moon is made of green cheese)...excellent Galil builds happen every day.

The ones doing the great builds are not on an anti-ORF jihad. They are busy building Galils because they are qualified and set up for building Galils.



It's true that "Where there is smoke there's a fire.".

It's also true that there are some people that start fires soley because they enjoy burning things down.



Excellent Galil builds are done every day.



How many have you built with your "superior" knowledge ??.

Your words show your ignorance . You probably wouldn't know Real Gunsmithing skills from a box of Rocks.

If you send your work to a guy that is qualified to build a Galil, you will be happy.

Honestly, it's just that simple.

Anything more than that...or other than that...is just madness and confusion.


Here's an example of something "more than that...or other than that...".


**************************************

"How many have you built with your "superior" knowledge ??.

Your words show your ignorance . You probably wouldn't know Real Gunsmithing skills from a box of Rocks."

**************************************

See what I mean?

More madness and confusion.

It's part of the anti-ORF jihad.

It's funny when you unmask these guys and you see where they are really coming from. :D



Obviously, you don't want to listen to...or work with...anybody that talks or thinks anything like that.


Go to someone who builds excellent Galils on a regular basis.

Otherwise...you get 'crazy'.

And isn't there too much of that in the world as it is? :D





"Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here."

-- Jack Nicholson (from "As Good As It Gets")

"See what I mean?

More madness and confusion.

It's part of the anti-ORF jihad. "


Oswald , once again you don't answer the question, you simply condemn, criticise and ramble.
I am an ORF customer. I have built a Galil from an early series receiver. I, like everyone I know, (including Gunplumber ) IS NOT "ANTI- ORF".

Your version of reality is flawed, your logic is non existant.
Go build a rifle , get splinters in your hands and fingernails : feel the pain of life.

Graduate from high school first though. !

Mark,
Your implying in your post that this is a ORF built gun. Folks its not. Mark assembled this rifle, the customer has contacted me. The customer informed me when this problem came up, the above assembler just said "its a receiver hardness issue" and no more. (Mark so you know I am not BS'n ya, his initials are HD) So Mark I gotta ask. You bitch about my receivers being soft, but you do not anneal, reheattreat, then assemble? You just assemble and send it out? How are you gonna back your stellar assembly work for this gentleman?

Todd@ORF

I'm implying nothing. My customer. I built two guns for him on your defective receivers. Both have had the headspace grow in just a few hundred rounds. Now both are unserviceable, due to your soft, unheatreated, defective receivers.

I didn't know your receivers were defective and soft when I agreed to do the build.

Now that I do, I won't accept them anymore.

They obviously Rockwell test before they release their work, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Wish it was so obvious. Maybe Todd should just tell us where they are tested, so we can find the prick marks.

Assuming they were heat treated by a real company . . . which at this point is a pretty big assumption.

Wish it was so obvious. Maybe Todd should just tell us where they are tested, so we can find the prick marks.

Assuming they were heat treated by a real company . . . which at this point is a pretty big assumption.

GP, how are the hesse receivers? Are they decent to build on or are they junk?

I have no knowledge of the Hesse galil receivers. Given the dismal quality of just about everything Robert Hesse puts his hands on, I see no reason to bother.

Well that's great, now that GP won't work on ORF Receivers, who will ammend my "early generation" ORF Galil receiver so that:

1. the bolt carrier doesn't bind on the front of the side of the receiver when closed
2. I could actually use IMI AR-15 mag adaptors?

Soft or not, I've already had this rifle need to be rebuilt once because it went out of headspace...

I could care less about the drama, but my galil NEEDS work!

Wish it was so obvious. Maybe Todd should just tell us where they are tested, so we can find the prick marks.

"Assuming they were heat treated by a real company . . . which at this point is a pretty big assumption."

The only indentations I have in mine from a Rockwell test are those that were left after I had it tested . I was concerned as the ejector was "mushrooming" and the right front rail was deforming back into an upward swell, causing headspace to change(seating in I guess; it still is.)
When I shoot it (rarely), I take a hammer and a 1/2" flat face punch to flatten the top of the rail. Cool eh ?,- Adjustable !

Even though the Rockwell result was 40/41 on the areas tested, I wonder if it's a situation where there is poor control of the Heat Treat oven and or quenching. Uneven and inconsistant Heat Treatment will obviously cause issues.
I don't understand the "Seating in" concept with the lock up. All I have to base my opinions on is my experience with two Factory Produced Galils that I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase directly from the Manufacturing facility some years back. They didn't miss a beat and the only thing that got "deformed" were the cartridge cases and whatever the target happened to be on that day.

Gee, all these supposed problems...from UNQUALIFIED builders.

By the way, Oswald, of all the charges that you could level against Mark Graham, this is one of the silliest...

I'm egotistical enough to trust myself more than anyone else when it comes to building a firearm for myself.

However, if I decided to pick someone else to build a rifle for me, Mark would be at the very top of the list of people who I would trust to do the job right. And he has more experience doing so than anyone else that I can think of on this site, including me...

So, UNQUALIFIED...?

I think not...

Forrest

So, UNQUALIFIED...?
Forrest


QUALIFIED = Able to build a quality Galil without excuses and WITHOUT DRAMA.

So, yes...both of the ARIZONA DRAMA QUEENS are UNQUALIFIED to build Galils.






There are Galils being turned out on a daily basis by numerous QUALIFIED BUILDERS.

Simple as that.

With all due respect, what do they know that you...and the ARIZONA DRAMA QUEENS for that matter...don't?



The trick is this...if you don't have the expertise...or...you just aren't set up for a certain build...just say so honestly and turn down the work.

There is no need to create DRAMA and try to blame others.

Hmmm...

I don't think that your definition of QUALIFIED is right.

RIGHT= what I think...

Forrest

Hmmm...

I don't think that your definition of QUALIFIED is right.

RIGHT= what I think...

Forrest



Of course! What was I thinking? :wink_smal



Smiths are like mechanics.


A mechanic can be QUALIFED to properly work on a Ford or Chevy...and...be UNQUALIFIED to properly work on a Mercedes.

I have had the same mechanic for 25+ years. He turns down Mercedes work because he's UNQUALIFIED to work on Mercedes.

It's not a big deal. After all, nobody properly works on everything.

He just tells you that he doesn't work on Mercedes' and that's it.

There is NO DRAMA, no blame game, NO DRAMA, no mind games, NO DRAMA and no excuses...and NO DRAMA.



Again...there are QUALIFIED smiths building excellent Galils out there.

The ARIZONA DRAMA QUEENS are not among those QUALIFIED smiths.




One group of guys scream and yell and blame and get DRAMATIC and say, "It can't be done...and here's why...!!!!"

Another group of guys quietly keep turning out excellent Galil clones.

Who ya gonna choose?



Frankly, at this point, I think the sun must be too hot in Arizona.

Those Arizona boys oughts buy themselves some hats...or just stay indoors more. They are awfully addled. :p







"A man's gotta know his limitations."

-- Dirty Harry

I don't know where you're located Oswald, but You've obviously not had to much sun.
You've got something frozen I suspect,----Something between the ears.

Lead by example Man. Show us how to do it. You do know , don't you. Maybe you could help us all build/Gunsmith the "Right" way. The "Oswald" way.

Over on AKFORUMS, Troy Sellers is doing a group build for 100 Galils. While he has the usual minor problems, his biggest setback was the batch of GM bbls he was sold. They were 2nds but sold to him as perfect. People seem to be happy with his product. Myself, I was lucky. My Galil was a Century build & it is perfect. Accurate, correct headspacing, & both lugs make contact. I won't send mine back for the recall as I'm afraid they'll send me a piece of crap. LOL. GARY N4KVE

Over on AKFORUMS, Troy Sellers is doing a group build for 100 Galils. While he has the usual minor problems, his biggest setback was the batch of GM bbls he was sold. They were 2nds but sold to him as perfect. People seem to be happy with his product. Myself, I was lucky. My Galil was a Century build & it is perfect. Accurate, correct headspacing, & both lugs make contact. I won't send mine back for the recall as I'm afraid they'll send me a piece of crap. LOL. GARY N4KVE



Exactly.

From what I understand, a supplier "d***ed" T.S. around with some kits and some barrels.

Building from kits can be a real PITA. Ya gotta be set up for it. Even then, it ain't necessarily easy.

Now...a DRAMA QUEEN woulda been on the net immediately BLAMING THE RECEIVERS. :p

I have been working on galils for 20 years. It is one of my favored rifles. I have owned almost every model. Pull thru handled the petruleum, oil, and lubricants requirements for Lyttleton Industries, who makes the R4, R5, RL5, RL5, etc.

But the issue isn't galils in general, or the hundreds of builds and conversions I do on IMI receivers. It is about the ORF receiver.

Oswald chooses to avoid answering any questions and just continues to spew out the same lies - perhaps thinking if he lies enough, people will believe him (hey - it worked with hitler).

The bottom line, which is simply undisputable, is that ORF receviers are fundamentally out of spec.

While some will lie and say I'm making it up, how can so many people be "making up" the same problems of growing headspace, bolt carriers won'[t fit (which even todd admits) and locking lugs not bearing evenly.

One of the reasons I have such an outstanding reputation - one that earned me the Small Arms Review "Gunsmith of the Year" award, is that I know when to say to no. And after a series of problems on the last 7 ORF receivers, I'm saying "no more". I will not tarnish my outstanding reputation by accepting defective componants.

Some will want to know ahead of times what problems they may encounter, thats why I have posted the notes on my website.

Some prefer to hide their heads in the sand, or simply have a financial interest in lying about the issues in the hopes they will go away.

Any more excuses? ;)

Listen GP,
You've stated your case well and it is up to people to decide on their own.

Don't let a troll drag you down to his level.




Troy Sellars is an excellent smith for certain, I have two of his rifles, but I have heard of a lot of problems with these recievers for some time now. I've got an Israeli Galil and would like more but just don't want to buy any of these so I buy AKs, FALs and ARs instead. It works for me.

But its FUN watching Oswald. He's sooooo predictable, like DABTL.

He is not arguing, he's simply being contrary.

He hasn't the education to address the issues, but he hasn't the courage to learn about it. So he resorts to simple being contrary.

If you look at his posts, he hasn't presented one bit of evidence to support his "position". Thats because he doesn't have a position, only a need to be contrary to mine.

From a psychological standpoint, its quite entertaining. Rarely can one find such a cool example of this psychological disorder. Especially one that consistently gives the same response to stimulous.

Now, as with DABTL, I will eventually grow board. Just like the "magic 8 ball" that gives the same few nonsequitur answers to every question, the novelty will eventually wear off. But for a while, its kindof fun squeezing the stuffed animal's belly and hearing it speak.

He's a case study alright. But in terms that I think is more appropriate : He's a Wanker.

The "Bash ORF/Flat Earth Society" is still in the dark, I see.


Even Century regularly does what they claim is impossible.


To each their own.


Enjoy the dark! :)

Soooo...being chummy as ye are with ole' Todd...when are these ghosts gonna appear?
http://rapidfire.targetweb.net/cgi-bin/store/agora.cgi/agora.cgi?cart_id=4508278.30354*Un5oC6&p_id=02119&xm=on&ppinc=big

The Vulcan Galil receiver claims to be 4150 steel. Not sure if that's a typo or not. Billet 4140 can be bought "pre-hardened" which is hardened to 28 to 32 C Rockwell. So it's not too hard to machine but not as soft as unhardened which is around 22 C Rockwell.

The US military specs 4150 steel for M14 and M16 barrels because they claim it dissipates heat slightly better than 4140 steel. Badger barrels is one of the few companies that makes civilian barrels with 4150 instead of 4140. They used to have a contract with Century to make FAL barrels (mostly inch pattern) and couldn't sell FAL barrels to anyone else or make them for anyone else. At that time DS Arms FAL barrels were made of 4140 steel. After Badger quit making FAL barrels for Century, DS Arms went to 4159 steel for their FAL barrels. I don't know if they are made by Badger Barrels for DS Arms but I wouldn't be surprised.

so if I may ask,does the receiver fit the bill at 42-45 C hardness?.don't know if it's 4150 or 4140.don't have anything wrong with anything being outa line(bolt) but had to cut a slot to fit the bolt.

GP,
Again behind the times my man. You have Gen2 receiver there. I know you have worked with the Gen3s, we butted heads on Uzitalk when Gen3 came out and you had not even had the time to look or build the as you put it "your property now" the receiver I sent you to review 2-3 months prior. Its nice to ask for input from a professional, but the professional should be just that and when the item was received, feedback sent back, but thats not GP style. I gotta ask a few things of you. Why in your pics do you complain that the carrier does not come to rest on my left side, and at the same time show a IMI rec and it does not either? Cause it is not suppose to. How about all the extra machining you have to do. I don't remember where I read it, but you stated 2 hrs needed? For what? Why do you chamfer the left side top? Its not needed for fit, I like that extra "meat" and I would rather not go head to head with IMI for.....well I think you could finish that statement. Is that part of that 2 hrs needed? Only thing I see in your "review" is the radius on the right for the carrier, or did I miss something? Yeap Gen 2 had that, and not a hard fix, nor did it even effect function, made for a bit harder felt charge. You never answered me about the 32RC being soft, is that really your stance? BTW, do you actually own a Rockwell tester, a real one, not a cheap gadget (file)?

Todd@ORF

Actually, Todd, I've never heard an answer from you to Mark's question about what you call three generations of ORF Galil receivers...

I'd really like to hear an answer.

What are the serial number ranges of what you call Gen 1, Gen 2, and Gen 3 ORF Galil receivers?

How many of the receivers you produced for Century Arms fall into each of these serial number ranges?

Since you brought the Galil receiver generations up and all...

Forrest

Question for Todd: Despite my receiver showing a rockwell C of 40/41 why is the front right rail appearing and acting soft ?. You've previously stated to me "it's seating in". I'm having difficulty coming to terms with that explanation. Not looking to get into a Pissing match with you or anyone, Just want an answer and solution. Thanks.

Pullthru,
I am glad you posted these pics. Guys take a look at the little pin pricks in Pullthrus 1 and 2 pic, those are RC tester pricks, if you have one on yours somewhere thats where it was tested by either us or AHT our heattreater. Back to your question. How does your gun check headspace wise? Whats your bolt look like? Without the gun in hand to look at, seeing just a pic is really hard to say what the case may be. Gun in hand I would check headspace, then bolt. HT is right on at 40-41 so its not soft, there is something else going on.

GP,
HD and I have been in communication yet again and advised me of what your intentions/stance still is. I agreed to what he/you proposed/agreed on cause I have no issue with my "hardness".

Forrest,
Go to the other thread for your G1-2-3 answer in depth. Not sure if I answered the Century part, but there G2s end at 1600 there abouts and G3s now around 5600.

Todd@ORF

Go to the other thread for your G1-2-3 answer in depth. Not sure if I answered the Century part, but there G2s end at 1600 there abouts and G3s now around 5600.

Todd@ORF

Todd, I'm not quite sure what other thread you're talking about here, but I'll probably find it eventually.

Thanks for giving some information about the serial number ranges. Such information is very helpful when guns come into the shop for whatever reason...

Forrest

Pullthru,
I am glad you posted these pics. Guys take a look at the little pin pricks in Pullthrus 1 and 2 pic, those are RC tester pricks, if you have one on yours somewhere thats where it was tested by either us or AHT our heattreater. Back to your question. How does your gun check headspace wise? Whats your bolt look like? Without the gun in hand to look at, seeing just a pic is really hard to say what the case may be. Gun in hand I would check headspace, then bolt. HT is right on at 40-41 so its not soft, there is something else going on.

GP,
HD and I have been in communication yet again and advised me of what your intentions/stance still is. I agreed to what he/you proposed/agreed on cause I have no issue with my "hardness".

Forrest,
Go to the other thread for your G1-2-3 answer in depth. Not sure if I answered the Century part, but there G2s end at 1600 there abouts and G3s now around 5600.

Todd@ORF
Todd, just to clarify, there were NO pricks on the receiver when I bought it. Those test marks were left by the company I had test it.
The bolt is fine , the bright spot on top of the Rail is caused by pounding the "HUMP" flat or flatter, that forms upon firing. Formation of "Hump" does cause loss of headspace. Realise its difficult to draw conclusion from afar , but fact remains that the right shoulder, hard or not, is being formed back .

I subscribe to this thread not because of the vituperation but because I hope to follow the pitfalls and problems so as to avoid them. However, I am reminded why I'm over at akforum more frequently..

Realise its difficult to draw conclusion from afar , but fact remains that the right shoulder, hard or not, is being formed back .


Hint: The problem is the builder.

Hint: The problem is the builder.
I see you're off again. So tell us "Resident Expert" ---Who was the Builder for the Pictured Item.

Pullthru,
I just talked about the pricks so people would know if they saw them what they were. I know it was not done by me, we don't prick it 4 times in one spot, lol. Email sent on your other qs.

Forrest,
Should be here
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28435

Todd@ORF

Todd: Since ARS won't work on ORF Recievers anymore, what does ORF charge to fixup an early generation receiver with the later receiver 'fixes' so that AR mag adaptors work and the bolt carrier won't sieze up on the front-right of the ejection port? Clearly the latter issue is more important and one that GP did correctly identify as an issue with these receivers.

Forrest,
Should be here
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28435

Todd@ORF

Todd,

Actually, I've read through the link you supplied several times now and still don't see any information on the serial number ranges of the 3 generations of ORF Galil receivers.

Nor any information about how the generations relate to your production for Century Arms...

Then again, maybe I'm going blind trying to find it.

Did you grab the wrong link?

Forrest

Pullthru,
Guys take a look at the little pin pricks in Pullthrus 1 and 2 pic, those are RC tester pricks, if you have one on yours somewhere thats where it was tested by either us or AHT our heattreater.
Todd@ORF

So the absence of the marks indicates you did not test the hardness?

"Don't be distracted by criticism. Remember the only taste of success some people have is when they take a bite out of you."

Zig Ziglar




Good thing ORF is producing Galil receivers. No one else is doing it.

Too bad that it comes with endless pointless attacks by inferiors with PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY.



Still waitin' for the Perfect Galil Receiver from the ARIZONA DRAMA QUEEN?

Yep. Still waitin'...

Another non-answer deflection from Oswald. Gee - that was so unexpected . .. . .

Seems like a logical question to me. If there are no Rockwell hardness testing pricks on the receiver, isn't that a pretty good indication it has not been tested?

I've been demilling some 400 AK kits. I noticed that EVERY part has one or several hardness testing marks.

I wonder why they are absent from the ORF galil receivers?

Still waiting for your answer Oswald---Is it possible you don't Know ?.

Just in case, you're once again, having a comprehension problem : "Who was the builder for the pictured item".

Come on Princess !!---you can do it. Tell us . He who knows ZERO.

Another non-answer deflection from Oswald. Gee - that was so unexpected . .. . .

Seems like a logical question to me. If there are no Rockwell hardness testing pricks on the receiver, isn't that a pretty good indication it has not been tested?

I've been demilling some 400 AK kits. I noticed that EVERY part has one or several hardness testing marks.

I wonder why they are absent from the ORF galil receivers?

I am not aware of Hardness being recordable in the abscence of a Good Prick !!.

I've done Thousands of Rockwell tests over the years and everyone had a Prick .

All you boys are interested in doing is trying to engage ORF in one 'can't win' scenario or another.

Just like scheming undermining women. LOL! :laugh_sma

Hey, if you boys ever want to actually do something...other than try to drag down your superiors...take a look.

Look and learn. Maybe you guys can get some training from In Range. Y'all sure need it.

Anyway, here are some photos of how you should be doin' things.


http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40143

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230



The people that know...do.

Those that don't...look for ways to drag down those that do.



Wise up and learn from your betters, boys...learn from your betters. ;)

Arguing with anonymous people on the internet is like wrestling a pig in the mud.

You both get dirty, but only the pig enjoys it.

Yep, they are loaded questions. Of course, if Todd were honest, he'd have no problem answering the questions. But since he has been dishonest with customers from the start, answering questions with simple, direct, answers that he knows are contrary to observed reality, only show once again he is a liar. (Oswald isn't bright enough to understand the question, so I just shake my magic 8-ball for his answer . . . lets see . .. . oh, here it comes "You're Just Jealous!". Ahh, thank you Oswald, for your well-reasoned insight).

So AHT or ORF tests the receivers - WHERE? Front ring? L side? R side? Underside? It would make sense to test them where the hardness matters most, such as the locking surfaces - but gee, not there either?

Why is that such a secret? Because he knows its a lie. He doesn't test anything. He just throws the same old garbage out the door. If he did hardness tests, there would be physical evidence of his having done so. But he doesn't - just another lie - and thats why there are no hardness testing pricks on his receivers.

And there is no checking - which is why standard factory bolt carriers won't fit his out-of-spec garbage.

And now, with dozens of reports from around the country of the same defects, he has to invent a boogieman - well, he has his little smurf Oswald for that.

OK, I say it's now obvious. Oswald does not know the identity of the builder that he condemns.

What a Pansy !!

GP,
You just called me a liar? Ok prick, where is your prick for when you test these receivers of mine which you build on which you claim already, what 2 years ago where soft? Now you have 2 customer builds YOU did that your gonna fall back to the "soft" issue, but blame me. I already posted the fact I would be happy to share our heat treat specs, our heat treat companys spec sheets when delivered, do you want a pic of our rockwell tester can get you that to, be happy to share whats on the IMI print.........But lets see no one has helped me host those pics yet. I am kinda computer stupid and have no idea how to post pics on here or I would to shut your d@@bu$$ up. And you come up with "I have a boogieman" to report that there not bad, ok GP. Over 7200 pieces I have made and you just said a couple dozen people have problems. Whats that 24, or lets go bakers dozen 26 for fun, percentage would be .0036% of what we've mfg, or is that just your 24-26 builds your referring to? Please advise. We can go round and round all day my friend, gets us no where, I think some are having fun reading though, lol, OS.

Pullthru,
I lost your email addy. Can you email me who built your gun or the serial so I can look it up to who it went to either complete or a receiver. What I see in the pics and think I see as the serial its RFG00x21 and the x is a low number.

Todd@ORF

Todd,
E mail sent with info. Not the Builder though, You can get that info. from "He who knows nothing" , lol !!---Hint,--Has envy complex and likes to quote others due to lack of original thought.

Todd,
E mail sent with info. Not the Builder though, You can get that info. from "He who knows nothing" , lol !!---Hint,--Has envy complex and likes to quote others due to lack of original thought.


Hey Genius,

It doesn't matter who built it. There could have been a mistake made by the builder. So what? Get it fixed. Move on.

It happens. There is not a builder in the world that has not made a mistake.

Get it fixed and move on.

(Of course, you could have fired 20 or 30 proof loads through it too. This would not be incompatible with your demonstrated level of irrationality.)

You are intentionally milking this as a DRAMA QUEEN like your ARIZONA DRAMA QUEEN PALS.


You have gone on and on about receiver hardness.

YOU GET YOUR RECEIVER TESTED AND IT PASSES WITH FLYING COLORS...AND YOU STILL WHINE ABOUT HARDNESS. lol! ;)


There never was a problem with your receiver hardness...as attested to by your own independent testing facility.

And yet you still persist going on and on about it?

At this point I'm guessin'...it's time to up your meds. :D




You might expect to see some machismo on a gun board. Nope.

Instead,....whatta we got?

Scheming undermining DRAMA QUEENS. :laugh_sma

[QUOTE=Rapid Fire]GP,
You just called me a liar?

Duh!

Ok prick,

yes, thats what this is about. Where is your prick? Either its there, or you are a liar.

Simple question. hundreds of receivers. should be no problem for you to prove me wrong by identifying where on the receivers we can find your hardness test prick.

But you won't. Don't need a picture, just say where . . .. . c'mon boy, you can do it! Or maybe not . .. . ..

And by the way, Oswald, we still don't know what the hardness is "supposed" to be, only the Todd's dubious claim.

What I do know is his receivers are out of spec. This has never been disputed, and even Todd admits a customer needs to cut and file or machine just to get the bolt carrier to fit.

So the issue no longer is whether his receivers are out of spec, but now its how badly out of spec they are.

Oswald, you are in a word, PATHETIC, with no concept of reality.

Your lack of follow through, on accusations you make, is clearly Juvenile and illustrates the nature of your superficial and inadequate Brain power.

They say Knitting is good therapy. You should try it.

I'll say it again.

YOU GET YOUR RECEIVER TESTED BY AN INDEPENDENT FACILITY OF YOUR OWN CHOOSING AND IT PASSES WITH FLYING COLORS...AND YOU STILL WHINE ABOUT HARDNESS. lol! :laugh_sma

By an independent facility of your own choosing. :laugh_sma


Then...you call me pathetic. LOL! That is funny! :D



You girls need to get some training by In Range.

I don't know if In Range will put up with the DRAMA QUEEN routines, though.



REAL BUILDERS can build ORF Galils.

Here it is again. See?...

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230



Remember, THERE ARE NO "TOP BUILDERS" IN ARIZONA....ONLY DRAMA QUEENS.

REAL TOP BUILDERS do this:

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230



DRAMA QUEENS blather on and on and on and on and on...while the REAL BUILDERS quietly go about the business of building.

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230


Gee, with enough determination you can make a 1 week problem (that you probably caused yourself) last decades. LOL!



"Neeeeaaaahhhh....what a Maroon!"

-- Bugs Bunny

Knitting will help you Princess. At least give it a try. It will calm you.

Here it is again girls. Here's how it's done by a REAL BUILDER.

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

A reading is not a "pass with flying colors" without a specification. The only "specification" we currently have, is from Todd, who has already proven himself time and again to be a liar. Even the "specification" he claims is dubious on its face, due to the huge range.

How hot is it today? Oh, well, its betwen 75 and a 120 F.

Well, I gotta get back to building guns.

Pullthru, I hope you get your defective receiver resolved, having to bend it back every time you shoot it sounds like something isn't hardened properly.

Who (but another DRAMA QUEEN) is gonna listen to a DRAMA QUEEN about building Galils?

The ARIZONA DRAMA QUEENS are qualified to build stamped AK's...not milled Galils.



Here is a guy that is QUALIFIED to build milled Galils.

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230[/url]



Notice how there's [U]no DRAMA coming out of the guy that is QUALIFIED?

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

All the "Drama" appears to be coming from your direction Oswald.

But of course, you're right as usual:clown::clown::clown:

:clown:

Notice how there's no DRAMA coming out of the guy that is QUALIFIED?

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

Notice how there's no DRAMA coming out of the guy that is QUALIFIED?

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

AKForums? Whatcha,jumping across the tracks now? Incidently,those are some really nice...Schmidt-Rubin K31s...nice,precision made,mil-spec,and function great...I bet you can put whole battlepack of 7.5 thru them without the receiver stretching....

AKForums? Whatcha,jumping across the tracks now? Incidently,those are some really nice...Schmidt-Rubin K31s...nice,precision made,mil-spec,and function great...I bet you can put whole battlepack of 7.5 thru them without the receiver stretching....


Another ORF hater's poor misguided attempt at confusion. :wink_smal

Poor thing.




Anyway...

Notice how there's no DRAMA or CONFUSION coming out of the guy that is QUALIFIED?

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230


Notice all those boxes filled up?


Yeah. That's right. Filled with perfectly functioning ORF receivered Galils.

Of course, none were built in Arizona.

I'd be first in line to buy one,just go ahead an run 15,000 rounds thru one,and lets check headspace. I luv to own a Galil,just ain't gonna buy one built like a Vega engine.

Notice how there's no DRAMA coming out of the guy that is QUALIFIED?

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230



Hey! This is proof that you can polish a turd!

Hey! This is proof that you can polish a turd!


DELETED and REVISED COMMENTS: Edited for those ladies with more delicate sensitivities.



For those who actually make sense, though...


http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31217

I guess my point is Oswald... you don't have a dog in this fight? Do you?

It seems you have not backed up anything with real knowledge, just flinging the same poo at everyone with no credibility. Like your hoping that if we view the same link 50 times we will start to believe in a weak argument to begin with.

I did not trash your character with my post, I merely stated my opinion on those kit Galils. For you to attack me personally shows that you have no knowledge of what your talking about and your making yourself look like an idiot.

...you have no knowledge of what your talking about and your making yourself look like an idiot.



You see REAL top quality work and characterize it as "a turd".

Then...you accuse me of making myself look like an idiot. :rofl_smal





You ORF bashers are quite the comedians.


Don't be so sensitive.

Someone pointing out how your aren't making any sense does not constitute an attack.


It just threatens your really skewed world view.

It's the same with the rest of the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society.


In the REAL world, excellent ORF receivered Galils are built all the time and 1 +1 = 2. That's in the REAL world.

Of course, I realize that it's different in the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society.




Oh...and, uh,...at the risk of further offending the skewed views of the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society, not only are excellent ORF receivered Galils built on a regular basis by QUALIFIED builders...but...the world is actually round.

Yes. It's a fact to be accepted.

The world is actually round.

Well said Dirt1042. Be grateful you're in Montana, otherwise you'd be labelled a D.Q. by "He who knows knows nothing".

Well said Dirt1042. Be grateful you're in Montana, otherwise you'd be labelled a D.Q. by "He who knows knows nothing".


Hey, wait a minute!

Aren't you the guy that complained about poor heat treating, had your receiver tested by an independent facility of your own choosing, found it passed with flying colors and still whined about heat treating?


So...does the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society have weekly meetings or bi-weekly?



In case you missed it, here's that link again. More independent hardness tests.

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31217

More receivers passed with flying colors.


You know, just like your's did... :wink_smal

he's just ignoring the salient issue of what the heat treat is supposed to be, not what it tested out. Maybe if he keeps pretending there is

1. we know the established standard

2. receivers meet that standard.

then we can just forget about little things like no heat treat testing, and bolt carriers that won't fit, and locking recesses that have a huge gap on the left side - trivial things like that.

Now if we knew that an IMI receiver was as low as RC 40, then he might have a point. But untill I get a day off to test the New Helvitica I have here, we won't know. Or maybe when we here back from littleton industries.

I would be really surprised if

a. the acceptable range was as wide as 5 points on the C scale.

b. 40 was an acceptable low.

FAL locking shoulders are in the high 40s, as are AK trunions. And I know they were tested because they have the marks - curiously absent on the ORF receiver.

How hard is a Yugo SKS receiver?A Remington m700?Mosin Nagant?German Mauser?

GP,
I'll figure out how to get you some better pics of the blueprint, but with all your savy skills maybe you can zoom in on the one here, check out the bottom right, thats where the HT specs are. If you can zoom in on the mag well check that one out too!

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/photos/imi-1.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/photos/imi-2.jpg

Customer that just had his check by a independant shop, hmmmmm

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31217


Todd@ORF

Hey, wait a minute!

Aren't you the guy that complained about poor heat treating, had your receiver tested by an independent facility of your own choosing, found it passed with flying colors and still whined about heat treating?


So...does the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society have weekly meetings or bi-weekly?



In case you missed it, here's that link again. More independent hardness tests.

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31217

More receivers passed with flying colors.


You know, just like your's did... :wink_smal

Apart from the lack of knowledge you continually exhibit, you obviously have a problem comprehending the written word.

I reported the results of the Rockwell test. Todd said it was in specification.
I reported a KNOWN FACT. Despite the Rockwell test,--- the steel is still exhibiting areas of deformation (soft ?)

OR: In terms you're more likely to understand : "I know I followed the pattern, but the Wool got all knotted up and my little Booties won't fit"

Posted by Oswald2001 - Today at 06:11 PM
This person is on your Ignore List.


AHHHH!

Much better! :icon05:

How hard is a Yugo SKS receiver?A Remington m700?Mosin Nagant?German Mauser?
RG,
All the guns above vary alot cause there all mainly spot heattreated (personally do not understand why this is ever done, its just as cheap to do the entire part), so they range from a mild 22-32RC (annealed machineable steel) where not treated, to as high on some to be 60RC where treated. I like the 03s that were overdone, I have one that checked out to 85RC, will never be shot of course.

Todd@ORF

his results are what I would expect they should be, extrapolating from other firearms where the locking surfaces are part of the receiver (not a seperate piece, like the SKS, FN 49, stamped AK, FAL, M14, etc.)

Of course, some of his readings (49) fall above your claimed range of 40-45, which is just as serious a defect as falling below. Let me repeat that for the dim-witted. If Todd claims the acceptable range is 40-45, then the receiver that tested 49 is just as defective as if it had tested 36. Now thats just going off Todd's claim of what it should be.

I wouldn't expect the entire receiver to be heat treated the same. I'd expect the locking surfaces to be higher, with maybe induction treatment of the ejector and mag catch.

Failing that, the locking surfaces hard and then drawn rearward, which would show a decreasing reading further away from the locking surfaces.

Hard, in some spots, is not "better" than soft. There is flexing in the receiver. Too hard and it will crack. Thats why the FAL is induction treated at the barrel ring, the locking shoulcer channel, the mag catch recess, the locking body ledge.

Its left relatively softer everywhere else.

DSA picks an average and treats the whole receiver to that. I am not suggesting one method is superior to the other. They are just different

Right now the issue is metal displacement (Stretching). Perhaps there an explanation for stretching/displacement of metal that is not heat treat, but nobody yet has presented one.

Your choice to keep "secret" the spots on the receiver that you test for hardness only leaves one conclusion - you don't test them, and identifying where, will prove you don't test them by the absence of the imprints.

Furthermore, your "claim" that there are different generations of the receiver is useless without you further revealing how to identify which is which.

Do you have a hypothesis on how headspace can stretch from a tight GO to a close on FIELD inside of a few hundred rounds, if not inappropriate heat treatment/hardness?

How hard is a Yugo SKS receiver?A Remington m700?Mosin Nagant?German Mauser?

The SKS can't be compared to the others. It uses a locking shoulder, which is hardened more than the rest of the receiver and installed as a seperate part. same as the FAL and FN-49. The bolt locks from the rear.

a war-era nagant will probably show a huge range, due to wartime production difficulties.

an early mauser, with low-pressure cartridge, will show in the high 30s aroud the locking area - except the locking area can't be tested directly, so the outside front right of the recoil lug ius usually the part tested (at least on FNs.). They are harder on the outside with a softer core. the thickness of the outer shell is important.

some of the earlier mausers test in the low 30s, which is why they are considered unsuitable for higher pressure, modern ammo (small ring spanish in .308 for example).

GP,
Again you amaze and amuze me. Why do you think it may check as high as 49RC in some areas? And which area(s) do you think those would be? If IMI specs 40-45RC is that not a range of 5RC + - (cough, that IYO, cough is TOO much range)? So a positive 4RC checked in a certain area maybe what then?

Todd@ORF

"Yes. It's a fact to be accepted.

The world is actually round."


Actually, "He who Knows Nothing", It's NOT .

GP,
Again you amaze and amuze me. Why do you think it may check as high as 49RC in some areas? And which area(s) do you think those would be? If IMI specs 40-45RC is that not a range of 5RC + - (cough, that IYO, cough is TOO much range)? So a positive 4RC checked in a certain area maybe what then?

Todd@ORF

Out of Spec!

As I said before, I do not accept your "range" of 40-45 to be correct. But if I were to accept it, then the link you provided to support your claim instead is further evidence of defective heat treat.

One can be out of spec above the acceptable range the same as below.

So now we have documented evidence provided by you proving the heat treat on your ORF receivers is out of spec.

Here is a clear, concise and definitive illustration of the intention and approach of the ARIZONA DRAMA QUEENS and their ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society sycophantic adherents:



“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”.

-- Adolf Hitler


They just "keep saying it".


"The earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat...


And so on.


Meanwhile, QUALIFIED builders just keep turning out excellent Galils with NO DRAMA.

Oh...wait a minute...here's one now....


http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

"Yes. It's a fact to be accepted.

The world is actually round."


Actually, "He who Knows Nothing", It's NOT .



This is going to come as quite a shock to Christopher Columbus. :small_gri

"Yes. It's a fact to be accepted.

The world is actually round."


Actually, "He who Knows Nothing", It's NOT .


As usual, Pullthru, you are correct, but the distinction between a circle and an elipsoid, or between a sphere and an oblate spheroid is beyond the capacity of some. The earth is, of course, bulged at the equator - at least it was at the time of my 6th grade earth-science class.

Meanwhile, QUALIFIED builders just keep turning out excellent Galils with NO DRAMA.

Oh...wait a minute...here's one now....


http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

Correct. Always amazed me, how during my many trips over the Equator, however slight, you feel the bump (only on the Ocean of course). Not good if you happen to be doing something delicate with your lips at the time,(Sipping a Martini for example ).

This is going to come as quite a shock to Christopher Columbus. :small_gri
How ???????,---------He's DEAD. No History Knowledge on top of everything else ?. Oh Boy !!.

Sad, very sad.

Did somebody say something?

All I can see are GP's, Pullthru's and Rapid Fire's posts.

How ???????,---------He's DEAD. No History Knowledge on top of everything else ?. Oh Boy !!.

Sad, very sad.

Obviously, I was referring to one of his decendants.

Christopher Columbus XXXVI :small_gri



Who, by the way, is living in the US and is very happy with his ORF receivered Galil.

It's because he bought it from a QUALIFIED builder.

Did somebody say something?

All I can see are GP's, Pullthru's and Rapid Fire's posts.


I'm now seeing this line. Its pretty cool.


Oswald2001 Online new Today 12:00 PM This person is on your Ignore List.

I'm now seeing this line. Its pretty cool.



Here's what did it.

Being revealed.


“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”.

-- Adolf Hitler


I see he didn't like being caught in his act.





Run away.

Hardly surprising.

Delusionals always scurry off to hide from the light of day.

Anything to stay in the dark...




It would be so much easy to be a QUALIFIED builder of Galils.

You know...like this guy...


http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

Obviously, I was referring to one of his decendants.

Christopher Columbus XXXVI :small_gri



"Who, by the way, is living in the US and is very happy with his ORF receivered Galil.

It's because he bought it from a QUALIFIED builder."



I would have thought a Patriotic decendant would have preferred an FMP product, G3 perhaps.

Did somebody say something?

All I can see are GP's, Pullthru's and Rapid Fire's posts.
Yes, your right, we're trying to get our own Talk Show ----Any suggestions on a Name ?--Lol.

How about "Educating Oswald", or "Histories Mysteries,"--think that's been taken though.

"



I would have thought a Patriotic decendant would have preferred an FMP product, G3 perhaps.



Yeah. You might think so.

As it happens, he's become quite the ORF Galil enthusiast.


Turns out that all the unwarranted unfair unfounded ill intentioned ORF bashing brought the Galil to his attention.

He's quite happy with it.

I suppose ORF might be glad for the free publicity. :cool_smal

Guys,
Krinkfreak stopped in today so I asked a favor since I knew he's computer smart. I also gave him some pickup slips that qualify the RC from our HT company and will be posting those soon too. We went through an NHM rec, IMI Hadar rec, and a RFG receiver. Yes it is my shops RC tester used in the findings.

Here are the IMI prints, pretty clear what the HT spec is there huh GP 40-45RC. Believe it now?

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/drawing-1.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/drawing-2.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/drawing-3.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/drawing-4.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/drawing-5.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/drawing-6.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/drawing-7.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-1.jpg


Hadar being tested, wow look at what the top tested!

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-hadar-1.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-hadar-2.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-hadar-3.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-hadar-4.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-hadar-5.jpg

I think the RFG is right inline here............GP?

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-1.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-2.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-3.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-4.jpg

IMI falls alittle short on their receiver, what do you say to that GP? Did you get a chance to check your NHM receiver yet? What did you find?

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-nhm-1.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-nhm-2.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-nhm-3.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-nhm-4.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-nhm-5.jpg

We checked an unheat treated receiver to just for fun.

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-preheat-1.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-preheat-2.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-preheat-3.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-rfg-preheat-4.jpg

Just seeing where we checked per the guages.

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-scale-1.jpg

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/rock-scale-2.jpg

Todd@ORF

interesting. Is it Odd for israeli prints to be in English? Rega bevakasha. a'khapes besepher . . . ata medeber Ivrit?

Are you taking the preload and then zeroing the bezel ring? Thus the readings are the actual, not actual + preload?

And you are getting a 42-43 on your 45 testplate?

It certaintly looks good, Todd. Will you now start testing your receivers before selling them? I think taking an extra few minutes to make sure it is right will save you a lot of headache later.

Any idea why there are receivers deforming after only a few hundred rounds? And pullthru's ejector mushrooming?

Do you think its possible for a barrel to "stretch" forward?

What kind of problems should we expect on your receivers that have a gap behind the left locking lug, and therefore only 50% bolt engagement?

Why would you get different spot readings on the un-treated receiver?Shouldn't it be pretty much all the same hardness,as it came from a single block of steel? I'm assuming you mill these from one solid chunk of steel. Billet?Forging?Barstock? Is the disk marked RHC45 the unit which callibrates the testing device?

not positive, Coburn, but I suspect if it were a square of steel, you'd get same reading all around, but there is something called "work hardening" where the pressure of the cutting tools burnishes the surface and causes harder spots where a tool has cut.

I'm not sure the ejector reading is valid, as it has no support underneath to keep the flex from altering the readign.

GP,
And you have what to say to these?
http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/ship-1.jpg


http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/ship-2.jpg


http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/todd/ship-3.jpg

Todd@ORF

How soft would an ejector have to be to mushroom? I would think under normal conditions the soft brass would take the beating not the ejector, but are there factors that I don't know about. Same question about steel cases?
I know this is only one issue, but I want to get it straight in my head because in the automotive trade that's why we beat on steel parts with brass drifts and hammers. In terms of firing, are there other factors that I'm not taking into consideration. This in no way supports anything Oswald has said, because in general, his responses have no technical merrit and are mostly arguementive in nature.
If not hardness, what else could cause this? Right now, in my mind, even untreated steel would most likely be harder than brass, but obviously something is happening on "some" builds. Why?

Any possibility that the steel stock is not strong enough to tensile forces?

The hardening only does so on the surface, correct?


Were all the various generations of these galil receivers hardened or are we dealing with some weak, unhardened recs and the "newer improved" bunch?

This in no way supports anything Oswald has said, because in general, his responses have no technical merrit and are mostly arguementive in nature.
If not hardness, what else could cause this? Right now, in my mind, even untreated steel would most likely be harder than brass, but obviously something is happening on "some" builds. Why?


"Excellent...!"

-- Montgomerey Burns :small_gri

I'm reminded of that old Song , Think it was called, "There's a Hole in My Bucket".
No matter what, there was still a "Hole in the Bucket".

Fact remains: Hard or Soft, some of them suffer from the Ejector mushrooming and deformation of the Right forward locking shoulder.
Be good to know the reason why from a Metallurgical aspect.

That's my whole point, there has to be a cause and effect, be it just a few receivers or all. All things happen for a reason, the reason is what's important here (to me atleast), not who's winning a pissing contest. It F'ing kills me that there are a number of respectable builders that have recently been involved with Galil builds. Really competent, professional builders, who deal with like people on a daily basis, including ORF, but nobody has a smoking gun to point at specific problems with the build process or the part which is causing complaints.
Even stranger is that very few have taken time to reply about the issue, be it in defense of, or taking issue with the receiver, or pointing out specific problems with the build process that may be leading to complaints. In my mind it could be either at this point, the ejector wear issue being caused by an improper build stumps me, but then again, so does steel being softer than brass. As for builds, I'm not sure what exactly can go wrong other than improper headspace, or possibly the wrong size gas port? I did notice that on the SER build thread that In Range was using a pipe wrench and cheater bar to torque barrels in the pictures. Not exactly putting a torque wrench on things, but then again, as a professional builder I'm sure he knows about what the proper torque feels like (that's my point of view as a Tech, not a slam). Point being that when IMI assembles a rifle, my guess is that there is a specific protocol for both the raw product, and the build process. I'm not sure anyone on this side of the pond knows for sure what that is.
As far as how wide spread the problem is, nobody's saying. A pissed off customer will tell 10 people about their problem, a satisfied customer maybe one. A builder or manufacturer, probably nothing at all. Even Century's recall seems to be smoke and mirrors with the whole juggling of guns routine.
We're up to five pages of speculation, finger pointing, lame comments, and still no answers.

You've hit the nail on the head, as have others. The fact that an item conforms to a specification does not guarantee all items will perform the same.
Something is causing an issue, and the effect is the same on more than one Rifle. Even if, it was incompetance in the build, what's the likleyhood of multiple people, being equally incompetent in the same aspect of the build, in different parts of the U.S.A. and producing the same symptoms.

I can only speak of my personal experience as it relates to the Rifles I own.

"There's a Hole in My Bucket".

Hey Todd - you might get better readings if you put your measuring equipment on something other than flimsy wood slats.

Yes, the issue is the receivers I have worked with are defective. Most of the defects I can correct. I can do the extra machining necessary to make the factory parts fit correctly. There are two that are of particular concern. The bearing surfaces of the bolt to receiver not aligning is not something I can fix. The stretching of headspace, after only a few hundred rounds, strongly suggests a heat treat issue. The fact that independent tests (that Todd provided and linked us to) show results different from his claimed standard, proves that the receivers are not heat treated to todd's specification. Whether this defective heat treat is the cause of the problems we are witnessing, whether is a fluke, remains to be seen. But Todd's evasiveness and equivocation doesn't help professional builders like ARS, AZEX Arms, and others change our position of no longer accepting ORF receivers.

If it was just certain generations of receivers that were defectiove, then it falls on todd to publish the serial number ranges of the problem receivers. Without that information, builders have top consider all receivers to have the many defects identified in this thread, until such time as prooved otherwise.

More blather, I see.


"It's a poor workman that blames his tools."


This can all be solved very easily...with NO DRAMA.

Just send everything to In Range.

In Range just doesn't have the endless, pointless, unnecessary supposed problems that do the ARIZONA DRAM QUEENS.


Just goes to show that you really gotta use only COMPETENT BUILDERS.


Otherwise...all you get is.."the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat,.."


Send your work to In Range. He's COMPETENT.

Oswald2001
Online new Today 12:51 PM This person is on your Ignore List.

More blather, I see.


"It's a poor workman that blames his tools."


This can all be solved very easily...with NO DRAMA.

Just send everything to In Range.

In Range just doesn't have the endless, pointless, unnecessary supposed problems that do the ARIZONA DRAM QUEENS.


Just goes to show that you really gotta use only COMPETENT BUILDERS.


Otherwise...all you get is.."the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat, the earth is flat,.."


Send your work to In Range. He's COMPETENT.


Like I said...


For all of you that don't want endless, pointless, unnecessary supposed problems with all the DRAMA...send all your work to In Range.


In Range is COMPETENT.

See?

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230[/url]


So...do you want excuses and [U]DRAMA?


Or do you want RESULTS?

In Range = RESULTS



Here you go:

http://www.inrangec2.com/

Same Here.

Wow!


You guys really want the DRAMA! :rofl_smal



Do you guys also insist on going to mechanics that can't fix your make of car?



First Rule of Getting Stuff Built: GO TO SOMEONE THAT CAN DO THE JOB.



You would think you guys would have figured that out by now.


Geez.... :small_gri


In Range, among others, can do the job and deliver a nice rifle.


DRAMA QUEENS only deliver DRAMA.

And you are getting a 42-43 on your 45 testplate?

I was wondering when this would be adressed? Being 2 to 3 off pts the calibration off by about 5 to 6%.Thats a lot. I hydrostatically test high pressure cylinders,like scuba cyls,and before any testing takes place,a calibration cylinder must be run,every day you test,and you damn sure better be spot on,or you don't test until it is.That means a check on any and everything.This is DOT regulation. And a 5 or 6% off calibration? no way,Jose'!
Is that the particular device used for the hardness tests? Why aren't the shipping invoices signed? I would buy an ORF milled Yugo receiver,if and when they come back out,but it would have to be a perfect unit.I've been following another milled Yugo ORF story on this board,and the hair-pulling problems this member had in making it work.

I was wondering when this would be adressed? Being 2 to 3 off pts the calibration off by about 5 to 6%.Thats a lot. I hydrostatically test high pressure cylinders,like scuba cyls,and before any testing takes place,a calibration cylinder must be run,every day you test,and you damn sure better be spot on,or you don't test until it is.That means a check on any and everything.This is DOT regulation. And a 5 or 6% off calibration? no way,Jose'!
Is that the particular device used for the hardness tests? Why aren't the shipping invoices signed? I would buy an ORF milled Yugo receiver,if and when they come back out,but it would have to be a perfect unit.I've been following another milled Yugo ORF story on this board,and the hair-pulling problems this member had in making it work.

Are these minutes from another meeting of the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society?


Wow! That's was pretty easy.

Just throw out an unsubstantiated charge as if it's true in an effort to damage ORF.

But, I see what you mean.

It looks like a conspiracy alright.

That darn ORF.

I would buy more from ORF, but, seeing that ORF won't accept responsibility for other peoples' incompetence and lack of savvy...forget it.

I mean, you'd think ORF would take responsibility for rumors, lies, innuendos, etc. too.

ORF must be evil if you say so.

Maybe ORF is responsible for Global Warming, destroying the rainforest, WWI & WWII, the Black Plague in the Middle Ages and high oil prices. Among other things.

You have convinced me now.

I see the light.

If some "builders" are INCOMPETENT...that means that ORF must be evil.

Even though there are many many many others that don't have the supposed 'problems' claimed by a few internet underminers and malcontents...and liars.

Even though even Century can now build fine ORF builds.

You just say something...a lie...anything...on the internet...and 'it's true'.


Just because 'you claim' some drunken yahoo somewhere is 'tearing his hair out'...it's supposed to be true. Even if you made this yahoo up, or he is INCOMPETENT or trying to 'build' on his kitchen table after polishing off a case of Coronas.


Hey, I'm gonna try your approach.

I know a guy that was married to the third cousin of another guy who was friends with someone that lived in the same town 30 years ago of a guy that overheard at a party once from a guy that used to work with an old girlfriend of another guy that claimed that 1 + 1 = 49.

I guess that makes it true.



Gee...it's like magic.

Gee...it's like magic.

Much of what appears here in this thread does sound like magic. Or, at least, illusion. Or, perhaps, delusion...

I'm sure that you think that you're helping ORF here...

You might want to rethink that...

Forrest

Oswald seems like one of those kids that used to put their fingers in their ears and stamp when they couldn't get the cereal they wanted.

Oswald, it seems to me the only drama queen here is you with your half page rants about professional jealosy and so forth. You look like the complete village idiot as others are trying to hold an adult conversation about the technical merits of the ORF receiver.

Here's a couple of hypotheses about Oswald:

Oswald is really Todd@ORF
Oswald is employed, or is a family member of Todd@ORF
Oswald is really a junior high school or high school (but couldn't be any further along than 9th or 10th grade) student.

If none of the above, at a minimum he is a very immature, insecure, and fragile personality.

Oswald why don't you go back over to Uzitalk and be the court jester for ORF there. I see that posts involving any criticism of Todd or his products get locked immediately. Must be nice not to have anybody question your vast array of knowledge re. all things Galil.

P.S. please feel free to waste your time typing out your signature half page rants...you're just reinforcing what everyone is thinking.

If none of the above, at a minimum he is a very immature, insecure, and fragile personality.




I see that you just newly signed up to try do some trashin' and bashin'. Figures.




You're from Arizona, right? :)


I'm just holding up a mirror to the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society.

Sorry if you find your reflection in the mirror objectionable. Although I understand why.

If you find your own dysfunction offensive...you could try...oh, I don't know...making sense?

Much of what appears here in this thread does sound like magic. Or, at least, illusion. Or, perhaps, delusion...

I'm sure that you think that you're helping ORF here...

You might want to rethink that...

Forrest


Illusion and delusion alright.

The thread was being used as a bash & trash from the start. Simple as that.

Guess it didn't go as smoothly for the bashers and trashers had they had hoped.

Well...that's because there's this little thing called reality.



I make no apologies for being able to see through the BS and mind games.

With all due respect, in this area, it's very possible that I am far ahead of you.





Just to be clear.




I don't know anyone at ORF.

No one at ORF knows me.

I have never spoken to anyone at ORF.

No one at ORF has ever spoken to me.

I have never sent an email to ORF.

No one at ORF has ever sent an email to me.

P.S. please feel free to waste your time typing out your signature half page rants...you're just reinforcing what everyone is thinking.
Didnt take him long!
UX u r psychic.

I see that you just newly signed up to try do some trashin' and bashin'. Figures.

You're from Arizona, right? :)

I'm just holding up a mirror to the ORF Basher/Flat Earth Society.

Sorry if you find your reflection in the mirror objectionable. Although I understand why.

If you find your own dysfunction offensive...you could try...oh, I don't know...making sense?

By the way, Oswald, before you say things like this, you might want to notice that Uxkid has been a member here for a couple of years longer than you...

Forrest

By the way, Oswald, before you say things like this, you might want to notice that Uxkid has been a member here for a couple of years longer than you...

Forrest


He strikes me as being remarkably uninformed for someone that has supposedly been anywhere for very long.

Sleeping in class perhaps?

As with the rest of the Bashers and Trashers...just ad hominem attacks. No substance.

Well, what'ya gonna do? :smile_sma




BTW, Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

(Even you Bashers and Trashers...hopefully you'll change your ways. ;) )

After much thought on the subject, and bearing in mind I am no fan of Gunplumber (matter of fact I was banned over his ego) - I can say I am actually concerned by the points he brings up.

To that end I am willing to serve as a test subject on the issue of ORF Galil rifles.

Just PM me and I will send you my FFL's info, you can then send me a test rifle. I will clean it completely to test for use of new/used parts and subject it to a thousand round test.

I will then provide an unsolicited review of the weapon for all members here.

What do you say Todd. :small_gri

So I don't have to go back and read every page of this horse shit soap opera crap, has anyone put forth any good suggestions or is all just a big pissing match?

Could the barrel be partly to blame for the headspace issue? the one I have appears kinda soft.

So I don't have to go back and read every page of this horse shit soap opera crap, has anyone put forth any good suggestions or is all just a big pissing match?

Could the barrel be partly to blame for the headspace issue? the one I have appears kinda soft.


There have been numerous reports of problematic GM barrels.

The AK Forums SERII rifle builder (Troy @ In Range) had to go through a couple of hundred barrels to find enough 'in spec' to use.

It seems that Century originally sent him some barrels that were 'seconds'.


Here's a thread about a bad chamber cut into a GM barrel.

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28776

i think my chamber is cut too shallow. the barrel times out perfect, but will not head space.

I wonder if the barrel threads can "stretch", allowing the rifle to slip out of head space?


to me this seems as likely as the receiver stretching?

chamber too shallow is a good thing. since they aren't chrome lined, a short chamber allows you to headspace correctly.

Bad barrels - absolutely. The groove for the handguard support is cut without regard for where the barrel times. Derek had one with abulge in the chamer that would cause extraction problems.

But will a gun starting with a tight headspace end up closing on a field after only a few hundred rounds from a barrel problem? Seems to me any stretching would also affect the threads and the barrel would become loose. Nor do any issues with the GM barrel address the defective machining - where bolt carriers don't fit, and the bolt lugs have no L side contact. Nor do they address ejectors mushrooming and rails bending. So while an interesting tangent, it isn't much help in correcting the defects in the ORF receiver so we can buiild them safely - or even determining what generation a receiver is, so we might know which of the defects we should expect to have to deal with, prior to making a buying deceision.

is it possible to kasenite/heat treat the ejector...like was done on the Vulcans?

possibly, although casenite is ony a thin skin - "case hardening". maybe .003" deep.

do you think shooting the steel cased 223 could/would lead to hastening the mushrooming compared to brass cased 223?

Troy @ In Range is completing a run of 78 Galils all built on ORF receivers.

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40230

He hasn't had all the neverending list of supposed problems that the ARIZONA DRAMA QUEENS seem to have.

I suspect there must be brain damage due to a high Cesium level in the Arizona ground water that leads to such aberrant behavior.

Really...all they are doing is Bashing and Trashing ORF.

Of course, Troy isn't on an anti-ORF jihad and is not just out to Bash and Trash ORF.



I would avoid using anyone from Arizona on a Galil build since they persist in blaming ORF and others for their own shoddy workmanship and mistakes.





Troy just builds them right. Simple as that.

No DRAMA.

http://www.inrangec2.com/



It's good to have a source for a 2nd opinion.

One that is NOT a DRAMA QUEEN.

I have no opinion on steel cased .223. I don't shoot steel cased ammo in a non-tapered case.

ahhhh and a gentle calm settles over the land...

Just an update, I called my builder up and he did mention that the bolt lug was set too far back but he did correct it. I asked him if he grinded it to fix it and he said no, I can't remember what he said he did to fix it but he did mention that the bolt does contact both sides of the receiver now. I asked him if there were any concerns about long term or if he had any issues with his and he said no. Hopefully everything goes well with the build.

He must have done one of two things...either ground the bolt lug(which you say he didn't) or ground the receiver recess where the lug contacts. Build up the recess with weld? Not likely.Would screw up any heat treat in that area.Any other ideas?

He must have done one of two things...either ground the bolt lug(which you say he didn't) or ground the receiver recess where the lug contacts. Build up the recess with weld? Not likely.Would screw up any heat treat in that area.Any other ideas?

Not sure, but he definitely said he didn't ground the bolt lug from when I talked with him. He's had his Galil for some time and hasn't had any problems so I trust him. He just mentioned that the bolt was not contacting both sides but now it is.

Grounding the bolt lug is bad isn't it?

maybe he lapped the bolt in......

I ordered a few used barrels, we'll see what they look like, worse to worse I'll send mine to firing line next week..

I got mine today and ran a few mags through it. Function was great and no issues so far. I plan on doing some more shooting in the next few weeks and if there is an interest I will post results. Mine in a Century build but again all looks good at this point.

Does your have an original barrel or a Green Mountain replacement?

OK, since there are sooooooo many experts on this thread..:) jk....here we go...

Trying to finish up building my Galil ARM build on an ORF receiver...

barrel is factory IMI - looks close to new from blackthorne

barrel times out hand tight at 2:30.....I assume I will need a shim/washer..copper?? with barrel timed properly (not tight, just timed, gas tube installed to help alignment) here's what I get..

sliding the bolt/carrier by hand it will close on a go gauge

sliding the bolt/carrier by hand, it is very, very tight on a no-go gauge. it will close if forced (i mean FORCED!) and must be opened with a dead blow hammer.

sliding bolt/carrier by hand it will not close on a field gauge.

if using the force of the recoil spring, it will close on a go and no-go gauge.

the gauges are forster brand..


Opinions????

From what I understand you should never force a head space gauge. It could damage the gauge and make it useless. I normally remove the extractor from the bolt, place the gauge in the chamber and close the bolt with light finger pressure. Try the bolt only with the no-go gauge snapped to it with light pressure. If it will not close it should be good to go.

i did some research after i posted this...what i found confirms your suggestion. normal pressure only. it appears that on military rifles the field gauge is the outer limits of head space.

i'm surprised you were the only one to jump forward after 200 posts of bitching to actually provide some help or a solution...what a shame..

as a side note...2 IMI ARM barrels, one times at 2:30, the other at 5:30...all IMI barrels (just like green mountain???) must not time alike...????????????????

i'm surprised you were the only one to jump forward after 200 posts of bitching to actually provide some help or a solution...what a shame..

perhaps if you didn't begin your question with "OK, since there are sooooooo many experts on this thread" you may have received more answers.

I doubt it. did you notice the little smiley face and the jk?

this is typical..99% of the people bitching, 1% trying to help. everyone is an expert until real help is needed..

Hummm -sorry - I never saw the smilly or the jk!!!!! I'm still looking for the 1% help - and your for sure not the help needed!!!


I doubt it. did you notice the little smiley face and the jk?

this is typical..99% of the people bitching, 1% trying to help. everyone is an expert until real help is needed..

Hummm -sorry - I never saw the smilly or the jk!!!!! I'm still looking for the 1% help - and your for sure not the help needed!!!


and you're in the 99%..you added nothing helpful, just more of the same..

BigAl your right about me not adding anything to this thread - That's because I'm looking for answers on building a Galil and your smartass remarks (and I don't care if you add jk) just makes those that do have the knowledge less willing to respond. If I wanted to join the bitchin I could add a novel about the screw job I got from orf on a $3500 gun I bought from Tod.

no, there were no "smartass" remarks...200+ posts in this thread, 99% of them were cat fighting.

You just decided to take a cheap shot and add your 2 cents.....you can't add any suggestions/info for correcting the problem, but you were quick to chime in with your opinion about my post....now lets think...which one really wasn't needed....

Well I got my rifle back, cosmetically it looks very nice, builder shot 35 rounds through the gun and it appears to have normal wear pattern. I hope everything goes smooth, looking to shoot next week.

Just curious if anyone has come up with a definite resolution as to what the problems are and what's causing them? I'm probably going to shoot my rifle net week so i'll report on how everything goes. Dunno if i'll get enough rounds through though to tell for sure. I am nervous.

i'm not sure, but on 55th's the right lug appeared to be machined "crooked" i am wondering if this is what is causing the change in headspace after about 100 rds?? maybe the bolt is lapping this area in?

well, mine is together. shimmed the barrel with a .010 piece of shim stock. headspaced is tight on a go gauge. seems to function fine. i ran about 60 rounds through it. i'll run a few more mags and recheck headspace. i hope if it holds out for 200 rounds it will be ok.

well, mine is together. shimmed the barrel with a .010 piece of shim stock. headspaced is tight on a go gauge. seems to function fine. i ran about 60 rounds through it. i'll run a few more mags and recheck headspace. i hope if it holds out for 200 rounds it will be ok.
Thanks BigAl for the constructive info.

I would like to present some observations regarding this discussion that concern me:

#1GP,
You just called me a liar? ...Over 7200 pieces I have made and you just said a couple dozen people have problems. Whats that 24, or lets go bakers dozen 26 for fun, percentage would be .0036% ...
Todd@ORF

26/7200 = .36% It does not equal .0036%.


#2GP,
Again you amaze and amuze me. Why do you think it may check as high as 49RC in some areas? And which area(s) do you think those would be? If IMI specs 40-45RC is that not a range of 5RC + - (cough, that IYO, cough is TOO much range)? So a positive 4RC checked in a certain area maybe what then?

Todd@ORF
No, it's not a range of +/- 5 HRc. It's a range of +/- 2.5 HRc.
If the acceptable range is 40 HRc to 45 HRc. 49 HRc is 4 points too high.
Even if expressed as 42.5 HRc +/- 2.5 HRc. 49 HRc is still 4 points too high.

#3
A photograph is shown of a customer's ORF receiver which appears to show serious deformation in critical structural areas. Additionally, a plethora of possible hardness test indentations are shown. ORF stated ...I am glad you posted these pics. ... it was tested by either us or AHT
Hardness tests 4 or 5 times right on the side of the receiver? In an area that is only mildly stressed? Is this the only hardness tests by ORF on their receivers?

#4
Several photographs of apparent material and product testing were presented. Photographs of ORF hardness testing appear to indicate that their test equipment is out of calibration. The testing methodology appears inconsistent and not in conformance with standard practices.

#5
A drawing is presented which is rather tattered and torn, blurred and stained. Provenance of the drawing is not indicated, certifications, checks and approvals are not shown, as well as material types and general notes. This drawing does not appear suitable for production of a firearms receiver.


I have procured several of these receivers, both early and late serial number. I have not built them yet. None show any indication of quality control testing, acceptance or certification. Frankly I'm rather concerned that they are not suitable for use.

It is clear that I am not the only ORF customer that is deeply concerned about the quality and safety of their product. In order to alleviate these concerns, perhaps ORF could have their Engineer and/or machinist directly address the concerns. The technical information presented in this discussion by the ORF sales team appears rather inaccurate. Surely ORF can afford to professionally address the concerns of their customers.

Thank you.

Well, I ran another 70 rounds through it (about 125 total), shoots fantastic.

Since everything was functioning fine, I stripped the rifle down to refinish it tonight. I thought I would check the head space 1 more time while the bolt was apart.

I have lost head space. even on the field gauge it closes. I'm sure I can get it back into head space (no easy job), but now I am wondering if I will have the same problem once again.....PITA..

I have lost head space. even on the field gauge it closes.


Yet another independent confirmation of the same defects I had described over a year ago.

I guess you're just jealous.

So how does Big Al fix the problem. I have a ORF receiver which has not been built on, I would like to head into the project with some idea on how to fix the problems. Can we call and ask Troy @ In Range to help? I am not doubting anyone elses ability of being right or wrong but with all the Galil clones out there I am sure some has to have had a solution to some of the problems. Is there anyone that has a Galil clone that is functioning properly that has built it themselves that can shed some light on a fix. The money has been spent on the receiver so what can we do? No need in bitching about it, it isn't going to get us anywhere or a refund. Where can I find the Rockwell hardness test marks on the receiver. I was hoping I would not have to re-read the whole thread to find it. Thanks.

Where can I find the Rockwell hardness test marks on the receiver. .

You can't. Therein lies part of the problem.

Would it be feasible to simply send a receiver in to get re-heat treated by an independant shop?Does it affect the steel in any way,other than positive? Has Geen mountain had problems with any of their other barrels,as its be alleged with galil barrels?

I still think the problem is the right locking lug. I'm wondering if it will ever "settle in"??

My ejector looks great though..

it appears and correct me if im wrong but the receivers are not being individually tested,perhaps a bad batch from the heat treater??
also it would be interesting to see a serial number range for the receivers that are having problems aswell as a serial number range for the different generations of receivers.

could be. i doubt every receiver was tested. i'm would imagine a standard was set and "X" amount from each batch spot checked for QA...

I have yet to shoot mine yet but I'm hoping this week or next week I will get the chance. No heat treat marks on mine

If I can be serious, and that is a rarity.

I would say this is all dissapointing. It has soured me with regard to building a galil, which I had wanted badly.

I wonder, and maybe I missed it. But is this happening with the ones being sold put together already?

And is it a possibility all those being sold already put together will have these issues later on?

That is also something I wonder....

It happened on at least 4 other guns I know of: after a few hundred rounds the headspace "stretched" from a tight close on go to an easy close on a field. An easy close ona field gage is a dangerous condition and the weapon should not be fired.

I was afraid of that.

I wonder how many galils sitting in closets, fired very little, and cherished by their owners are destined to loose headspace.

I gather that the issue then must be the reciever.

I guess I will not look as adoringly at the cai assembled galil at the local gunstore the same from now on...

And I will scratch my idea of a build...

Or is there something one can do to ensure a properly heat treated reciever GP?

Gee, I wonder why Century International Arms recalled a bunch of their Galils built on ORF receivers...?

Forrest

Gee, I wonder why Century International Arms recalled a bunch of their Galils built on ORF receivers...?

Forrest

It's because of the firing pins slam firing.

It's because of the firing pins slam firing.

I heard that, too...

:)

Forrest

I'm wondering how many are out of head space and the owners just don't know it???

Some have asked if it is possible that the GM chambers are stretching. In the 20 years I've been working as a gunsmith, I've never heard of such a thing, but if somone thinks they can support this hypothesis, I'm all ears.

I'm wondering how many are out of head space and the owners just don't know it???


Now that seems to be another 64 thousand dollar question as well.

Either way I am done with the idea of a galil.

I am gathering there is some error with the manner of production at orf?

It does not seem any other part or piece would be to blame, if I am wrong then by all means correct me people.

It's because of the firing pins slam firing.

One further comment...

Several semi-auto firearms are known to be prone to slamfires...

Mostly, it's ones with free-floating firing pins, like the M16/AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, US Rifle M1 (Garand), US Rifle M14 (and commercial copies like the SA M-1A), and most of the AKs (including the Galil)...

Even some semi-autos with firing pin springs can have potential slamfire 'problems,' like the FN FAL and others...

How many of them have been recalled because of firing pins slam firing...?

Eh...?

Forrest

Some have asked if it is possible that the GM chambers are stretching. In the 20 years I've been working as a gunsmith, I've never heard of such a thing, but if somone thinks they can support this hypothesis, I'm all ears.


I replaced my barrel with an IMI barrel...

Mine has the spring loaded firing pin.

555th's has the floating pin. his head space is gone also. today he began experiencing light primer strikes....

So you are shooting yours now Al?

I only glanced quickly but I didn't see any modern rifle cartridges listed on Green Mountain Barrels' website. I'm not sure this should make much difference but makes me wonder.


http://www.gmriflebarrel.com

So you are shooting yours now Al?


nope, not after it failing the field gauge.....

nope, not after it failing the field gauge.....


Hmmmmm

Logical deduction then...reciever....yes/no?

I wonder if anyone has a factory, so to speak, made one and how headspace is holding up on same.

Do GP build galils?

Can the ORF receiver be heat treated again before assembly and avoid the headspace expansion problem ?

a minor note - the garand/M14 is NOT known for slamfiring with proper ammunition. although it has a floating firing pin, there is a bridge across the receiver with a notch in it.

As the bolt comes forward, this bridge retracts the firing pin. Upon rotating, the firing pin dogleg will align with the cutout in the bridge.

The only way an in-spec rifle of this type can slamfire is with a broken firing pin, firing pin dogleg, or receiver bridge/cutout.

Or with improper ammunition.

The new FN 5.56 bullpup was recalled to replace the firing pin due to slam fires. The replacemrnt firing pin is lighter weight. This was an issue when designing the first M16 also. The Valmet M71/s has no firing pin spring. The 5.56 Valmet M76 had a light weight spring which wasn't heavy enough to avoid slam fires with som ammo and was replaced with a heavier spring. The South African R-4 originally issued in 1980 was modified in 1981 to remove the carry handle and to add a friction bushing to the firing pin channel in the bolt to prevent slam fires. The 5.56 Galil was changed later to a firing pin spring. I've seen factory built 5.56 Galil's with and without firing pin springs depending on their age.

An M16 firing pin is actually heavier than its semiauto counterpart, with a larger diameter disc on the back end - this forces it to withdraw as it closes.

Some of the problems arise from commercial ammunition using more sensitive primers than the military ammunition for which a gun was designed.

Can the ORF receiver be heat treated again before assembly and avoid the headspace expansion problem ?

I'll second the question. If the ejector and receiver locking lugs were spot-hardened and quenced, say, with MAPP gas/oil? I confess my ignorance of heat-treating specifics, but it seems like headspace is growing due to a heat-treat issue, there should be a way to mitigate this -for those of us who want to shoot our ORF galils.

there is more to heat treat that blasting with a torch and dunking in oil.

It is possible that the entire receiver could be annealed, and then heat treated correctly, but its not something you are going to do on the workbench.

GP,
Is it possible that the problem is similar to the Polytech M14 bolt and receiver being soft ? http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIID2b163.html
Has anyone tested the bolt hardness ?
It seems heat treating both the receiver and bolt will solve the problem in the Polytech case.

a minor note - the garand/M14 is NOT known for slamfiring with proper ammunition. although it has a floating firing pin, there is a bridge across the receiver with a notch in it.

As the bolt comes forward, this bridge retracts the firing pin. Upon rotating, the firing pin dogleg will align with the cutout in the bridge.

The only way an in-spec rifle of this type can slamfire is with a broken firing pin, firing pin dogleg, or receiver bridge/cutout.

Or with improper ammunition.

Certainly, I agree that none of the autoloading rifles that I've (or others have) mentioned are prone to slamfires with PROPER ammunition.

These weapons were all designed to work with ammunition produced with certain overall dimensions, cartridge cases of a specific thickness and length, extractor grooves of specific dimensions, a certain depth of primer seating, and a specific hardness of the primer cup. If shooting the ammunition it was 'designed' for, and shot in the 'approved manner,' none of the rifles mentioned have problems with slamfiring...

However, in reality, the ammunition that we shoot is made to many different specs...

In addition, many of the rifles we shoot are rebuilds of rifles that have seen quite a bit of service before ending up in our hands, with all the wear of parts (and subtle, or not, changes in the dimensions of parts that goes with that wear) that occurs during the service life of any mechanism. Some of the guns that we shoot today were assembled from ones that had lived through their entire service life. That's especially true of the 'Galils' that I've seen...

Most rifle designs include a positive safety feature that precludes the firing pin from hitting the primer or, at least, precludes the hammer from hitting the firing pin until the bolt is fully closed. Although perhaps not 'prone' to slamfires, most autoloading rifles can experience problems along those lines with 'improper' ammunition (which usually refers to ammunition that is a little too tight for the autoloading rifle's chamber, or improper seating of the primer, or the use of a primer cup that is a little too soft for the application).

For example, an article published in The American Rifleman specifically discussed slamfire 'problems' in M1 and M14 rifles, and expanded the discussion to include most other autoloading rifles too. The problems revolved mostly around using 'improper' ammunition -- 'improper' as mentioned above. In addition, the problem was compounded by the practice of loading a round directly into the chamber and then allowing the action to slam the bolt forward against the chambered cartridge. That's never a good idea when shooting any autoloading rifle. Let the action strip the cartridge from it's magazine or clip and chamber the round.

As a matter of fact, Springfield Armory Inc. included a reprint of the NRA article along with the SAR-48 (Brazilian FAL copies) rifles that they shipped, as well as with their M-1As...

But, generally, problems along this line are 'fixed' by controlling ammunition, not recalling firearms.

As allesennogwat says, I've seen original Galils with and without firing pin springs. In addition, although most AKs were produced with free floating firing pins, some do have firing pins with springs (I'm thinking especially of Chinese production here).

Do all of the 'swallowing the field gauge' problems mentioned here involve rifles with GM barrels, or have people had problems with rifles with the IMI barrels too? As Mark has mentioned, I find it difficult to believe that increasing headspace problems are directly barrel related. But 'difficult to believe' and 'impossible' are two different things. Green Mountain has a pretty good reputation in other barrel areas. The GM Galil barrels that I've seen have looked pretty good (recognizing that too much had been done to the outside of the barrel to allow easy fitting). Looking back on a number of builds, the problems that we've had headspacing guns was most likely related to problems measuring the distance from the receiver face to the face of the engaged bolt and not realizing that only one lug was contacting the receiver. Thus, the bolt face is not parallel with the face of the receiver and the measurement taken of the distance from receiver face to bolt face will vary somewhat based on what side of the bolt, left to right, that you're measuring to/from...

Barrels, when appropriately manufactured, are quite strong. We had a guy bring a Winchester M70 Featherweight into the shop that was chambered in .270 Win., through which he had fired a commercial .308 Win. cartridge. The rifle kicked harder than normal, we had to tap the bolt open, but the rifle and chamber were still just fine. The case head held and, although quite swollen, had prevented the rifle from disassembling itself in the shooters hands. And this was a featherweight barrel, too...!

Enough rambling...

My point is only that the GM barrels aren't the likely suspects in problems of increasing headspace in these Galil builds...

Over and out...

Forrest

Edited to spell a couple of words correctly...

What about the bolt ? Can a soft bolt cause this problem ? It certainly was a factor in the Polytech case. And it seems a lot of the ORF Galil's are built with surplus bolts with an unknown origin.

And it seems a lot of the ORF Galil's are built with surplus bolts with an unknown origin.

I'd hardly consider Israeli Military Industries an "unknown"

True, but I was under the impression a lot of the parts kit were 50-60% parts.

I want a gali but now..................
I think I'll buy a saiga & convert it .
Good or Bad
Curt