Recoil from Moisins

[jimmyt]

lHey guys, am sure you all have covered this before,but I just gotta ask!
Why in the hell does both my 91/30's seem to have so much more kick
than any m-38 or M-44 I have ever fired?? Is it because of barrel length and unburned powder in the shorter rifles? That only thing I can think of. Same ammo,so I know not that. does it in both heavy ball and light,and the silvertip.
Tried em all.
Oh! I just traded for an immaculate M-44, my first! cant wait to get it tomorrow, and get over my surgery so I can go shoot it! Damn, 1 more month and I should be on the range!
JimmyT :skull: :cry_small

[akjim]

Interesting question as I have always been told and you can read on the Mosin Nagant files that for most people the felt recoil is greater with the carbine length. It's usually explained away with the lighter weight. My M44's and 38's all feel like they kick more then the three 91/30's I own. About the only thing I can say is that the MN's don't like to be fired from a bench or sand bag position unless you want the worse of the felt recoil. I try to stand and post rest if I can. Also let the barrel have it's head. And have started using the recoil pad. It's not a semi so I'm not in any hurry to reacquire my target for a follow up shot. Now someone today was just talking about increased recoil on AK's if there is excessive head space, but I'd go to some one else for that advice. I have checked the 14 MN's I have and they all are fine on head spacing.

[sparkysko]

I agree with akjim. Bad headspace can increase felt recoil, and people claim the kick on an m44 is more than a 91/30.

[my-rifle]

+1

Bad headspace can screw uo the rifle e pretty badly.

[hub999]

-1

[bounce19712]

I thought I read on x54.net that both have about a 15lb recoil...

so suck it up....oh...and don't have a hangover while shooting them...it hurts worse

now...get down and give me 50....

[uzitiger]

The Soviet army soldier probably overlooked the recoil when they shot a German invader and sent that Nazi to hell. Many of the Red Army snipers were women who were extremely effective with the Mossin Nagants in defending their 'motherland'. The shorter carbine is lighter so it will have more recoil. I don't know enough about headspacing affecting recoil.

[southern boy]

that and the fact they were shooting in wool uniforms and not t-shirts.

[partymember]

maybe it was the guy behind the 15 year old conscript pointing a pistol at his head.

Or yeah, maybe it was because they were defending their glorious and wonderful Communism from those brutish Nazis with their damn economic prosperity.

[jklein_1968]

I just fired my M-44 for the first time on Friday afternoon. It had some kick but not to uncomfortable. It felt similar in recoil to an M-14. I like it when a rifle lets you know that it is there. :-)

[my-rifle]

I just use the recoil pads. When I go to the range I fire from a bench usually, and I usually put 200 - 400 rounds downrange. When you're firing that kind of ammo from a bench you really want a pad. I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else, so I don't have to demonstrate my manhood. I just want to enjoy shooting, and a bruised shoulder isn't part of that fun.

[jklein_1968]

I just use the recoil pads. When I go to the range I fire from a bench usually, and I usually put 200 - 400 rounds downrange. When you're firing that kind of ammo from a bench you really want a pad. I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else, so I don't have to demonstrate my manhood. I just want to enjoy shooting, and a bruised shoulder isn't part of that fun.

What recoil pad do you have? I would be interested in one because with it, I would want to shoot more.

[B.A.R Boy]

I use a pad just to add more lenth to the stock with out it the gun is almost un-useable by me. Also I always though carbines had more recoil too.

[jklein_1968]

Today I took my Finnish 91/30 to the range for the first time. I verified headspace with my no-go gauge and checked firing pin protrusion with the MN combination tool. All checked good so I fired 25 rounds.

Perceived recoil verses the M44 was much less and this particular 91/30 printed a very nice pattern with 10 shots @ 25 yards from the bench. 7 of the 10 were a nice ragged hole. The other three shots were within a half inch of the main group The strays were definitely caused by the jerk behind the trigger and not the MN 91/30.

Given all that I still like the M44 and think I'm going to add an M38 variant to my collection. Just ordered a hex hand pick 91/30 from J & G sales. I am really beginning to enjoy this bolt action rifle. I will probably have to spring for reloading dies pretty soon.



:)http://www.klein1.us/images/Firearms/SAMN/samn9130_1.jpg

Finnish SA marked Valtion Kirvaaritehdas Logo (VKT) with B Barrel
http://www.klein1.us/images/Firearms/SAMN/bbarrelmarks1.jpg

Also with Belgian Liege proof
http://www.klein1.us/images/Firearms/SAMN/belgianliegieproof.jpg

[akjim]

Very nice rifle.... a finn as well. neat
On the recoil pads, I have two (one for the son). The Pachymer (sp?) medium sized slip on velcro leather pads from Lyman fit beautifully and you don't need to alter the rifle. They take the recoil down to the point where you can fire 50 to 100 rounds without pause or consideration. Helps me tighten up the groups if I can keep my eyes open when I squeeze. :small_gri had it on when I just poked that moose a few weeks ago worked well and didn't move around when we were humping throught the woods..

[bill3542]

I have shot both 91/30s and have 2 M38s and a M44,felt recoil seems a bit more on the shorties to me. my one M38 has a bad stock where the screws go through it(holes are egg shaped) so the action works loose. well now it has a U.S. made ATI stock with a recoil pad on it. felt recoil is much less so where gonna get some Prvi Partisan 150 gr softpoint and use it as my 12 year old sons first deer rifle. yes i did hang on to all the original wood to put it back as it was.
price on that U.S. stock 55 bucks out the door.

[swabbie]

fired my m44 this past weekend in Nashville.It was a gift from a frequent poster here on the files which made it even better :small_gri
I think it has even more recoil than my SMLE J ungle Carbine,if that's possible :rofl_smal .3 other guys fired it as well, and each time it went off,everyone on the firing line looked over at us :rofl_smal
I.m thinkin maybe some handloads which don't cause my vision to go blurry? :p

[akjim]

Hey swab, you get a chance, Pachymar makes a nice velcro medium sized leather recoil pad. They are a division of Lyman. Takes all the kick out, without ruining that wonderful muzzle blast.
When we shot the moose, the game warden was there in about 5 minutes. Said he was over two miles away but when the guns went off he thought we were standing in a clear cut on the other side of the road....... :rofl_smal
How did she pattern for you????

[jklein_1968]

All,

I fired the above Finn 1891 last Saturday. Recoil was acceptable but I thinking on getting the but pad. She prints nice:

http://www.klein1.us/images/Firearms/SAMN/100_8341.jpg

http://www.klein1.us/images/Firearms/SAMN/100_8339.jpg

[Tatmike]

I use a Past Magnum Recoil pad. I wear it when shoting from a bench. It does not go on the gun. It works. I had an 1903 30.06 in a Fagen stock that kicks baaaad. I have also seen the Bob Allen pads that you wear at WallyWorld.
I have not shot my Mod 44 MN yet. Thinking about buying another for a trunk gun.

[akjim]

To go back to the original post, Just read an interesting fact on the M44 that was published in the North Cape Mosin collectors book. Seems like the 91/30 and other long barrel's have the extra 9 inches but the M44 has almost 2.5 lbs more weight. I wonder how much that weight reduces the perceived recoil. My M38 doesn't kick that bad but a number of guys have mentioned how the M44 is less then the 91/30. kinda cool....

[jimmyt]

Well guys, I appreciate the comments and all the kicking the question I asked around! If you are wondering I still have not gotten to fire my M-44, have had to have 2 more spinal fusion surgeries since I posted my question! Now they telling me that I have degenerative spinal disease. Wondering If I ever gonna get to fire this beauty safe queen! I do know though I am gonna have to get recoil pad because of what my Dr. has already told me about my Love of these old military babies, and the damage they are gonna cause on my spinal collumn
from recoil. He about got me scared to shoot anything larger than my RRA M-4,
or my ak's! What say you all? Good thick recoil pad cut it down good enough
for me to shoot?
JimmyT :confused: :cry_small

[jklein_1968]

jimmyt

Another possibility is to hand load some light plinker loads, this would allow you to enjoy the M44 with a very manageable and light recoil.

[akDave]

I love my M44 and the ammo is cheap.

A quick vid....

<embed style="width:400px; height:326px;" id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-1678808937730189787&hl=en" flashvars=""> </embed>

[jimmyt]

Ligter loads! Why have I not thought about that! Put the dillon to good use, dust off the cobwebs! To many surgeries shorting out my brain cells I imagine!

[swabbie]

yeah bro!

1)poop load(100 yds or so) 16 gr 2400 or 13 gr of Red Dot.You can fudge a lil bit.

2) 30 plus grains of 4895 or RL17...good for 300 yds or so

crank up the Dillon....any 30 cal powder funnel will do.Shellplate is from 45/70.No need to crimp...bolt action.Easy load..finestkind

[jklein_1968]

yeah bro!

1)poop load(100 yds or so) 16 gr 2400 or 13 gr of Red Dot.You can fudge a lil bit.

2) 30 plus grains of 4895 or RL17...good for 300 yds or so

crank up the Dillon....any 30 cal powder funnel will do.Shellplate is from 45/70.No need to crimp...bolt action.Easy load..finestkind


Swabbie

I'm looking for a good load to enjoy some bench time with my 12 year old daughter. What projectile are you loading on top of the Red Dot? Do you need any "filler" on top of the Red Dot to take up the remaining case space.

I'm really seeking MN load suitable for a little girl? :)

[swabbie]

with the Red Dot or 2400 load,pretty much any boolit weight will work.That load is perfect ...no recoil due to weight of the rifle.set up a target at 25 or 50 yards..she'll love it.It's a lil dirty,but no biggie. :small_gri
See my post re boolit molds.solve ur boolit problem,It's only gonna get worse.311 boolits are spensive and gettin harder to find,,plus they're usually tooo small for a well used Mosin
Don't need filler..the powder isn't position sensitive.

[jklein_1968]

with the Red Dot or 2400 load,pretty much any boolit weight will work.That load is perfect ...no recoil due to weight of the rifle.set up a target at 25 or 50 yards..she'll love it.It's a lil dirty,but no biggie. :small_gri
See my post re boolit molds.solve ur boolit problem,It's only gonna get worse.311 boolits are spensive and gettin harder to find,,plus they're usually tooo small for a well used Mosin
Don't need filler..the powder isn't position sensitive.

Leadhead bullets has a .311 - .312 @ 200 gr weight with gas check. The are running $32.50 for 250 before shipping. These might be a possibility. Seem a little pricey but I think everything related to ammo is these days.

I will check out your post on casting -- You would not happen to live in Virginia and want to teach a poor smuck how to cast would ya?

[swabbie]

I have yet to cast my first boolit.don't own a furnace nor mold yet.I did snag a nice Saeco boolit sizer/luber/gas check installer on e bay.
I figure it will be my winter project.Plenty of guys here with sperience,plus a whole nother forum dedicated to it.
National boolit Co.Has some 155 gr(I think) for the AK which would work fine for plinkin.

[jklein_1968]

Swabbie,

I've been looking at equipment and reading what I've got from the Lee manual on casting. I think I can pick up a Lee casting pot economically. I'm not sure which mold to begin with. One of my rifles slugs out at .314 so I would need a fat .315 or .316. I'm also not sure what to get for a sizer/luber.

[jklein_1968]

Swabbie

I was going to try your poop round recipe and passed over the 2400, Red-Dot and grabbed a pound of Bullseye thinking it was the third powder able to do reduced loads. I should have been thinking Unique as it would have been the right powder. Any how I ramble because I am the proud owner of another pound of powder that will only be good for loading .38 special.

Note to self -- always always write down a shopping list --- Argh

[Bubbajj]

Anyone shot one of the 44/38 rifles at night? KA-BOOM *FLASH!!!!* You light up the night for sure.

[Carp Killer]

I put a AK74 muzzle brake on my 44 and it is fun to shoot now. It does help with the felt recoil. Although the concussion goes up for the shooters on either side of you, you don't notice it if you're the one pulling the trigger. Looks more evil too. :evil:

[akDave]

Mosin M44 vs Small deer. It was East Bloc surplus ammo and went zipping right through. A better round would have been used but the rifle choice changed last minute and the old surplus stuff was all that was available. Still took 2 seconds or so to get the bearings straight after the blast.



http://www.akdepot.com/misc/m44vsDeer.jpg

[swabbie]

Tenderloin in the crockpot..nothin finer!

[jklein_1968]

Mosin M44 vs Small deer. It was East Bloc surplus ammo and went zipping right through. A better round would have been used but the rifle choice changed last minute and the old surplus stuff was all that was available. Still took 2 seconds or so to get the bearings straight after the blast.



http://www.akdepot.com/misc/m44vsDeer.jpg

akDave

Did she drop in her tracks or did she get a few yards of flight in? Looks like a very well placed shot. Nice to know that you don't need to spend a mint on a pefectly capabe rifle.

[jklein_1968]

Swabbie

I was going to try your poop round recipe and passed over the 2400, Red-Dot and grabbed a pound of Bullseye thinking it was the third powder able to do reduced loads. I should have been thinking Unique as it would have been the right powder. Any how I ramble because I am the proud owner of another pound of powder that will only be good for loading .38 special.

Note to self -- always always write down a shopping list --- Argh

For anyone intrested I got some real decent plinker loads using 5.9 to 6.2 grains of Bullesey under a cast Lee 312-155 that is dropping at .314 diameter.

[KCKSBull]

Trade it for a Remington 300 Ultra Magnum. That one knocked some of my teeth loose. The entrance wound looked like the exit on the one above.

[swabbie]

so what distance is the load good for?The loads I suggested are good for 100+ yards ..my range is 150.Tailor your load for the range you have available

[jklein_1968]

so what distance is the load good for?The loads I suggested are good for 100+ yards ..my range is 150.Tailor your load for the range you have available

swabbie

the plinker load under bullseye should be 100+. I have a 100 yard range and have shot them from 50 and 100 yards out of MN 44.

[swabbie]

sounds like you have what you need!Are the cases real dirty..not that it matters....Results are what count.
Hoping for a set of MOJO sights for my M44 on XMAS :)

[jklein_1968]

sounds like you have what you need!Are the cases real dirty..not that it matters....Results are what count.
Hoping for a set of MOJO sights for my M44 on XMAS :)

Cases were a little dirty around the neck. It took just a few dry patches to get the powder yuck out of the bore. Not to much trouble at all.

Merry Christmas to all

[akDave]

akDave

Did she drop in her tracks or did she get a few yards of flight in? Looks like a very well placed shot. Nice to know that you don't need to spend a mint on a pefectly capabe rifle.

She ran about 15 yards! Unbelievable,then dropped and twitched once. The rifle setup was just an M44 with the tap in scope mount (about 45 if I can recall) and a cheap Tasco that ran about 75 bought at a retail store.

[akDave]

Trade it for a Remington 300 Ultra Magnum. That one knocked some of my teeth loose. The entrance wound looked like the exit on the one above.

Local gun shop has a used one. I was thinking about picking it up. Looks real nice.

I have horrible tooth genetics and need to hit the dentist if I even eat a bag of jerky. I will have to ask the gun shop for a brass catcher so I can try and save some of my flying teeth!

[Banker Billy]

Come on now gents . . .

Recoil ain't THAT bad ! ! I sometimes use a "Past" recoil pad. Kinda in a shoulder-holster type set-up but very easy to use. Works well too ! !

Last fall my 17 year old son (tall lanky kid -- about 120 pounds and 5 feet eight) and I went to the local range for a little fun time. I was helping the caretaker move a couple of shooting benches from one range to another. Son stay on the one range and was using a M-44 to knock over steel plates at 75 to 100 yards.

Came back some time later and there at my son's feet were approx 150 spent cases. So I ask "What do you think ? ? " His reply "COOL ! ! Can I have some more ammo please ?!?!?"

Dang kids anyways . . . .

[swabbie]

readily admit to being adverse to recoil :) .my range is only 150 yards and I'm a cheapskate as well,so I go with poop or midrange loads for fun.

Update...just sent off for a used nice lee melting pot on e.bay.it's a bottom pour type. got my first mold..a cheepy lee 30 cal 180 gr.scroungin around for lead and will need some punches and sizing dies for the Saeco lube/sizer.but I'm gettin closer.

gettin ready to slug the bores of my M44 and both Enfield to determine what to load.

[the eXiLe]

Me too swabbie. Wussies of the world unite!

My shoulder seems to be made outta chalk these days. :(

[jklein_1968]

Me too swabbie. Wussies of the world unite!

My shoulder seems to be made outta chalk these days. :(

I am thinkng about picking up a recoil pad. I do ok without one but I might be apt to shoot more with one.

[swabbie]

picked up a melting pot from e bay,got in on a group buy for a 316 180 gr 6 cavity lee mold at cast boolits.I'm makin progress!

[akjim]

hey Jklein, Pachmeyr makes a really nice slip on, leather velcro recoil pad the works great with Mosin's. Nothing to glue on or wear and it comes off without marring your rifle. Pretty slim profile so it doesn't effect your sight picture. Takes the whack out of the rifle...

[jklein_1968]

picked up a melting pot from e bay,got in on a group buy for a 316 180 gr 6 cavity lee mold at cast boolits.I'm makin progress!

Whos doing the group buy on the .316 6 cavity. I got my lee pro melting pot and 312-155 two cavity that I hope to try this weekend.

[swabbie]

group buy is at castboolits...it ends this weekend...maybe you can still get in?

[jklein_1968]

group buy is at castboolits...it ends this weekend...maybe you can still get in?


I think I may have missed this one and it looks like a really good design that should allow for seating to a longer overall length than some of the commercial offerings. I will try and email the guy coordinating the buy and see if he may have ordered one or two more than he had commitments for. If not maybe I can get Lee to run one for me.

[swabbie]

I'm gonna be castin the same c-312-155-2r as you are,although I'd like to have 2 0r 3 of the 2 cavity molds to speed things along.we'll trade out molds.
a single custom 6 cavity will cost ya too much bucks!
Maybe Buckshot did order some extras..I don't know him to well,but seems like a nice guy.It's a great forum

[jklein_1968]

I'm gonna be castin the same c-312-155-2r as you are,although I'd like to have 2 0r 3 of the 2 cavity molds to speed things along.we'll trade out molds.
a single custom 6 cavity will cost ya too much bucks!
Maybe Buckshot did order some extras..I don't know him to well,but seems like a nice guy.It's a great forum


Swabbie

Buckshot let me in on the group buy. Thanks for the pointer to that group buy. Lee charges $100 tooling fee plus price of mold. You saved my a few pennies to spend on another rifle or lead. :)

[swabbie]

excellent!I should have posted it earlier,but very few people seem to care about reloading.
I hope I'm wrong and they have all the ammo they can shoot forever.
my son is gonna buy a 6cavity lee for his 45acp and start gatherin lead as well