New to Mosin - Ammo Question

[ronin]

I'm new to Mosins and trying to learn.

I got some silver tip ammo the guy said was Czech. The problem is there is red laquer on the bullet/case seal and the casing is stampled 21 on the top and 78 on the bottom. Does this mean arsenal 21 (Hungary) and made in 1978? The case is steel and appears to be an FMJ round. It was in a wax paper wrap sealed with a waxed string with a piece of paper that said:

Csomagolta:
15
vv.

Is this Czech or Hungarian? The vendor said it was non-corrosive but I am thinking it likely is.

Thoughts?

[sjohnson]

There is NO combloc noncorrosive milsurp 7.62x54r. Never been made. Ever. US made or US contract 7.62x54r is noncorrosive. But the commies have always preferred corrosive primers.

21 Arsenal code == Hungary, made in '78. You're already more of an expert than the idiot who sold it to you!

Silvertip=ball==147grain bullet

[sjohnson]

Whoops! I forgot - is the "78" right-side up or upside-down when the "21" is right-side up?

Both "21" and "78" right-side up==Hungarian
"21" right-side up and "78" upside-down==Polish.

Hungary and Poland share country code 21 for 7.62x54r ammo.

I'm sure the "Csomagolta" should tell me, but I just don't know.

[ronin]

Hello sjohnson - long time not type :-)

If I turn 21 to the top so it reads right side up, then the 78 is at the bottom right side up also. Sounds Hungarian to me.

I was wondering why the com-bloc stuff is corrosive primered. Did they think it was superior in terms of reliability, was it just what they had access to, or what? Any thoughts?

[sjohnson]

I've never heard or seen any reason why. The commies stole whatever they wanted to, so it wasn't a matter of not owning the patent or the knowledge.

There's some evidence that at extreme storage time-spans that potassium chlorate primers (corrosive) are more stable than lead styphnate primers (non-corrosive).

We (US) didn't start using lead styphnate until the M1 carbine in WWII, and didn't use them in the 30-06 or other calibers until after the war. Maybe it's a "not broke, don't fix it" kind of thing. But the consensus I've seen is that no military non-corrosive communist 7.62x54r has ever been made.

[Max-Guy]

Potassium chlorate primers are cheap, effective, and very stable (good for storage and handles extreams of heat well). If it weren't for the corrosive residue, they would make the perfect primer mix.

-- Max

[ronin]

One small short-coming makes sense if you want to rely on the ammo long term. Especially if you train your soldiers on how to care for the weapon.

From what I've read it sounds like I just need to clean the Mosin's bore with blackpowder cleaner. My goal is to protect the rifle and don't mind spending a bit more to do so. Is the blackpower cleaner better than some of the home brews I've ready about like Windex with ammonia?

[sjohnson]

Potassium chlorate converts to potassium chloride when you fire the cartridge.

Like sodium chloride (table salt!), potassium chloride dissolves in water. Water is the key. Most BP cleaners depend on water for similar reasons (potassium nitrite is a salt) so you're good to go with either BP cleaners or water-based windex, etc.

[bounce19712]

so water is the key instead of ammonia???? for corrosive ammo barrel cleaning?? especially for procrastination of proper barrel cleaning !!!????


Gaaaa-OOOOllllie!!

I done been learndt another sumptin.

plz Advise , Over!!!

[ronin]

What do you mean by "BP cleaners"? I don't know what they are.

[sjohnson]

Black Powder

[ronin]

Gotcha. Thank you as always sjohnson. I'm really looking forward to shooting this rifle. Maybe this weekend if I am lucky.

[sjohnson]

No problem bud. Always glad to hang around here, feeling's mutual.

[coinboy]

I heard ammonia is terrible to use on a rifle and can make the barrel corrode more rapidly. Don't know if this is true. Just what I heard.

I was reading an article about corrosive ammo and it said the best thing you can do for your rifle is to use warm soapy water to clean it. Then make sure you get the water out by using a clean dry patch. Then lightly oil.

[coinboy]

Wrong thread! :rofl_smal

[sjohnson]

Where'd you hear that ammonia is terrible? Sweet's 7.62 and Hoppes Benchrest commercial cleaners are based on higher concentrations of ammonia water than Windex or window cleaner. The ammonia isn't the important part, the water and detergent (ammonia acts like a detergent) are.

Don't stop at warm, use HOT! water, so hot you need a glove to handle the metal.

That way the heated barrel will aid in drying out the water.

If just using warm water, know that cold water will work just as well. And all of them will do a fine job if you do your part.

[coinboy]

Thanks SJ that's something I didn't know that the barrel will dry out with really hot water.

As for the ammonia issue I heard it from my cousins uncle. He worked at a gun shop. Like I said I wasn't sure it's just what he told me.

[ronin]

I've used Sweets for years plus other copper defoulers and boy do those things smell. Sweets work great.

[fmjacket]

There's an article I've read over on Surplus Rifle, Ted Jeo done an extensive article with tests on corrosive ammo. The ammonia is harmful to the wood finishes and in the barrel if used in high concentrations without being flushed out if I remember right. The ammonia only removes the copper fouling. The bolt will also need a good cleaning, and in autos the gas block, gas tube, and everything else that may be exposed to the gases. The silvertip Czech ammo is advertised as being non corrosive, but at 7.62x54r Net, they say there is no such thing and to treat ALL 7.62x54r as being corrosive. The Czech I've read on other forums as being excellent ammo and getting hard to find. Wolf, Bear, Tiger, and several other brands are listed as non corrosive but they are also berdan primed. I think what it comes down to is the priming compound used and not the type of primer used. The only ammo that you can really say without a doubt that is non corrosive is made in the good ole USA commercial ammo. I'm suspect of anything else. I would post the link to the article, but am not sure if it is against the AK Files forum rules? Everyone interested in Milsurp should read it. Johnson is right about the hot soapy water or water period.

[ronin]

Good advice fmjacket, thank you.

[TW1Kell]

Aff, ALL Soviet military ammo is corrosive, no matter what SOG and Century says. It is Soviet doctrine to make it that way, because of extended storage life.

A few notes as a 54R fanatic:

Yellow tips mean HEAVY Ball. Do NOT shoot in PSLs, Romaks, or SVDs. NO-NO! Heavy receiver damage may result.

Silver tips mean steel core.

No tip color means made after they dropped Heavy Ball as a projectile for 54R. Should be light ball, unless some oddity that none of us 54R nuts have encountered.

For cleaning, I always spray windwex down my boresw, at the range, while the gun is still hot. That helps it evaporate. The ammonia helps with copper removal, but the water is the key for the corrosive primers. It turns to salt and will green fuzz a bore in just a few hours. I clean my rifles normally (any good gun cleaner and brass or nylon brush/patches) after I get 'em home.

I usually run 2-300 rounds through 3-4 Mosins and PSL each saturday morning. Sometimes more. We shoot alot at the range, and I am kind of in charge of the milsurp aspect of our op. I shoot alot of 54R! I have gone through (I went to count empty crates) 7 crates since last August. That is 7 CRATES, not tins. 2 tins per crate, except for one which was a 440 rd crate with a single spam can inside. The others are 880 crates/dual spam cans.

The only reason that I said this is...(drumroll)...NONE of my guns have any visible bore damage. I believe that the proof is in the pudding. I learned this from the gang at the good ol' Us Army School for Boys! Yep, Ft. Benning way back when they were teaching us how to use all of the neat weaps that you will run into when playing around in South America! hahaha! One thing the Ranger Committee knows is weapons!