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the eXiLe
05-30-2007, 05:24 AM
The polemical journalist Christopher Hitchens is more read in America than in his native UK – but that is about to change with his vitriolic new book attacking religion




As styled by central casting, Christopher Hitchens is wearing a cream linen foreign correspondent suit and Rayban Aviators. Small and a bit pudgy, he has his shirt unbuttoned to reveal his grizzled chest-rug, known by admirers as The Pelt of the Hitch. He greets me with highly wrought courtesy and the kind of long, blatant up-and-down appraisal that younger men of his class are now too egalitarian to try at business meetings.
Perhaps no journalist is so admired by his peers, in part because he has actually pulled off the life we imagined our profession would afford. Dashing off 1,000 épater le bourgeois words before a two-bottle lunch, blagging through war-zone checkpoints, starry parties, whisky-fuelled late-night geo-politics and crackling media feuds. Yet as most of hackdom has knuckled down to colourless, desk-bound sobriety, there is Hitchens, still larging it, a 3-D cartoon of what we might all have been, given his ego and intellect, his brass neck and neoprene liver.

He is Hunter S. Thompson cut with Gore Vidal, has broken America – as Vanity Fair columnist and a pop-up TV pundit – without even chipping his minor public school vowels. Some believe he is the one contemporary journalist who will still be read in 50 years’ time, the worthiest claimant to the title heir to Orwell.

And everyone has a story about Hitchens, although at 58 he is fed up with the long-lunch legends that undermine his gravitas and obscure serious consideration of his writing. One speaks of him clearing out a minibar in some African hellhole – he still tries to visit “a f***ed up country at least once a year” – and one senior, male heterosexual newspaper executive tells me, not without affection: “Christopher tried to French-kiss me, tried to ram his tongue between my teeth.”

Others recall his generous patronage when they were young journalists, of the soirées at his Washington apartment, which these days are the DC parties to attend. But there is disdain also, and a sense of betrayal. “A busted flush” is how one former admirer describes him, referring to Hitchens’s political gymnastics since 9/11 that have led the former Trotskyite to support the invasion of Iraq and, in 2004, the reelection of George Bush.

Defending the war has cost him prominent old friendships and forged him unlikely new ones, foremost with the arch neocon Paul Wolfowitz. But now Hitchens is back in his most acclaimed role, the dashing prosecutor. And the former tormenter of (among many) Mother Teresa, Princess Diana, Kissinger and Clinton is levelling up to the big guy Himself.

God is Not Great: Why Religion Poisons Everything, although sweeping in its erudition, is a righteous harangue. When Ruth Gledhill of The Times recently interviewed Richard Dawkins about his scientific debunking of faith, The God Delusion, she found him less angry than his confrontational writing style suggested. But Hitchens is never far below boiling point. He is an evangelical secularist, an atheist warlord. Religion, he writes, is “violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children”.

This is the book he has been writing all his life, since his primary school teacher remarked how kind the Almighty was to make trees and grass green, a colour so restful to the human eye, and he knew she was wrong, that our eyes were adjusted to nature, not the other way about.

“Marx says criticism of religion is the beginning of all criticism,” Hitchens says. “Philosophy starts where religion ends, just as chemistry starts where alchemy breaks off or astronomy starts where astrology runs out. It is the necessary argument. Not believing in the supernatural is the critical thing.”

And yet, I suggest, doesn’t it fulfil one function, an innate human desire for ritual? We are soothed by lighting candles or familiar hymns. Secularism, for all its logic, offers no substitute. Surprisingly, Hitchens agrees. He observes Passover (he discovered late in life that he was Jewish, his mother’s family having changed their name from Levin), which his Jewish wife thinks is contemptible. “She never felt she should identify with anything except to be an American. To say you’re Jewish or anything else is sectarian. I should praise that, but why don’t I? Because somehow it would be banal. And I want my daughter to know what the tradition is.

“But I don’t do Christmas because I can’t stand it.” What, no presents? “Well, you have to . . .” A tree? “Er, yup. We went to Kmart and bought a white tinsel one. Actually it’s rather beautiful. Our annual ritual is screwing it together.”

He was married to his first wife in a Greek Orthodox church, to his second, Carol Blue, by a rabbi. He had his son, Alexander, now 23, baptised. He educates his daughter, Antonia, 13, at a Quaker school, Sidwell Friends, alma mater of Chelsea Clin ton and Al Gore’s son. He has taken her to Washington’s Anglican cathedral to familiarise her with the liturgy. He worries that without the scriptures – which he can quote chapter and verse – she will never understand Milton or Shakespeare.

“The point is,” he says, “religion should be private: I am not paying my taxes to support it. I’m not going to have children taught that metaphysical things are true.” America, where secular education has come under protracted attack from Creationists, is “the territory of contestation at the moment”.

“People [in the US] are fed up with the presumption of the religious and the demands they expect to have met. There are many, many more nonbelievers and sceptics in the States and they’ve just about had enough.”

After we meet, Hitchens e-mails me from a book tour of Dixie where, debating a cleric at every stop, he speaks to large and friendly crowds. “Very often,” he reports, “what you find is that almost everyone there believes themselves to be the only other atheist.” His book went straight into the New York Times top ten, “not because of my blue eyes but because it is part of a freshet of volumes [Dawkins and Sam Harris’s The End of Faith] that encourage a fightback against religious bullying and stupidity”.

It is the US constitution’s First Amendment – which enshrines separation of church and state, and freedom of speech – that is the core of Hitchens’s personal credo. He wrote a paean to Thomas Jefferson (with whom he shares a birthday) and last month – after 27 years as a resident – became a US citizen, taking his oath at the Jefferson Memorial. Even his choice of witnesses was confrontational: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the feminist author, persecuted for her apostasy and criticism of Islam, and a secular Marine just back from Anbar province in Iraq.

While Hitchens’s opponents contend that he has veered right in his defence of Iraq, he maintains that he has simply stayed true to his primary cause: defending secularism and reason latterly against its new, fiercest adversaries, “Islamo-fascists”. He prefers to be known as a Blairite, not a Bushite, he says: “Not to duck the issue. We were right to intervene in Bosnia and Kosovo, and we should have done in Rwanda. I would have supported any president who got rid of Saddam.”

Hitchens has decided that 9/11 is the defining moment – just as the Second World War was to his naval officer father – and fundamentalist Islam is his glittering nemesis. “It is a war to the uttermost with the original form of totalitarianism, which is theocracy. I’ve made a very good living out of freedom of expression and I haven’t had to sacrifice for it yet. And I think it is payback time. And it should come to everyone once or twice in their life. The hour has struck. I regard these people as deadly enemies and I want them to know that I hate them much more than they hate me.”

Would he die for secularism? He has only, as yet, received the odd sinister phonecall. “I’m not going to say that. It’s bravado. But I think it might come to be the case that anyone who believes in unfettered science, sexual emancipation, open society, would have to say they were ready to risk their lives.”

Yet he concedes that Iraq, which he has visited several times, does break his heart: “The difference between our hopes and what has actually happened,” he says sadly. “And I’ve lost friends there.”

As we talk Hitchens smokes his Rothmans and eyes, but does not touch, a bottle of white wine chilling in its bucket. Perhaps his thirst has been quenched by lunch or he’d rather not have me write about his drinking. In our more abstemious age, his legendary alcohol consumption is used to his discredit. Two years ago in a vicious debate on the Iraq War, George Galloway retorted: “You’re a drink-soaked former Trotskyist popinjay . . . Your hands are shaking . . . You need another drink.” And I observe that Hitchens has a curious habit of holding his right hand firmly and correctively with his left.

His wife has remarked that he is a highly functioning alcoholic. He says: “I have never been late for an appointment, never had to cancel a speaking arrangement. I do radio and TV and I don’t slur. I’ve never missed a deadline: you can check that. So it can’t be the case I’m a fall-about drunk. If I needed to prove it to you, I could knock down a lot of booze while we were talking and you wouldn’t notice it.” He drinks, most of all, because it makes other people less dull: “boredom is the terror”.

Anyway, there is no flaw or tremor in Hitchens’s thinking. I’ve seldom met anyone who speaks in such fluid, elegant, nuanced sentences, dizzying in their breadth of reference. His friend, the novelist Ian McEwan, once said of Hitchens: “It all seems instantly neurologically available: everything he’s ever read, everyone he’s ever met, every story he’s ever heard.”

The stories about Hitchens mostly feature his stomach for whisky and dialectic. But I hear enough about him making lecherous grabs at male friends to ask him later, by e-mail, if he is bisexual. He says no. But when younger and prettier, he received much attention from men and at public school he “of course” had homosexual experiences – “everyone did”. He says the rumours probably refer to the time he “smooched” the brother of a girlfriend “who he then very much resembled and it seemed somehow irresistible”. Although, this wasn't the source of the French kiss story.

These days, he says, he’s so decrepit that only women find him attractive. He emits an old-school sexism, a mix of lechery, ostentatious chivalry – he is a hand-kisser – and disregard. He says he has learnt much about women from his middle child Sophia, 18, and envies the easy way that young people enter sexual maturity without the fumbling and embarrassment that he recalls. But he is least insightful when writing about sexual politics, most recently in essays about oral sex and how women can never be funny.

His first wife has forgiven him for leaving her while pregnant for Carol Blue: “I’m invited to stay now. And we’re friends and quite good parents. At the time she was very cross but she says now: ‘When I met you, I realised I was looking for trouble.’

“I have been forgiven and indulged a good deal by women, and God knows what would have happened if I hadn’t been. I’ve been lucky. Though I wish I’d had a sister, though I might have been too well adjusted if that happened. Instead I had a very dramatic baby brother.”

He refers to the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens, Christopher’s political mirror image, with whom he feuded for years. Now although hostility has ceased, they seldom meet. I ask if they rowed as children and he says that no, his household was quiet and repressed. Besides he left for boarding school at 8. “He and I are slightly too close in age,” he says. “It made us competitive. The thing I like about him is he really loves railways and loathes motorways. He is nostalgic for a lost and very English idyll.”

But what he can’t abide is Peter’s Christian faith and belief in intelligent design. Christopher has prayed only once in his life – for an erection (unanswered). I wonder whether he envies the faithful as he gets older and death looms, since all that secularism offers in place of everlasting life is “life’s a bitch and then you die”. “Well, that is not said as a gloomy thing, is it? People say it to cheer themselves up.” But it is a dark statement. “There is comfort in noir,” says Hitchens. “There is absolutely no comfort in ‘Jesus wants me for a sunbeam’.”

In his own words... ‘

On terrorism Terrorism is the tactic of demanding the impossible, and demanding it at gunpoint

On drinking How do I do all this and still drink enough every day to kill or stun the average mule? Many great writers did some of their finest work when blotto, smashed, polluted, shitfaced, squiffy, whiffled and three sheets to the wind.’

On free speech There is a utilitarian case for free expression. It recognises that the freedom to speak must also be insisted on for the person who thinks differently. For your own sake, you need to know how other people think




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1855247.ece

mmckown
05-30-2007, 07:44 AM
God V Man?
No contest.

The funny part is, in the end, if the non-believer is right it won't really matter to me as I'll be dead and there won't be anything more to worry about. If I'm right, he pays for all eternity. Pretty high stakes in my book.

My Christian faith helps me to live a good life (when I follow it the way I should). Most of the problems that have arisen in my life have come when I failed to lead the life my savior sez I should.

Has religion lead to problems in society? Yes it has, but thru the perversion of man, not from Gods teachings.

People are always looking for answers to the questions they can't answer. Faith helps me to accept the questions that to me are not answerable. It doesn't keep me from trying to find the answers, or make me want to stop others from looking for the answers. It just helps me to accept that I will never be all knowing. And that can be pretty frustrating to me at times.(LOL)

Religion has been used by evil men to control others from the beginning of time. That doesn't make it bad or not needed. It just shows mans ability to pervert anything.

Trotsky39
05-30-2007, 01:13 PM
There is NO "separation of church and State" clause in the US Constitution, but there is verbatum, "separation of church and state" clause in the Soviet "Constitution." Anyone without an agenda of hate against religion, and Christianity in particular, would know that by the quite extensive writings the Founding Fathers, and the entire culture they belonged to they belonged to, valued the Christian God above all else.

Where do these dumb fucking liberals think they get their morality from? Their supposed love for humanity, liberty, ethics, concern for the poor, animals, justice, and on and on and on and on?!? They get it from Christianity and Christian Culture!!

Liberals are the disease of the West. Nihilist shit.

How this motherfucker can sit around and talk about religion being “violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children” with a straight face after being a fucking Communist is the epitomy of delusion!!!!! And now we're supposed to believe what this idiot says about religion?!!?! Christopher Hitchens is a NAZI. There is NO difference between Communism and Nazism, different shades of the same ideological Hatred of mankind, socialism.

This guy won't be read in fifty years except as an example of ideological lunacy. For all this hatred of Christianity these fucking liberals spey out, it is funny that they are the living incarnation of all the supposed evils they portray Christians to be.

America's problems today are a result of letting nihilist liberals REMOVE religion from schools. What gives America its moral center and gravity is the Christian religion, not the "rationality" of man. Why the hell does he think slavery was ended in America and fought world wide by the British? Because good thinking people decided it was immoral? Why would it be immoral? No other culture on Earth has ever thought it immoral other than the Jews who invented individual human conscience. And it was Christian morality that ended Communism just in case this fucking Trotskyite has forgetten the last half of the Twentieth century.

Atheists are so fucking laughable its not even funny. A third grader can out think these idiots. It takes WAY more faith to believe there is no God than to think there is one, because at the end of the day you have to account for the existence of the Universe which atheists can't do. What is the basis for matter? Why does it exist? What makes it exist? Shit, this is basic philosophy this supposed educated man should understand.....how do you get something from nothing?

Second, you have to deal with consciousness which has no physical existence at all. Thoughts, language, emotion for example have no logical basis to exist at all. If you think they exist because proteins interact and electrical impulses fire, you haven't been paying attention. Your self-awareness defies existence. You are not of nature, you stand outside it. Jeez, even the fucking savages in the Amazon know this and go to great lengths to point out they are NOT animals.

Liberals love themselves above all else. And their hatred of religion and Christianity in particular, is nothing more than "you can't tell me what to do momma."

Hitchens, you are not even a nineth rate "thinker."

16r40
05-30-2007, 01:54 PM
"god" is nothing more then a myth, a made up supernatural being conjured up by man's vivid imagination to scare children and dumb down and control the populace into believeing that such nonsense exisit. ..........there has been thousands of "gods" that came and went through out history.

This so called 'christian god" is realitively a new fable, compared to other 'gods" that have come and gone. it will be replace sometime in the future by some other new fangled 'god", and this "chrsitian god" will end up on the scrap pile of other silly "gods" that were once worshipped.

as for you silly comment about " And it was "christian" morality that ended communism"

that is the biggest load of bullshit.......what ended it is we had the power and the resources to out perform and defeat a potential enemy by making it more likely that they would be destroyed totally then they could do to us.......it's more to do with self presavation and instilling more fear in them then morality.

sjohnson
05-30-2007, 02:10 PM
Small minds cannot fathom something they cannot touch. They find succor in despising that which most frightens them.

Pity those for whom the world must remain forever flat.

scaldwellk
05-30-2007, 04:29 PM
The deciples where with Christ and seen his works yet doubted him at times. When he was resurrected there was no doubt that he is who he said he was. Remember Christ said that his deciples had seen him and yet had doupts, so think how great the reward will be for those who have not seen yet believe?

I agree with the part about religion being evil. Christ told us that all religions are evil. He then told us that the only true religion is pure religion that gives all glory to the father.

Anyone that says God the trinity (Father, Son, and HolySpirit) is not real I challenge them to prove God wrong.

I study proficy and I can tell you that with all the things coming to light that if you do not believe, you will. As it was in the days of Noah and Sodum and Gomorah, so shall be be just before the return of Christ.

16r40
05-30-2007, 05:13 PM
Anyone that says God the trinity (Father, Son, and HolySpirit) is not real I challenge them to prove God wrong.




it's not the non-believers that have to prove a "god" exist......you are the ones the say he exist you have the burden of proof ........and there hasn't been one instant of any proof of a "god".

"god" only exist in the weak minded who have been brainwashed into believing they will go on living in some paradise after they die. Humans are the only animal on the planet that know they are here for only a short time and then cease to exist, so when some cult leader come along and says, "believe in me and you will live forever" that sounds good to them so they follow this nut case and spread his "message" like a cancerous tumor and infect every weak minded fool that will listen to them.

scaldwellk
05-30-2007, 06:47 PM
it's not the non-believers that have to prove a "god" exist......you are the ones the say he exist you have the burden of proof ........and there hasn't been one instant of any proof of a "god".

"god" only exist in the weak minded who have been brainwashed into believing they will go on living in some paradise after they die. Humans are the only animal on the planet that know they are here for only a short time and then cease to exist, so when some cult leader come along and says, "believe in me and you will live forever" that sounds good to them so they follow this nut case and spread his "message" like a cancerous tumor and infect every weak minded fool that will listen to them.


And my point is proven. Seems nonbelievers always pull this one.

I can say this. The Jewish people are good to show that God is real. With the events of history they should not be here. Nation after nation has come against them, but yet they are here today. They where promised by God to be protected and they have been. They will swarm around Isreal like bees, but she shall not be harmed as a nation. They are the apple (pupil of the eye) of Gods eye. All nations that have turned agaist the Jewish people have fallen. Bless my people and you shall be blessed, but harm my people and you shall be harmed.

16r40
05-30-2007, 08:27 PM
And my point is proven. Seems nonbelievers always pull this one.

only point you prove is mine, you can't come up with one instant of a "god" even existing. you are just do a slight of hand and smoking mirror by that comment to deflect what you know deep down inside, but can't bring yourself to accept, that the entire concept of a "god" is pure manmade hogwash. but hey whatever makes you happy, I suspect that there are some adults who believe that the easter bunny and santa claus are real and that there is a real whinny the pooh that lives in a place called the 100 acres woods



I can say this. The Jewish people are good to show that God is real. With the events of history they should not be here. Nation after nation has come against them, but yet they are here today. They where promised by God to be protected and they have been. They will swarm around Isreal like bees, but she shall not be harmed as a nation. They are the apple (pupil of the eye) of Gods eye. All nations that have turned agaist the Jewish people have fallen. Bless my people and you shall be blessed, but harm my people and you shall be harmed.


the jews are not any proof that a "god" exisit........it proves that they are more organized and better trained and have far superior weaponry that we gave or sold them compared to the 4th rate mediocre arab countries that surround them. I doubt that they would preveal if a first rate military force attacked them

7.62Blaster
05-30-2007, 09:18 PM
"Looking up to the sky and searching beneath the ground"

mmckown
05-30-2007, 09:24 PM
16R40 You don't believe in a God. That's fine with me. I am not going to shove my beliefs down your throat.

What is going to happen is you are going to have to deal with those whose moral and belief system is based on their religious affiliation.

There is no proof that a God exists, just as there is no proof there is no God.

I can tell you this, most good works in the world are performed by religious groups. And like it or not most are performed by various Christian groups.

I choose to believe, you do not. What diff is it to you?

7.62Blaster
05-30-2007, 09:26 PM
16R40 You don't believe in a God. That's fine with me. I am not going to shove my beliefs down your throat.

What is going to happen is you are going to have to deal with those who moral and belief system is based on their religious affiliation.

There is no proof that a God exists, just as there is no proof there is no God.

I can tell you this, most good works in the world are performed by religious groups. And like it or not they are performed by various Christian groups.

I choose to believe, you do not. What diff is it to you?

His reading of "Freedom of religion" is more like "Freedom to deny others freedom of religon".

16r40
05-30-2007, 10:24 PM
His reading of "Freedom of religion" is more like "Freedom to deny others freedom of religon".


you're a fuckin' moron, but coming from you it doesn't surpise me that your pea brain would think that........... I am not advocating or denying someone from believing or worshipping in whatever they choose to believe or worship, as long as they don't force it on people.......I simply stated the concept of a "god" is man made and has no basis in fact.......it's all based on fiction. there has been litterly thousands of "gods" throughout recording history with each culture believing that their "god" was the real thing, until that is someone came along and forced that 'god" out to worship another one.........


so here is a question for you, what makes you believe that the "god" you worship is a "true god"? it could have been one of the thousand of other "gods" that got thrown on the scrap pile....it would be pretty funny when you die and you think you are going to meet up with "jesus", only to meet up with osiris, and told, "oh sorry but you have chosen badly, don't let the door hit you where I split you"

7.62Blaster
05-31-2007, 07:54 AM
The ranting of an egotistical lunatic.

"god" only exist in the weak minded who

I bet you feel superior to us simpletons, huh, BIG boy?

Trotsky39
05-31-2007, 12:21 PM
You are the poster child for the utter dripping hate and venom which spews forth from the so called enlightened atheists, and talk about closed minds and total nihilism.

The new religion you speak of is atheism, and you speak like a total zealot, the new breed of al Qaueda atheist created by Marx. What you represent it not enlightened understanding, but a total revolt and rejection of culture based on ego and contempt for your fellow man and cultural heritage.

It takes WAY more faith to think the universe just IS without something (God) creating it. All you have is a big question mark. You don't have an explanation for the existence and can not rule out the possibility the universe was created by God. I don't have that problem. Jesus Christ was a historical figure and did not set out to allow himself to marry more women than his followers; marry nine year old girls; appoint himself Emperor; require his followers rape, pillage, and murder; say the moon was his sister and the Sun his brother; steal fire from Loki or Spiderman; require human sacrifice; wrestle a snake to appease the shadow death; sleep with a Jaguar to make the rivers flow; or command rounding up the productive working members of society and putting them into camps for death and torture.

What Jesus was concerned about was how you could live a valuable life by concentrating on becoming a better person, caring for and loving your fellow man, and believing in God so that you may live forever in the house of God. Why? Because He values life, conscious human life, so much it is necessary to save it and also hold it accountable for the sum actions of our lives. Your life is not to be pissed away. It is a gift.

Wow, that's some evil religion invented by mankind. And besides that, its all completely voluntary. You'll eventually have to answer for your life, but it is your choice to believe or not.

As far as there being new gods and old gods, all made up by man, you need to ask yourself what a religion invented by man would look like. Perhaps islam? Put down the Dan Brown books, there was no conspiracy to control the world and suppress the truth that they just made it all up one afternoon over bagels and Turkish coffee. If there was, it would look a lot more like a mafioso/Soviet style morality with the appropriate governing elite.

The God of Abraham reveals himself to mankind at certain points in history and has enhanced the value and quality of life.

Apparently you weren't either alive or paying attention during the Cold War because we defeated Communism first and foremost CULTURALLY through Judeao/Christian values which are the backbone of Western Culture.

Did we ever fire a shot at the Warsaw Pact? No. Did the defeat of Communism require military strength? Yes. But everyone on the planet except fellow travelers, liberals, university students in liberal arts departments, and communists understood the conflict was ideological and religious in nature.

Atheist communists with there new god of the State, "science," ego, and contempt for mankind, versus Western Democratic culture with its respect for human life which would not exist without Christianity and Judaism. If you had ever been to the Eastern Block you would know Reagan is revered because he confronted and challenged the Soviets culturally by pointing out the inhumanity of Communism, not because he increased defense spending. "Mr Gorbachev, tare down that wall"......not "tare down that wall OR ELSE."

How it must gall you to know your whole existence is the result of Christianity, if not out right, then in utter opposition to it. Very funny.

Even if deep down in my heart I knew you were right that there was no God, I would still side with Christianity because in the Bible there is way more hope, justice, humanity, and morality than anything ever advanced by atheists, as your hate filled posts exemplify.

And if you think atheism doesn't have logical historical and cultural implications, you are too stupid for words. Atheism produces its own nihilistic morality, anti-values.

scaldwellk
05-31-2007, 02:26 PM
Trotsky39 WOW. I loved reading that post you wrote, I learned something there myself.

I think why most people that say there is no God can not bring themselves to trying to prove there is no God is that they know they can not. Everyone that has ever tried was proven wrong and most became Christian. As far as the oldest God, it is the Christian God. Is it not funny how the Jewish people and Christians worship the same God? Christians are only different because we are able to know whom Christ is.

I put my trust in this. In the begining was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. Through him all things were created. Christ is the word and the rock that I myself believe in and lean on.

As a Christian all I can do is deliver the message and stand up for it. I can not convert nor am I to try. The HolySpirt is the one that does that. We are not to be mad at nonbelievers, but to be sad for them.

Some things for thought.
1) We can not see love, but we can see the effects of it.
2) We can not see hate, but we can see the effects of it.
Just because we can not see them does not mean they are not real.
I see the effects of things God does for me and others and therefore I believe more.

16r40
05-31-2007, 05:27 PM
I think why most people that say there is no God can not bring themselves to trying to prove there is no God is that they know they can not.

again, you have rock for brains,......that has got to be the most stupidest and utterly nonsense comment ever made........where did you come up with that stupid notion? the burden of proof of something existing is on the person who claims it exist.




reading the brainwashed drible you people write about a non-exisant entity and his side kick "jesus" only proves that fools will believe anything that is fed to them without proof.

there is a good reason why "priest" and "religous leaders" refer to you people as a flock, a bunch of gullible sheep

But hey, if you feel good about believing in a man made fairy tale, and it makes you feel good, then have at it........if you guys are that gullible then I have some prime land in southern fl. I can sell you real cheap

scaldwellk
05-31-2007, 06:21 PM
Thank you sir.

7.62Blaster
05-31-2007, 09:42 PM
again, you have rock for brains,......that has got to be the most stupidest and utterly nonsense comment ever made........where did you come up with that stupid notion? the burden of proof of something existing is on the person who claims it exist.




reading the brainwashed drible you people write about a non-exisant entity and his side kick "jesus" only proves that fools will believe anything that is fed to them without proof.

there is a good reason why "priest" and "religous leaders" refer to you people as a flock, a bunch of gullible sheep

But hey, if you feel good about believing in a man made fairy tale, and it makes you feel good, then have at it........if you guys are that gullible then I have some prime land in southern fl. I can sell you real cheap


Who was right in the civil war?

No bullshit, gimme the straight shit boy, north or south.

Scaldwellk, as you metioned, as I've gotten older, I've seen Gods work in places I never have before.

Interesting enough, it's the athiests who always seem to be the biggest zealots.

Geist762
06-01-2007, 06:32 AM
QuoteTrot:
"Apparently you weren't either alive or paying attention during the Cold War
because we defeated Communism first and foremost CULTURALLY through
Judeao/Christian values which are the backbone of Western Culture."

---------------------------------------------

If communism's dead, where are the dead communists?
Judeo-Christian is a mondern term. Our forefathers would
not put an anti-christian religion and Christiantity in any
hyphenated combination, irregardless of their claim to
chosenality which doesn't fit prophecy. They are not
a multitude of nations, and they do not hear his voice,
therefore they are not his sheep. But EVERYONE will
get his chance to kneel and bow before God Allmighty,
Jesus Christ and confess that he is Yahweh / Lord.

So don't sweat it. We are not ALL equal!
He says that some vessels are made for destruction.
Some tribes are destined for annihilation, also.
Obediah for instance.

Ain't God good!

16r40
06-01-2007, 07:21 AM
Who was right in the civil war?

you "christians' always say that "god" is on the side of right, so unless you are going to go against your 'god's" choice and question his infinate wisdom, which no real "christian would even think of doing, lest you be thrown in the depths of hell and burn for all eternity for blasphemy, the answer is pretty straight forward......can I get a "amen" :laugh_sma


Scaldwellk, as you metioned, as I've gotten older, I've seen Gods work in places I never have before.

a more plausible explination is that you are entering into senility, and seeing things that aren't there

mmckown
06-01-2007, 08:14 AM
One of the funniest people I have ever seen was George Carlin. I never agreed with his politics or stance on religion (very much like 16r40's stand on religion) but he was topical and funny.

That can no longer be said. I saw hinm in concert a few months ago and he is much like most old non believers I have met, mean spirited and bitter.

Understandable. If you are forced by your beliefs to see the world, and in fact your own life, as a hopeless mess, filled with pain, destruction and then nothingness, it must lead to some pretty deep depression.

But if you really don't believe, that is your business. In life, were you my friend, I might try to teach you, out of concern for you. Tell me to drop it, I would, it is your choice. Over time the friendship would probably fail, as my beliefs are as big a part of me as anything else. Comments like the ones above would doom the friendship.

Calling people senile old fools doesn't win arguements, it just makes you a jerk.

scaldwellk
06-01-2007, 12:30 PM
you "christians' always say that "god" is on the side of right, so unless you are going to go against your 'god's" choice and question his infinate wisdom, which no real "christian would even think of doing, lest you be thrown in the depths of hell and burn for all eternity for blasphemy, the answer is pretty straight forward......can I get a "amen" :laugh_sma



a more plausible explination is that you are entering into senility, and seeing things that aren't there

Wrong. God does not take sides, you have to take his side as a Christian.

7.62Blaster
06-01-2007, 03:41 PM
you "christians' always say that "god" is on the side of right, so unless you are going to go against your 'god's" choice and question his infinate wisdom, which no real "christian would even think of doing, lest you be thrown in the depths of hell and burn for all eternity for blasphemy, the answer is pretty straight forward......can I get a "amen" :laugh_sma



a more plausible explination is that you are entering into senility, and seeing things that aren't there

Damn boy, I asked who was right, north or south, nowhere did I mention religion in that sentence.

Again, who in the fuck was right, north or south.

It is really a simple question.

7.62Blaster
06-01-2007, 03:45 PM
I've debated with many an athiest(I debated, they more often than not just gave smirks and smart assed remarks, just like 16r40)

In the end, it has always come down to, in general:

"Why don't I have a mercedes with 20" spinnerz?, and he does? it's not fair!, wah! wah! waaaaah!"

mmckown
06-01-2007, 04:33 PM
"Why don't I have a mercedes with 20" spinnerz?, and he does?"

Ummmm... Maybe becuase I have some taste and he doesn't?

16r40
06-01-2007, 05:10 PM
if I was going to believe in a "god" it certainly wouldn't be a guy nailed to a piece of lumber in a diaper.........I would have to go with bacchus, "god" of wine and partying, now there is a "god" that I can get to like :laugh_sma

Illuminos_9
06-01-2007, 05:40 PM
if I was going to believe in a "god" it certainly wouldn't be a guy nailed to a piece of lumber in a diaper.........I would have to go with bacchus, "god" of wine and partying, now there is a "god" that I can get to like :laugh_sma



Isn't it funny how you piss all over Jesus, our Christ, and then count your days on a calendar based solely upon His existence.

Just like the majority of Christian people, you are a hypocrite.

I_9

7.62Blaster
06-01-2007, 06:58 PM
Are you ever going to get to my question, 16r40?.

7.62Blaster
06-01-2007, 07:07 PM
Just like the majority of Christian people, you are a hypocrite.

Unfortunatley, you, just like 16r40 must not get out of the house much.

Damn near every Christian(almost always conservative) that I have ever met, that would be tens of thousands in my time, has been a good meaning, kind, a generous person. Period.

The socialists would have you believe we are all fat greasy sleazeballs thumping you over the head with our Bibles demanding you believe in Christ.

Just like creatures of folk lore, these Bible thumping, radical Christains are rarely seen. Except by those who rarely get out of the house and into the real world.

motorhead
06-01-2007, 07:51 PM
speaking of bible thumping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6WjhzzEHmE&NR=1

7.62Blaster
06-01-2007, 08:27 PM
speaking of bible thumping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6WjhzzEHmE&NR=1

:rolleyes:

Illuminos_9
06-01-2007, 08:40 PM
Unfortunatley, you, just like 16r40 must not get out of the house much.

Damn near every Christian(almost always conservative) that I have ever met, that would be tens of thousands in my time, has been a good meaning, kind, a generous person. Period.

The socialists would have you believe we are all fat greasy sleazeballs thumping you over the head with our Bibles demanding you believe in Christ.

Just like creatures of folk lore, these Bible thumping, radical Christains are rarely seen. Except by those who rarely get out of the house and into the real world.


It's easy to justify selfish behavior under the guise of "good intentions."

Although there are still some Christians who fit your description, they are the vast minority. If they weren't, Mother Theresa would not have been such a beacon of hope... She would have been just one of many.

No. The fact is, most of the Christian flock feel they are superior to all others because they fill the collection plates three times per service and bring a covered dish to their post-sermon fellowship banquet.

Then, feeling all high and mighty, they laud the Jew as God's chosen people, all the while condemning any other faith who discounts Jesus as just another human.

My obvious prejudices aside, how do you justify that inconsistency?

Personally, I place my faith in Jesus and God. Jesus, for his example of how to live peacefully among others. God (the actual Creator, by whatever method and whatever name), for his/her pure balance. Light & Dark. Good & Evil, Etc. Etc.

I don't rely on human interpretations of a watered-down, dumbed-down, infected fictitious literary work to enjoy a deep faith in Christ. Nor do I depend on group-think to form my values or navigate my course through life.

I will rend unto God and Jesus... Caesar can rend for himself. :angel1:

I_9

7.62Blaster
06-01-2007, 08:49 PM
It's easy to justify selfish behavior under the guise of "good intentions."

Although there are still some Christians who fit your description, they are the vast minority. If they weren't, Mother Theresa would not have been such a beacon of hope... She would have been just one of many.

No. The fact is, most of the Christian flock feel they are superior to all others because they fill the collection plates three times per service and bring a covered dish to their post-sermon fellowship banquet.

Then, feeling all high and mighty, they laud the Jew as God's chosen people, all the while condemning any other faith who discounts Jesus as just another human.

My obvious prejudices aside, how do you justify that inconsistency?

Again, please show me these people. Lived in 6 states, been to hundreds of churches, have yet to see these elusive creatures you speak of. Sure, I see some who feel sad for non believers, but I've never heard one christian demand they be beheaded for their disbelief.

Personally, I place my faith in Jesus and God. Jesus, for his example of how to live peacefully among others. God (the actual Creator, by whatever method and whatever name), for his/her pure balance. Light & Dark. Good & Evil, Etc. Etc.


I don't rely on human interpretations of a watered-down, dumbed-down, infected fictitious literary work to enjoy a deep faith in Christ. Nor do I depend on group-think to form my values or navigate my course through life.

Again, you've been mislead, the Bible has, in reality, been altered very little. Please put the Dan Brown book's down...

I will rend unto God and Jesus... Caesar can rend for himself. :angel1:

I_9

Illuminos_9
06-01-2007, 09:38 PM
Again, please show me these people. Lived in 6 states, been to hundreds of churches, have yet to see these elusive creatures you speak of. Sure, I see some who feel sad for non believers, but I've never heard one christian demand they be beheaded for their disbelief.


Just because you use words like "elusive" doesn't mean they are hard to find. Just go to any Republican gathering whose topic of discussion is the Middle East and our involvement therein. You will find perfect examples of the so-called "Christians" that I speak of.



Again, you've been mislead, the Bible has, in reality, been altered very little. Please put the Dan Brown book's down...


Not sure who Dan Brown is but the Holy Bible was written by selfish people with selfish agendas. Just read your good book with a scrutinous eye and you will see the obvious tools of manipulation.

I mean, Who said God spoke to Moses? Moses? Who said Jesus is the only way to the Celestial Kingdom? Jesus? Have you heard these claims from the actual sources or do you rely on a NKJ version of the Bible and a sweaty preacher to tell you so?


Honestly, if your Christian experience has been as pure and righteous as you claim, good for you. I doubt your sincerity and believe you are just trying to defend your own status, but my skepticism doesn't matter.

All that matters is striving to live as we have been taught Jesus did, thereby *earning our way into Heaven.

*Please refer to my previous comment regarding Mother Theresa and don't assume, like the majority of the Christian flock, that donating cash to the finally demised Falwell (or other such charletains) will get you anywhere but in debt.

When faced with any choice, ask yourself WWJD? And then do it without hesitation or complaint of personal sacrifice... Like Mother Theresa (sad that she is the only modern example for me to cite.) Anything less is "Do as I say, not as I do" blasphemy of the highest order.


I_9

sjohnson
06-01-2007, 10:07 PM
Pompous.

Ass.

Look who's again denigrating all who don't believe or vote the same as he, by claiming they who don't are denigrators.


At least akdennis is pithy and non-hypocritical. (goes to personal preferences. *click* Ahh, the personal deity of solipsism. I_9 no longer exists)

Geist762
06-02-2007, 04:39 AM
Damn boy, I asked who was right, north or south, nowhere did I mention religion in that sentence.

Again, who in the fuck was right, north or south.

It is really a simple question.


Read the book: "The South Was Right!"

scaldwellk
06-02-2007, 05:14 AM
Where did the earn your way to heaven come from? Any Christian can tell it is a gift from God. No one can stay sin free. Only Jesus was able to do that.

7.62Blaster
06-02-2007, 08:35 AM
Read the book: "The South Was Right!"


I've read quite a few books on the subject.

Fact is, the south was right. Period.

The Southerners were fighting for independence from an oppressive central government laying purposefully heavy taxes and attempting to cut off trade to the south. The issue of slavery was not even mentioned until 18 months of fighting had passed.

"If I thought this war were about slavery, I would end my commision and hand over my sword to the other side" Mr. Grant himself.

Then, when they finallly lost, they were only allowed back into the union after they were forced to ratify the 14th amendment, which has been used for the last century and 40 some odd years to allow politicians to break the law. Of course, teh south had no choice, it was joing, or be destroyed. Blackmail at it's best.

Geist762
06-03-2007, 09:31 AM
Here's another book that has good southern stories.

Vigilantes of Christendom by Richard Hoskins

machinisttx
06-03-2007, 05:30 PM
Unfortunatley, you, just like 16r40 must not get out of the house much.

Damn near every Christian(almost always conservative) that I have ever met, that would be tens of thousands in my time, has been a good meaning, kind, a generous person. Period.

The socialists would have you believe we are all fat greasy sleazeballs thumping you over the head with our Bibles demanding you believe in Christ.

Just like creatures of folk lore, these Bible thumping, radical Christains are rarely seen. Except by those who rarely get out of the house and into the real world.
I've run into quite a few of those radicals. I work with one as a matter of fact. That being said however, they aren't representative of the whole.

Since I can recall nothing in my personal study of the Bible which says God will have me answer for the transgressions of another, I could care less about how or who they worship, or if they worship at all. Arguing with them is a lost cause and wasted time.

Illuminos_9
06-03-2007, 10:11 PM
Where did the earn your way to heaven come from? Any Christian can tell it is a gift from God. No one can stay sin free. Only Jesus was able to do that.


Many of today's Christians believe they can commit all the sins they want, and do so with impunity, because of the fostered misconception that being "Saved" is all that's necessary to get to Heaven.

No one is safe to do as they please without repercussion. We must atone for our sins (no matter how mundane) and be remorseful for our trespasses against God, Earth and Mankind.

Faith in Jesus (or any of the other prophets who came before Jesus) is not a "get out of Hell free" card... We have to earn our blessings by doing what is right according to Jesus' (or Buddha's, or Muhammed's, etc.) example, whether it is inconvenient for us or not. We will all fail at perfection, but if we strive for it we have done our best.

People have to take stock of their own lives and keep their own score. Be sure that God (by whatever name) will have a full account of our deeds, right and wrong.


I_9

synisterrabbit
06-04-2007, 08:10 AM
jesus,mohammad,moses,mr. peanut. its all equal to me.




well maybe not mr. peanut. HE'S REAL!