Plain talk about AK decision

[godzilla]

Hi folks, I'm a long time gun owner but finally in the market for an AK. I've done as much research as I can but never having owned this type of rifle before I'm still a bit confused.

I think I'm going for a SAR-1, based on price and reliability. That could change based on your responses. In plain english, what's the best bet for a newbie like me? What's the difference between a milled receiver and a stamped one? Why do I check if the gas tube is canted? Where is the gas tube? What's the difference between single and double stack magazines? Are the more expensive rifles from places like Arsenel, Century, Global, etc. worth the cost and qualtity or should I stick with private auctions of SAR-1's. Can I modify an AK with a new skeleton stock, 30 rd. mag, etc. without trouble from ATF? What do you all like as a starter AK? Basically - HELP! I am far from an expert here, and don't want to invest in something that I will regret and there seems to be a ton of options.

Thanks in advance!

-Godzilla

[Texas Patriot]

I'll try to answer as much for you as I can. First off, I think you need to define what you want your AK for, or in other words, what do you plan to do with it. Plinker, home defense, truck varmit gun, etc. You need to understand that AKs are known for reliability, not particularly for accuracy.

Milled receivers vs stamped receivers: Milled are generally more accurate and heavier. Probably better quality, but I can't speak from 1st hand experience, since mine is stamped.

Why check for a canted gas tube: I think you mean the gas block, not the gas tube. Like checking a car if the front end is out of alignment or not. It looks odd, and would just bug me if its not straight. May or may not efect mechanical function of the weapon. Actually, I think front sight cant is a more common problem.

You will find the gas tube between the front of the rear sight extending toward the muzzle and terminating at the gas block.

Single stack vs double stack mags: Single stack mags usually hold no more than 10 rounds whereas double stack mags hold from 5 to 55 rounds, with 30 rounders being most common.

If you want a good price on a SAR rifle, try shopping at gun shows or order on-line and have it sent to a friendly FFL dealer who will transfer to you for a small fee.

Certain mods can be done to AK type rifles, but you need to watch out not to exceed the "evil feature" count. You need to do more research in this site before you try to trick it out too much.

There's more that I could say, but I'll leave room for the real experts to chime in here.

[ReconScout]

This is a really hard question to answer, due to the wide spectrum of AKs available. Do you want something cheap you can play with, or something more costly you can keep long term? If you want something you can bump fire and shoot the fudge out of and just generally have fun with for minimal $, get a WASR hicap or a SAR. If you want a one-of a-kind, have one custom built by a gunsmith. If you want pride of ownership, build your own from a kit. If you want to (and can) spend a little more $, go with an Arsenal or a VEPR. I own a WASR and 2 SAR-2s, and am having a blast with them. In the end it all depends on you and your expectations. If you are the kind of person who needs perfect deep blueing and fancy walnut you will not be as happy with them.

[godzilla]

Thanks so far guys!

As for what I want an AK rifle for, that would be one half defense and one half fun. I have a number of hunting rifles, a shotgun and a .22 plinker and simply want to round out the battery with a solid "assault" rifle. I want something sturdy that will last the long haul, even if in rigorous conditions. Beautifully stained furniture is not my top priority - ability to fire without jamming and hit a consistant 10 rd. group at 100 yards after some practice is.

[Antares]

since one of your requirements is consistent groupings, I will suggest a custom built bulgarian ak-74 in 5.45x39 or one of the SAM-5 series from Arsenal, Inc. These can typically be had in the $550 range, but the quality is typically much better than the romanian SAR series.

When buying, remember to set aside an extra $100 for mags, and another $100 for your first case of ammo.

[Packrat]

To repeat, it depends on what you want, but (unless this is to be your only one, and that's not likely) I'd go with a SAR unless you can live with the pistol grip stock. A WASR is cheaper, but will cost more if you want to make it into an AK (in appearance).

A SAR, half a dozen mags (or 2 pouches, 4 per pouch), and a case of ammo will get you started--maybe $450. If you can find a used one at a good price, go for it; they don't wear out, and as soon as you take it out of the box, yours will be used. Some of the older ones may have the canted sights or gas blocks; look at the rifle from the front, with the sight sticking straight up, and see if the rest of the rifle looks twisted. If so, pass. If the sight looks good, see if the gas block (the next piece on the barrel, on top) lines up with it. Then pull the action open, real slow, and let it back the same way. (It might stop instead of going forward; no problem. Force it, then keep letting it go slowly.) See if it drags either way. If not, deal on it. If it's a dealer, see what kind of a deal he'll cut for mags and ammo along with it.

You'll also get an argument about calibre: 7.62x39 vs. 5.45x39 vs 5.56x45 (.223, the current military round in the US). The 7.62x39 rifles are more common and cheaper, the magazines for them and 5.45 are about the same (and cheaper than 5.56), and 7.62x39 ammo is cheapest. That makes it seem to me that 7.62x39 is the way to go, but others differ.

The recoil of all of them is light enough that 12 year old kids all over the world use them. They have about the same power as a .30-30 (and soft-point [SP] ammo is available), so you can hunt with them in most places. (Check you own laws for minimum calibre/power and maximum magazine capacity.)

After you get one and shoot it a bit, you can either decide you don't like it and sell it (hardly ever happens), or give it to wife/kids/girlfriend and get a better one, or get one for wife/kids/girlfriend. (I'd be careful about supplying one to both wife and girlfriend; might get out of hand.)

Another way to go is the Saiga rifle. It is an AK-74 modified to look like a hunting rifle. It is available in 7.62x39, 5.56x45, or 7.62x51 (.308 Winchester, the previous military round of the US). The 7.62x39 is available some places for under $200 new. A few minutes work will convert them to use AK magazines, and for under $100 you can make it look like an AK. Plus, they're nice little guns just the way they are.

Anyway, you can hardly go wrong, whatever you buy. I'd just start cheap. (And then you can start thinking about building your own!)

[DoubleA]

Thanks so far guys!

As for what I want an AK rifle for, that would be one half defense and one half fun. I have a number of hunting rifles, a shotgun and a .22 plinker and simply want to round out the battery with a solid "assault" rifle....

I don't think you mean an assault rifle since it means Class III stuffs. Anyway, for a good AK, the Arsenal Inc. SAM7 (7.62x39) is a good one. It is a milled receiver with Bulgarian barrel which is hammer forged. Similarly, an SSR-85 from Global Trades/Arsenal USA is a very well made AK, but with a stamped receiver. Either will consistently shoot a good group at 100 yds. Either will ding you between $500-$600. A good priced AK right now is probably the SARs, they do the same job, may be not as accurate, but at 1/2 of the cost of the others. Which ever way you go, AK that accepts double stack magazine is strongly recommended (no sense of getting a single stack Klintonized AK.) BTW, for most people, a semi-auto AK will last a lifetime and beyond.

[ZOID ZODIAN]

Having owned at least one and sometimes several of just about every AK made, I can honestly say that I consider the SA M7 series made by Arsenal Inc to be the finest example of the AK-47 rifle on the market today. According to the K-VAR catalog, a Bulgarian Arsenal milled AK in the factory's museum in Kazanlak Bulgaria fired 300,000 rounds (that is NOT a misprint!) before being retired as a matter of policy by the company.

A stamped receiver, in contrast, may only last between 15,000 rounds for a cheap AKM to 50,000 for a Yugo or Chinese with the thicker receiver stamping.

Sure, the milled Bulgarian is roughly double the price of the stamped Romanian SAR's, but it is also more likely to last forever. Arsenal has stated that its goal is to make rifles that will still be shooting decades from now.

As a little extra tidbit, according to an old back issue of Gun World magazine, Mr. Kalashnikov himself visited the AK-47 factory in Bulgaria on one of the few occasions in which he was allowed to leave the Soviet Union. To my mind, there is no finer endorsement than to have the designer of the gun visit the factory.

[oldjarheadfart]

Sar's and Wasr's are the cheapest factory made AK's out there, but QC is lacking in them. If you want QC at a cheap price, buy a kit and receiver shell and build it. It's not hard at all. Kit's can be had at $90(AMD65) and receivers at $40 and up. My first AK was a kit, and the next 5 were also kits. I won't buy a factory AK now that I know how easy it is to build.
OJF

[Packrat]

I've seen several SARs that were used for bump-firing that were in the 15 000 rnd neighborhood and still going strong. In fact, the only SAR I've seen fail had the US trigger break.

You make it sound like General Kalashnikov was restricted. He's a showpiece for Communism. Several years ago he was here for the SHOT Show, and they got him together with Gene Stoner. He was also trying to convince Congress that they could save money switching to AKs.

[ZOID ZODIAN]

I've seen several SARs that were used for bump-firing that were in the 15 000 rnd neighborhood and still going strong. In fact, the only SAR I've seen fail had the US trigger break.

You make it sound like General Kalashnikov was restricted. He's a showpiece for Communism. Several years ago he was here for the SHOT Show, and they got him together with Gene Stoner. He was also trying to convince Congress that they could save money switching to AKs.

My quoted figure of 15,000 rounds is in fact, the mil-spec standard for the Hungarian AKM. At this point, SAR's PROBABLY last in the 20-50,000 range, although I know of no one who has come forward that has fired that many rounds.

As to Mr. K being restricted, note that I described the period concerning the old Soviet Union. There is no doubt that Mr. K has been outside Russia several times since the Soviet Union became the CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States). The issue of Gun World does not give any idea of the exact time frame in which Mr. K visited Bulgaria even under Soviet restrictions, but one has to assume that it could have been anywhere from the 1950's (when the milled receiver was designed) to the end of the Soviet Union circa 1990.

As an add-on, a writer for GUNS magazine visited and interviewed Mr. K at his home, and presented him with the gift of presentation-grade K-BAR knives--something that would have hardly even been possible under the Soviet Union.

So times HAVE INDEED CHANGED! :)

[Packrat]

Yes, I believe a group from AK-47.net visited him recently. He seems to enjoy visitors from all over, probably because they are usually gun enthusiasts. And he is still working, though he's pushing 90, if not past it. I would love to meet him myself.

I don't know if he was restricted earlier--he seems to be a good Communist (though he may have just been a good Russian--he designed the AK for the protection of the Motherland, not for the Party). But he was apparently working , though I've never heard of anything he designed or assisted with lately. I don't know how he felt about the AKM, but he was vocal about the 5.45x39 being a mistake, one he blamed on the US and the Soviet designers that felt it was necessary to copy the 5.56x45 round.

[NineseveN]

There's a lot of good advice on here, but I'll add my 2 cents...


Personally, I went for a VEPR-K in 7.62x39mm. It doesn't look like a traditional AK, but that's kinda what gives it the charm it has. I shoot great groups with it, have gone through 10-12 firing sessions (300-600 rounds per session) and not cleaned it and not one jam/malfunction. But, it does shoot better after a good cleaning (like all firearms). It is heavy, but if you're into FAL's, then that shouldn't be much of an issue for ya.

However, if you have the scratch, check the KTR-03v from Krebs. It's like a hybrid Vamlet/Galil/AK-47. Great sights, AK reliability, good accuracy and is just something amazing to shoulder. I admit, they're pricey, but it's worth it if you have the scratch.

Can't go wrong with anything suggested thus far though.

Good luck and let us know what you decide on.