Saiga Drag Stock Letter from ATF

[LESchwartz]

To whom it may concern:

I am writing to request clarification regarding the ATF’s current legal stance regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. These rifles have appeared in the marketplace in large numbers in 7.62x39mm, .223, and .308 calibers. If any of these questions are inappropriate for your office, please simply refer me to the appropriate organization. I have one specific question regarding Saiga rifles, and one more general question:

Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a “thumbhole-style” stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC § 925(d)?

Note that if the answer differs depending on the caliber, please identify the correct answer for each of the three calibers identified above.


With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39(c): Is a thumbhole-style stock counted as a buttstock, as a “pistol grip”, or both?

Note that my question is narrowly focused on correctly “counting”.

While it is not my desire to cause your office any unnecessary workload, given the potentially serious consequences of even inadvertent violations of Federal Firearms law, I am left with little alternative. I have been unable to locate clear answers to these questions despite extensive research. And thus, I sincerely appreciate your efforts in responding to this letter.

Sincerely,

LESchwartz


U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives

NOV 1, 2005

903050:ELG
3311/2005-663

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB’s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that “no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.”

These parts are tabulated below:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under § 922(r). However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a ‘thumbhole style” stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922(r).

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39(c): Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a “pistol grip”, or both?

Answer: Both: The “thumbhole stock” about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c) (formerly 178.39(c)).

Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Two important points: First, on Saiga's drag & t-hole stocks require the 10-or-less-parts game be played. Second, drag and t-hole stocks count as two parts.

Larry

PS: For an image of the actual scans, see: http://www.victorinc.com/images/ATF%27s%20Saiga%20Response%20-%20Pg%201.jpg & http://www.victorinc.com/images/ATF%27s%20Saiga%20Response%20-%20Pg%202.jpg.

[allesennogwat]

Yes the thunbhole stocks are now considered pistol grips.Now the standard Saiga only takes a 10 round magazine but it is detachable.The good news is those that bought rifles IMPORTED with thumbhole stocks can now add seperate pistol grips without US parts.

[LESchwartz]

The good news is those that bought rifles IMPORTED with thumbhole stocks can now add seperate pistol grips without US parts.
That's a stretch . . . There's no way I would recommend such a thing w/o an ATF letter on the subject.

Larry

[allesennogwat]

Well a thumbhole stock is a pistol grip or it isn't.The thumbhole stocks have now been ruled pistol grips.

[LESchwartz]

Well a thumbhole stock is a pistol grip or it isn't.The thumbhole stocks have now been ruled pistol grips.
Since the days of the old 1994 AWB, ATF has said that t-hole stocks have pistol grips. What they don't have is a separate pistol grip. And it's the separate pistol grip that is prohibited on AK's with more than 10 imported parts. The question I posed in this letter was focused on counting . . . it would be unwise to read much more than that into ATF's reply.

What is unusual is that low-cap WASR's are legal with drag stocks, but low-cap Saigas are not. I've been told that ATF has a "point system" for what they will allow . . . maybe different point values are assigned to double-stack low-caps verses single-stack low-caps . . . what is clear is that ATF views Saigas slightly different than other AK's.

Larry

[allesennogwat]

Originally,the thumbhole stock was not a pistol grip.If I read it correct the regs said "protruding pistol grip".I don't remember "seperate".A lot of the Romanian post ban AK's have US parts even with thumbhole stocks,10 round mags.The Saiga has no US parts.As of right now there is no legal difference in pistol grip and thumbhole as there was before.

[allesennogwat]

Okay now I've found the dates and it has very little to do with the 1994 ban.In 1989 the thumbhole stocks were not pistol grips and this allowed high cap import rifles.American made rifles were completely exempt.In 1993 the parts count went in to effect before the 1994 ban.This meant the total parts count not just the receiver was important.1994 was the AWB.In 1998 thumbholes were ruled the same as pistol grips.BUT imported rifles with thumbholes still require the parts count to convert to pistol grips as they wouldn't be importable with a pistol grip and the parts count went in to effect in 1993.Before the parts count of 1993 only rifles with American made receivers could have pistol grips.It's difficult to enforce the "grandfathering" of the thumbhole stocks now that thumbholes are legally the same as pistol grips and this is after importation prior to 1998.They claim if it wasn't for grandfathering these rifles they would be banned.

[LESchwartz]

In 1998 thumbholes were ruled the same as pistol grips.
Do you have a reference?

They claim if it wasn't for grandfathering these rifles they would be banned.
Is the "they" in this context ATF?

Larry

[allesennogwat]

Do you have a reference?


Is the "they" in this context ATF?

Larry


I'll have to locate the reference.The "they" is the firearms community assumes this because with a true pistol grip it wouldn't have been importable at the time it was imported but would now be a violation with the thimbhole now considered a pistol grip.Because this would now be a violation they are assumed grandfathered but illegal to change to a true pistol grip because this would have previously not been allowed.

The ban on receivers and barrels being imported is a few years old but was not enforced until recently.

[allesennogwat]

http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/Page10.html

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bardsks.htm


http://www.simonov.net/letters.htm


http://members.aol.com/vennarcd/Gun_SKS_MOD.html

[LESchwartz]

http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/Page10.html
This reference letter does not say that a thumbhole stock is the same as a pistol grip . . . it says that you can't assemble a rifle that uses hi-cap mags from imported parts, and that changing from a PG to a thumbhole constitutes "assembly".

Each time a rifle is “assembled” it needs to conform to Title 18 USC § 922(r). Think of it sort of like “bringing your house up to code” whenever you do a major remodel on your home. When a is capable of using detachable magazines, no “assembly” can be done without resulting in a rifle that is capable of using detachable hi-cap magazines — a restricted feature.

The other references refer to 922(v) -- the sunset 1994 AWB, and not for 922(r) the import assembly ban.

Larry

[allesennogwat]

Yeah I know it's not all of them.Thumbholes are now legally considered pistol grips.TIt's been this way since 1998.There iare the high cap semi auto regs,the detachable mag semi auto regs and these aren't all the same and came at different times.I'm not certain about converting from 10 round detachable to high cap but there is another reg dated 1993 that doesn't including any restrictions or require any permission but it does require for any semi suto rifle converted from fixed mag to detachable mag that ATF must be notified but it's not restricted.This includes American and foreign rifles.Found out about this one converting Garands to BM-59's but also applies to SKS to AK mag conversions.

[allesennogwat]

This says detachable magazine not high cap.Capacity has nothing to do with this letter.

As defined in Section 921 (a) (30) (B) , of Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), the term “semiautomatic assault weapon” means a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -





(i) a folding or telescoping stock;



(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;



(iii) a bayonet mount;



(iv) a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and



(v) a grenade launcher.

[LESchwartz]

This says detachable magazine not high cap.Capacity has nothing to do with this letter.
The Soupbowl letter is is in regards a MAK-90 -- thus magazine capaity thas everything to do with this letter. The letter makes a whole lot more sense after reading the "determination" of the 1998 "sporting study" (see: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/assault/pdf/determin.pdf).

As defined in Section 921 (a) (30) (B) , of Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), the term “semiautomatic assault weapon” means a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a bayonet mount;

(iv) a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

(v) a grenade launcher.
Two points:

1) This was part of the 1994 AWB, which is now sunset.

2) This was what I meant when I originally said that "since the days of the old 1994 AWB, ATF has said that t-hole stocks have pistol grips." What t-hole stocks do not have (and the "import ban", which includes 922(r) & 925(d)(3) prohibits) are so-called "separate pistol grips". (For more info on the "import ban" see: http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html#_Toc98250432 and http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html#PG_DISCUSS.)

Larry

PS: This is why it's so weird that T-hole stocks aren't allowed on Saigas . . . it's because they should be . . . that's why I say that ATF must have some-sort of "point system" for rifles like they have for pistols.

[allesennogwat]

That was before the 1994 ban.The import ban was 1989 and soon afterwards was the parts count.During the first part of that ban any rifle with an American made receiver was exempt.Go back and read the letter in my post.It says detachable mag and 2 of the features.Those features include features that were totally banned during the 1994 AWB.

[LESchwartz]

That was before the 1994 ban.The import ban was 1989 and soon afterwards was the parts count.During the first part of that ban any rifle with an American made receiver was exempt.
. . . and now that the 1994 AWB has sunset, we're back to just the import ban. Which was modified in 1998 to ban imports of rifles which could use hi-cap mags.

Bottom line, here's the current state of affairs:

AK imported parts + seperate pistol grip = NON-IMPORTABLE (hi-cap & pg).
AK imported parts + thumbhole = NON-IMPORTABLE (hi-cap).
Lo-cap (single stack?) AK imported parts + seperate pistol grip = NON-IMPORTABLE (pg).
Lo-cap (single stack?) AK imported parts + thumbhole = IMPORTABLE (wasr).


Yes the thunbhole stocks are now considered pistol grips.Now the standard Saiga only takes a 10 round magazine but it is detachable.The good news is those that bought rifles IMPORTED with thumbhole stocks can now add seperate pistol grips without US parts.
What I see you doing in your original post is telling folks that on their imported rifles, they can throw away their t-holes and add PG's w/o US-parts. Nothing could be further from the truth. First, ATF doesn't consider t-holes as seperate PG's. Second, 922(r) applies whenever mods are made, import date has nothing to do with it.

This is a very dangerous thing to be telling folks . . . if you're wrong, your fellow board members are exposed to possible time in "club-fed". I would want ATF confirmation that I can make this change to my 2002 WASR w/o US-parts.

Over and out.

Larry

[allesennogwat]

At first, the ATF interpreted the pistol grip was a separate part. In response, manufacturers began making thumbhole stocks, where the pistol grip, or hand grip, was not a separate part, to comply with the ATF ruling. However, the ATF later changed its mind, and interpreted "pistol grip" to mean, basically, whatever part a person holds, whether separate or part of the buttstock.The parts count was before the AWB but the interpretation of a thumbhole stock being pistol grip just happened to be during the AWB but the pistol grip feature was a rule before the AWB and only the interpretation changed.Now with the AWB sunset thumbholes are still pistol grips.